Not signed in (Sign In)
Categories
Welcome, Guest
Want to take part in these discussions? Sign in if you have an account, or apply for one below
-
Top Participants
-
Feeds
Advertisements
Vanilla 1.1.10 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.
-
Here is the unedited text of the e-mail we geekback in this special. Your regularly scheduled podcast will resume Monday.
While I applaud the idea of not buying bootlegs and not pirating after something is licensed, the real thing hurting anime DVD sales is people not buying DVDs. The quote/unquote rule of fan-subs is, if you enjoyed watching a show you should buy it. Not if you LOVED it, not if it CHANGED your life, but if you just liked it and were entertained. No matter what, the U.S. anime industry is not like the Japanese industry. The U.S. doesn’t get to rely on advertisers for their revenue. For the most part, they have to rely on us, the fans. So while renting anime is all well and good to see if you like the show, shouldn’t the same rules apply? Because otherwise while it might not make people feel as bad, it is just as hurtful to the industry. And since most DVDs are well priced, even cheap, it’s not too hard. I also here complaints about the price of U.S. anime DVDs. But if you really think about it, $30 is a good price for 4 or 5 episodes. I remember paying $30 for two episodes of Cowboy Bebop on VHS. Now, I’m not saying that is right, but anime is a niche market so it seems ludicrous to expect the same price on the DVDs as the latest Spiderman movie on DVD. Anyway, what I’m getting at is we all need to buy more anime. Period.
Kate -
This person is obviously mentally challenged. $30.00 for less than 8 episodes is highway mother-fuckin' robbery.
-
I buy the Avatar DVDs and I get 4-5 episodes for $12.
-
People are too used to getting reamed over Anime DVD's. Anybody who is paying those prices deserves it. Look at the American TV shows on DVD and how much they cost. The only place you can find shows as expensive as anime is when you look at HBO original shows. For anything else you are paying ~40 dollars for a season of a current show. And it's always less then five dollars per episode. I'm not sure what's driving the pricing in the anime market other then stupid fanboys, but I don't get how they can get away with this pricing scheme where anime costs so much per episode.
-
I honestly didn't think I'd ever hear something like this. My friend was able to buy the WHOLE Witch Hunter Robin series at Otakon for $30. That's 26 episodes. Add in the shiny pins she got with it and that's about a dollar an episode.
Kate, you will obviously not improve the human race. Just die. -
Posted By: bunnikun
Kate, you will obviously not improve the human race. Just die.
Okay, we know that she's super wrong but isn't adding that too harsh.
Anyway, 30 bucks a DVD. Not my style. I wait until conventions or online sales to get my DVD's.
Now if they sold anime in the price format of those Avatar DVD's mentioned a lot more people would buy anime. As long as the companies stick to what they're doing, fuck this! Rent, con sales, borrow. Anything but buy directly from them or a chain store. If anime was say 10 episodes for 30$, I wouldn't mind so much.
I guess this special came just in time with the Geneon thing. People said it was their own practices that made them fall and not just sales or piracy. -
-
CommentAuthorGreatTeacherMacRoss
- CommentTimeSep 27th 2007
It is the responsability of the company to cater to its customers. It is never, EVER the customers responsability to prop up an industry. Any company that insists that their customers HAVE to purchase anything or that their customers should expect to and must pay higher prices or make a purchase at all is stupid and deserves to fail (see Airline Industry). Companies do not have a right to make money, or a right to customers. They serve US, period. -
-
She brought up the Japanese industries and it seems like she is saying they have it easier as far as marketing goes. Well of course they fucking do they see it on fucking television. People watch the show when it's on, then if they enjoy it they buy the god damn DVD's. I know Japanese DVD prices are ridiculous and all but that's their own god damn fault. Why the hell should I be forced to pay some awful amount for something that is put on television in other countries. If the US anime industries wants to boost DVD sales start showing good shit on American television without crap edits and at a decent fucking hour. I buy seasons of American television shows all the time after I've seen it since it's a decent price, I can watch what I liked and get other people to start watching the show too. How can we be expected to go spend 30 bucks on a few episodes if we haven't had a chance to see it already? You don't pay 30 bucks for a movie ticket to see something do you?
Sorry if any of that came out unintelligible. -
Posted By: bunnikunMy friend was able to buy the WHOLE Witch Hunter Robin series at Otakon for $30
That's WAAAYYYY too much for that show. -
The quote/unquote rule of fan-subs is, if you enjoyed watching a show you should buy it.
I was never aware of this rule. Sounds like this is something coming from a fangirl/fanboy perspective. It's my money. If I really enjoy the series, I'm going to buy it. If I thought it was mediocre and only entertaining, my dollar is going to other things. Period. There are way too many anime shows being fansubbed for anyone to afford buying them after watching them. That's absolutely ludicrous. Your heart maybe in the right place of supporting the anime industry, but it lacks sense.
Also if you think people should buy anime, what about those who watch the anime on tv such as the Anime Network or Cartoon Network? It's the same as you said as renting? I'm paying a service to my cable provider (Comcast) and I can use the On Demand feature to rewatch anime episodes over and over at my leisure. What is your reasoning to this? I'm not going to buy a DVD for an anime that I am already paying my cable company that provides me this service.
I also remember purchasing VHS and DVDs for $30 each with very few episodes on them. Yeah, it kinda sucks, but at the same time, I would rewatch those episodes repeatedly to make it worth the money. Sometimes when I go into a Best Buy or Frye's I see anime box sets of anime that I either individually bought the DVDs as they came along, or bought the box sets as a greater price and get a bit irked. However, when I think about it, it's money I already spent, I'm never going to see it, I have already watched those DVDs many times, so there is no use in crying over spilled milk. Plus, as an example: The Azumanga Daioh DVD set. They came out with a thinner pack for $40. I remeber buying the first DVD with the box for around that price and then buying each DVD after that for around $20. Was it worth it? You bet it was. You know why? One reason and one reason only as Scrym mentioned in the podcast: merchandise. If you purchased the old box set with the rest of the DVDs separately you got a cute pin of various characters of the anime: Chiyo-chan and the cats. I have them all. They are cute and adorable and in my opinion worth the money I spent on them. -
Posted By: islandergirlro The quote/unquote rule of fan-subs is, if you enjoyed watching a show you should buy it.
You are aware WHY people SAY "Quoute/unquote", right?Because you don't say " "
"fansubs" is what you mean. xD
-
Kate made a few good points but I disagree on two points.
- $30 a dvd is too much, I remember paying that during the vhs days but times have changed.
- People who rent are helping out the us anime industry, just not as much as those who buy the discs outright of course. Netflicks or whoever do buy the dvds they rent out and will continue to expand their anime library as long as their customers show interest.
Posted By: Pilitusyou look at HBO original shows. For anything else you are paying ~40 dollars for a season of a current show. And it's always less then five dollars per episode. I'm not sure what's driving the pricing in the anime market other then stupid
This is one place where Kate is right, The U.S. doesn’t get to rely on advertisers for their revenue. For the most part, they have to rely on us, the fans. Shows like the Simpsons, Sopranos and Firefly already made $$ while being aired on television so they don't need to charge that much for the season boxsets in order to turn a profit. On the other hand most anime that aren't aired on Adult Swim or other tv channels have to make $$ only through their dvd sales so of course they have to charge more to break even. Yay for common sense? -
Posted By: Kite
This is such a narrow minded assumption, and maybe it's a point we didn't make clearly enough in the show. The fact that they rely on the charity of the customer to make money is not an unchanging fact of life. It is a decision made by the company to follow a particular business model. If they decide to follow such a business model, as many niche geek business ventures seem to do, they do not stand a very high chance of success.
This is one place where Kate is right,The U.S. doesn’t get to rely on advertisers for their revenue. For the most part, they have to rely on us, the fans.Shows like the Simpsons, Batman Beyond and Firefly already made $$ while being aired on television so they don't need to charge that much in order to turn a profit. On the other hand most anime that aren't aired on Adult Swim or other tv channels have to make $$ only through their dvd sales so of course they have to charge more to break even. Yay for simple common sense?
It is not customers who should buy products they don't want to prop up a company with a faulty business model. It is the job of the company to change its business model so that people will want to give them their money. If anime companies "don't get to rely on advertisers for their revenue", and don't have other sufficient sources of revenue other than the charity of fans willing to buy overpriced DVDs, then it is their fault if they go out of business. There is nothing stopping them from changing their business model to open up other revenue streams. There is nothing stopping them from changing their product, or marketing their product, in new ways.
If you are a company, and people are buying your product only out of guilt, you are in trouble. Look at Apple, people want their products badly. They don't buy iPods because they feel guilty that not doing so will contribute to the demise of Apple. They actually want iPods. If anime companies want to make money, they should make something people actually want very badly instead of relying on the charity of the guilty anime fan. -
I was hardly defending the anime industry's business models and saying fans must buy dvds, I was pointing out why it currently costs more to buy anime than HBO shows.
-
Posted By: KiteI was hardly defending the anime industry's business models and saying fans must buy dvds, I was pointing out why it currently costs more to buy anime than HBO shows.
Yes, that is why it does, but it doesn't have to. -
Good luck with that, I can see many ways the anime industry can cut costs but I don't see anime dvds being price competitive any time soon.
-
-
CommentAuthorKate Monster
- CommentTimeSep 27th 2007 edited
It is weird to me that people feel the need to prop up the Anime industry in America. It isn't like the industry is dying, it is far stronger than it was even just 5 years ago. Also, even if Anime companies stop distributing in the US, fan-subbers have shown that Americans can have access to anime, period. Even back in the VHS days, when anime was difficult to come by, it could still be obtained. Now, with DVDs, CDs, and Torrents, it will be all the more readily available. In fact, to follow this argument to its logical conclusion - if the Anime industry stops releasing to the U.S., I will never have to pay for Anime again, as it won't be licensed in the United States, and I can download it for free (or for minimal cost to a fan-subbing service). Now that is not what I am advocating, I am just pointing out that Anime fans do not owe the industry anything. We are the consumers, obviously their product is not worth paying what the industry is setting for its price. They need to lower their prices, or add content that makes it worth the price (I am not saying more "extras", I mean more episodes per DVD). Anime and Manga (yes, Manga too) is priced far higher than I am willing to pay on any regular basis, particularly for the quality of show that is commonly released in the U.S. market.
Just for the record... I am NOT the Kate that wrote that e-mail. -
-
-
CommentAuthorSemi-Random Omnutia
- CommentTimeSep 27th 2007
Surprisingly, no "This isn't charity .. this is SPARTA!" reference made.
If Scrym ever have trouble thinking of a show to do just think of what annoys you most about a particular genre and rant about it. -
-
Three words...
Economy of scale.
Anime DVDs are always going to be more expensive than mainstream DVDs. -
- CommentAuthorcosmicenema
- CommentTimeSep 27th 2007
Posted By: KiteThis is one place where Kate is right,The U.S. doesn’t get to rely on advertisers for their revenue. For the most part, they have to rely on us, the fans.
I've seen anime on TV for years. There are even commercials during the shows!
So why are anime DVD's more expensive than other foreign DVDs? There aren't too many TV shows that make it here for sale on DVD but the ones that do (British mostly) are often times cheaper than American TV shows. The movies that come out here (from virtually every country that makes movies) are always on par with American films. Why is Japanese film and anime any different? -
Posted By: kilarneyEconomy of scale.
Jack up your scale instead of jacking your customers. -
- CommentAuthorcosmicenema
- CommentTimeSep 27th 2007
Posted By: Apreche
I didn't realize you were such a marketing proponent!Posted By: kilarneyEconomy of scale.
Jack up your scale instead of jacking your customers. -
Posted By: Apreche
Is there enough of a customer base to support jacking up one's scale? I'm not picking sides here - I'm just curious about the logistics. I don't know how large the average print run of TV series season would be, and I also am unfamiliar with the average audience size of an anime series would be.Posted By: kilarneyEconomy of scale.
Jack up your scale instead of jacking your customers. -
- CommentAuthorcosmicenema
- CommentTimeSep 27th 2007
Posted By: xenomouseIs there enough of a customer base to support jacking up one's scale?
There are two factors here. Production costs and volume for DVDs is not really a significant impact because the fixed costs and variable costs are covered fairly easily.
The second factor to increasing your customer base is marketing. This is something anime companies in general seem to be experts at failing. You use marketing to increase your 'market size'. I think this could be done but there's a disconnect. There is are two kinds of people who watch anime: those that know a lot about it and eat up everything Japan, and those that see it on TV but may not even understand it's anything other than a somewhat adult cartoon. We need to connect these groups by educating the later. This shouldn't be too hard since you have them in front of the TV, a relatively captive audience for advertising. I think the industry is moving this direction (been to a Hot Topic recently?) but it's taken a while, and they aren't moving very quickly.
That's the attack I would take anyway. Turn mediocre customers into star customers. -
Geek companies seem to have one major thing wrong. They keep trying to sell to people who are already buying. Marvel and DC makes comics that sell to superhero fans. ADV, Funimation, Viz, etc. make a product that appeals largely to existing anime fans.
Nintendo is the only smart company so far. They gave all the geeks the finger. They made a product to sell to moms, old people, kids, and everyone else who doesn't give a shit about video games. Geeks still bought it anyway, because they'll buy anything. Meanwhile, now the Wii is #1 in sales of the new generation despite inferior graphics, actually making a profit on the hardware, etc. Every other company with geeky customers needs to take a lesson from Nintendo. Sell your geeky wares on the mass market to make big $$$. Niche markets will always be poor by definition.
To get rich, stop being niche.
I'm a poet, and I didn't know it. Seriously, total accident. -
Posted By: Apreche I'm a poet, and I didn't know it.
That one inspired me to tears. -
You have to love that Cogswell Pepperbox has become an inside joke for the entire anime podcast community.
-
Posted By: AprecheJack up your scale instead of jacking your customers.
Anime is never going to be as popular as major network television shows. That's why it's on the Cartoon Network, and not NBC. Hence, you will never achieve the economy of scale that major network DVDs do. That's just the reality. -
Posted By: kilarneyAnime is never going to be as popular as major network television shows. That's why it's on the Cartoon Network, and not NBC. Hence, you will never achieve the economy of scale that major network DVDs do. That's just the reality.
I submit that anime is not as popular as major network TV shows because it is on Cartoon Network instead of NBC. Throw some Cowboy Bebop on the prime time, and you'll see some magic happen. -
Posted By: AprecheI submit that anime is not as popular as major network TV showsbecauseit is on Cartoon Network instead of NBC. Throw some Cowboy Bebop on the prime time, and you'll see some magic happen.
The USA would take a day off in the week to watch a Cowboy Bebop marathon were it to be aired on a major network. -
Posted By: AprecheThrow some Cowboy Bebop on the prime time, and you'll see some magic happen.
It would be awesome, but the networks would cut out stuff because it was deemed "controversial" or "violent" or "illicit sexual content". >.< -
Posted By: islandergirlroIt would be awesome, but the networks would cut out stuff because it was deemed "controversial" or "violent" or "illicit sexual content". >.<
Umm, wtf? Even Heroes is more violent and sexually explicit than Cowboy Bebop. -
Yeah, I agree, but I just have a feeling they would find that one scene where Faye Valentine looking for a bounty, and she stumbles upon the two guys in bed together. I was thinking that scene in specific.
-
I am sorry but I am with her. I am a college student paying his own tuition, working as a part-timer and fully enrolled, and I can still affor the stuff that I like without hurt my wallet. You just need to budget yourself and get priorities.
I will say that podcasting make it a lot easier for me to enjoy stuff and find the good stuff. I have not time to watch anime or download anything, but then again there not much good out there most of the awesome stuff is old anywas. I mean Tekkaman Blade that comes with 3 DVD for 19.99 is a steal and that series is awesome.
I downloaded the first 25 ep. of Monster but at the end I erased tham after watching 4 because I can buy the manga. I used to watch Kotetsushin Jeeg raw but I stopped at episode 4 because I want to wait for someone to pick it up and buy it, because that anime was awesome.
I know Geneon had some pretty cool titles, heck I even bought New Getter Robo because Daryl Surat told me so and I thank him for it because that anime is awesome. But it also had some pretty horrible titles that did not deserved to be bought (ex. Koi Kaze) That company was for the super hard core anime fans. It is kind of sad to see them go just when the were starting to get a old of the business ( I mean Black lagoon was going for less than 24$ in the internet).
I applaud Tezuka Productions because they are doing the right thing, selling the ep cheap in iTunes, I really do not care is they have DRM. I would buy it cuz it is from Tezuka and he can't do not wrong (call me a Tezuka fanboy, I do not care cuz is an honor :) I hope Geneon learn from this little "big" company and maybe put some of it licenses online it is not late for them.
If you like what you watch and you have watch all of it buy it once is release here (even if it is a thinpack). If you watch part of it as a preview and liked get it from Netflix. If you have watched all the episodes of a horrible anime then don't buy it and I am sorry you wasted your time.
Buy the good stuff, but at the same time be a smart buyer and get informed before buying.
Thank you Rym, Scott, Daryl, Clarissa, Gerald, Dave and Joel for not making me waste money on bad anime. You guys are definately that 1% of the internet that does not suck.
-
Posted By: islandergirlro Yeah, I agree, but I just have a feeling they would find that one scene where Faye Valentine looking for a bounty, and she stumbles upon the two guys in bed together. I was thinking that scene in specific.
I was thinking of when Faye walked in on that dude (that looked like a lady) while he was showering. -
Ooh yeah that one too. I forgot about that episode. My point is that networks might find that too controversial even though they already do show stuff that I would say is similar if not worse.
-
Posted By: islandergirlroMy point is that networks might find that too controversial even though they already do show stuff that I would say is similar if not worse.
Yeah, it seems there are too many decision-makers who don't understand that cartoons aren't just for the kids. -
Posted By: AprecheI submit that anime is not as popular as major network TV showsbecauseit is on Cartoon Network instead of NBC.
Bull. If the market was there, NBC would air anime. After all, FOX has very successful cartoons - so it's not like a major network would be blazing new territory. Sorry... but you've lost some perspective here. -
I think part of the reason is that there is a stigma attached to anime. Most "normal" people see all of those "weird" geeks talking about anime and think that it must be some avant garde/ insane Japanese thing. It's almost as if there is a sense of xenophobia surrounding it.
-
Posted By: kilarneyBull. If the market was there, NBC would air anime. After all, FOX has very successful cartoons - so it's not like a major network would be blazing new territory. Sorry... but you've lost some perspective here.
All the animation that FOX shows are sitcoms that lampoon pop culture. An anime like Cowboy Bebop is a totally different animal. It's just one of those chicken and egg problems.
Anyway, I think a more realistic approach would not be for prime time network, but for HBO. If HBO put Cowboy Bebop, or a similarly awesome show, and pushed it like they pushed The Sopranos, that would rock the nation. It's basically a chicken and egg problem. There's no market because nobody has tried to make it. And since there's no market, nobody will take the risk of trying to make it happen. -
Posted By: AprecheIt's just one of those chicken and egg problems.
Egg was first. Unless you wish to specify exactly what kind of egg you mean. And if you mean a chicken egg, what's a chicken egg? One which is laid by a chicken? One which will result in a chicken? One laid by a chicken and resulting in a chicken? First case, chicken first to lay said egg, second case egg due to evolution, third case, God, to make a chicken to lay an egg which will hatch a chicken.
But I agree that more major networks should expand their audience. I mean, there's absolutely nothing but garbage (not counting the A-team) here on the major networks. MTV once broadcasted anime and japanese movies near midnight. Asian screen. Was awesome... is no more. -
Posted By: NinelessMTV once broadcasted anime and japanese movies near midnight. Asian screen. Was awesome... is no more.
I hate to keep saying this, but don't you realize why it is no more? They didn't get ratings!
This isn't a knock against Anime - it has nothing to do with the quality of the product. It's just that you folks think that since you like it, everyone will like it if exposed to it. This just isn't the case. -
Posted By: kilarneyI hate to keep saying this, but don't you realize why it is no more? They didn't get ratings!
Neither did the shows that replaced it, or the shows that replaced them, or the shows that replaced them. True, they didn't get ratings. But there are other factors contributing to the low ratings besides content, like time slot and marketing. MTV didn't exactly push its anime lineup very hard, and few people watching TV late at night turned to MTV. -
Posted By: AprecheAnyway, I think a more realistic approach would not be for prime time network, but for HBO. If HBO put Cowboy Bebop, or a similarly awesome show, and pushed it like they pushed The Sopranos, that would rock the nation. It's basically a chicken and egg problem. There's no market because nobody has tried to make it. And since there's no market, nobody will take the risk of trying to make it happen.
For an anime on HBO to even be remotely successful, it would have to be created in Japan specificity for US consumption, appeal to both the niche and the mainstream US audience and be released in the US first and have a significantly larger animation budget then current anime that shows on Japanese TV. Then it's only about a 50/50 chance of it even being a marginal success. You have to remember the shows on HBO that actually succeed are ones about a family of mobsters or a group of middle age women talking about relationships. Shows on HBO that are good but do not appeal to the mainstream don't even find their audiences on HBO like "Carnivale" (lasted two seasons because the critics liked it), "Deadwood" (same), "Rome" (they had invested so much money on this and it didn't get great ratings, so they hoped a second season would find an audience), "Dead like me" (was on Show time). The only reason shows work on channels like HBO is that they can show mature content but they still have to appeal to a segment of the mainstream that are looking for mature content that still appeals to the mainstream or are extremely cheap to make (like Bullshit) or appeal to a very broad niche audience like Weeds (stoners).
I would be hard pressed to find anything Anime related that could even attempt to appeal to an US audience on anything but late night Cartoon network. Other then shows that appeal to kids on a broad level like Pokemon. Space Cowboys are niche even on Cable channels. British Sensibilities don't even appeal to a prime time audience here, the Japanese don't stand a chance! -
I'm not making a field of dreams argument here. It's not like if you put the show on at the right time and spend the money on it, it's a guaranteed hit. What I'm saying is that there is basically a 0% chance of it being a hit if you keep it on the down low. If you actually try to go large, you've got maybe a 25% chance of making it, but at least you tried. There's no way to make it big if you don't go for it.
-
I could see Baccano! being on HBO and doing well. It's just too violent enough to not be on regular TV, and its about 1930's gangsters in the US, and we already know HBO viewers like gangsters.
-
Posted By: KieyI could see Baccano! being on HBO and doing well.
That's what I thought when I read:Posted By: CremlianYou have to remember the shows on HBO that actually succeed are ones about a family of mobsters
!!!
@ Kilarney: Yes, I know why it is no more. Don't sound so horribly condescending. And besides, afaik, I'm the only Dutch person on the board here. And Dutch MTV != your MTV. Anyways, Scott is right. Stuff like being broad casted at midnight. When most normal people sleep for they have to get up early for whatever. Heck, I only saw the end of Jin-Roh and a few movies on there. I heard that they had broad casted some Cowboy Bebop. But I did not know that MTV was doing that. Anything that gets decent ratings at midnight is either porn or very very advertised and made of true awesome. -
Posted By: NinelessAnything that gets decent ratings at midnight is either porn or very very advertised and made of true awesome.
Or stars David Letterman or Jay Leno.
Unless those shows are doing worse than I thought... -
There's this show on Fox late Saturday night after Mad TV called Talkshow with Spike Feresten. It's at a horrible time slot, but it's actually a pretty good show (e.g. - Comedy for Stoners). Because it's in a horrible time slot, barely anyone (at least barely anyone I've met) knows anything about it.
-
I think you guys forget that most of the anime you know and love from Japan, actually plays at midnight there..