This forum is in permanent archive mode. Our new active community can be found here.

Basketball!

Basketball is my favorite ball based sport. I grew up in one of the best eras for basketball, the Jordan era, and to this day I enjoy watching basketball and playing basketball video games. If there are any other b-ball fans out there, I'd enjoy talking basketball here and sharing videos. I was inspired to start this topic by the Korean Basketball League starting up. You can follow them on the SpoTV Youtube channel.

and here's some high quality college basketball as well:

I'll look around and see if I can find some classic games to enjoy later.
«1

Comments

  • A quick search provided a couple of prime 90s Bulls games

    and
  • My usual basketball nerd dump:

    Skeptical sports, AKA why Rodman is the best rebounder ever. This is a MASSIVE read. Dude writes for FiveThirtyEight now.

    Zach Lowe and Kirk Goldsberry are the best guys I've seen for breaking down individual plays and strategies, and basketball data viz.
  • I played and watched basketball through primary school and high school. The hype of basketball started dying off when the cable channels got all the rights and less people went to the local competitions. I started watching again a few years ago but had to stop when I noticed the soccer like - "I've fallen down and hurt myself give me a free throw and the opposing team a foul.

    However I have no team to root for any more, it's harder than esports for me as I have no regional connection and my favourite players to watch keep changing teams. Whereas back in the day I would watch every Chicago Bulls and New York Knicks.
  • Basketball is boring. I can respect basketball players and their skills, but the sport is just boring as all hell to watch. They get baskets constantly, so none of them are individually exciting. In baseball, hockey, football, and soccer scoring is much more rare, so you can lose your shit every time someone puts points on the board.

    Also, basketball is subjective. Yes, most sports have the refs making subjective judgments for penalties and such. In hockey you always get that penalty once a game where the ref calls tripping or something, but the player just fell on their own. But in basketball you've basically got a foul on every single play. You rarely get the intense action of going up and down the court without stopping because someone's gotta take some foul shots.

    And the travelling rules are basically unenforced.

    And the game was originally created a century ago for short people. And the game is such that height is a tremendous advantage, compared to other sports. Players got bigger, but the game did not adjust. They haven't raised the rim or increased the size of the court, and that made the game even more boring to watch.

    Despite all this, basketball is actually a terrific game to play. Just about anyone can play it. There are nets and balls everywhere. The things that make it boring to watch actually make it better to play. Constant scoring? That means everyone on the team is getting to touch the ball, take shots, an contribute. Teams might score often, but individual players don't, so you can be excited when YOU score. With at most 10 players on the court, there is something for everyone to do at all times. In baseball you can be stuck in the outfield doing nothing. In basketball you can at the very least prevent an opponent from getting open.

    Basketball is also strategically very shallow. Pure athleticism is the most important factor in separating the champs from the shmos. Strategy matters, but very little. You win because you have the best and strongest uninjured players on your team, not because you ran the triangle or something.
  • Re: strategy, you might be surprised, Scott. There's definitely teams that Play To Win The Game (spurs, rockets, warriors), and those that don't (sixers, kings).

    And in what sport is "be/have the most athletic dudes" not a dominant strategy?
  • Starfox said:

    Re: strategy, you might be surprised, Scott. There's definitely teams that Play To Win The Game (spurs, rockets, warriors), and those that don't (sixers, kings).

    And in what sport is "be/have the most athletic dudes" not a dominant strategy?

    The not playing to win of the Sixers and Kings has nothing to do with on-court strategy. It has to do with the meta strategy of getting more balls in the draft lottery. Since having one great player matters more than anything the coach can do.

    In NFL football, the coaching matters more than the players. There are some really bad teams out there with amazing players. The Texans have JJ Watt, probably the best defensive player in the game. But he can't win games.

    Meanwhile the Patriots over there with Bill Belichick win games no matter who is on the field. When Brady couldn't play and Matt Cassel took the field he performed surprisingly well. His performance in those games created the illusion that he was actually a talented QB so many other teams have tried to pick him up. Even the Cowboys just now picked him up. But really he sucks, it's just that Bill's coaching matters more more than the athleticism of the QB.

    Piece of shit Michael Vick was probably the most athletic QB out there, but he's got 0 rings. The Manning Bros. are in good shape, but are by no means super athletes. They have 3 rings between them.

    Ovechkin is the most athletic player on the ice today, can't win. Gretzky was the greatest ever, but he couldn't win a cup for the Kings on his own. NBA players can win championships pretty much singlehandedly.
  • It's not a game entirely dominated by tall players. Sharpshooters like Reggie Miller or Stephen Curry can make or break a game, and last minute 3 pointers are as thrilling as anything in sports.
  • Did you watch any of the finals? LeBron is the best basketball player on the planet. Couldn't win.

    JJ Watt may be the best defensive player in the game today, but he's a D end. Doesn't matter nearly as much as having a not-scrub under center.

    The Sixers are trying to tank, but the Kings, well, they just suck :) I just named them as prototypical bad teams. How many losing teams end the night with nobody fouled out? How often does somebody switch to zone for three possessions? The majority of teams sit back on D to pack the paint. Come out and trap super-aggressively once or twice a quarter.

    Almost nobody does these things. They just keep trying the same shit and losing.
  • It's not a game entirely dominated by tall players. Sharpshooters like Reggie Miller or Stephen Curry can make or break a game, and last minute 3 pointers are as thrilling as anything in sports.

    So only watch the last minute of the game. Or make the game just one minute long.

    Also Steph Curry is 6'3". As far as basketball goes, he's no Manute Bol. But if you see someone who is 6'3" walking down the street, the first adjective most people would use to describe them is "very tall". Michael Jordan was 6'6".

    There was only one Muggsy Bogues. There probably won't be another one ever.
  • Yeah, he's listed at 6'3" but that's... probably a lie.
  • Starfox said:

    Yeah, he's listed at 6'3" but that's... probably a lie.

    I'm listed at 5'11". If you measure me as soon as I wake up, I'm 5'11". At the end of the day... way less. Not a lot of basketball games take place at the crack of dawn. You never see him at his tallest.
  • No, like they straight-up lie. Guy X listed at 6'9 might be 6'6 IRL.
  • Starfox said:

    No, like they straight-up lie. Guy X listed at 6'9 might be 6'6 IRL.

    5'8" is the average male adult height in the US. He's taller than 5'8". The average NBA player height is 6'7".

    The point is that being tall in other sports can help. If running is involved, it helps to have longer legs. In football a tall QB can see over the linesmen. A tall receiver can go up and get the ball over a shorter defender.

    But in basketball, just being taller helps as much as having mad skills. Teams keep giving extra chances to players like Greg Oden. He's a flawed player and very injury prone. But someone 7'+ on the court is such a huge advantage they'll keep putting in the effort to get him out there.
  • I'm just not persuaded that it's qualitatively different than any other sport. Only super fats are going to be NFL linemen. Only super short people are world-class gymnasts. Even Danny Woodhead is 5'8" 200 lbs. That's not a tiny human being.

    Are you arguing for height classes in basketball?
  • Starfox said:

    I'm just not persuaded that it's qualitatively different than any other sport. Only super fats are going to be NFL linemen. Only super short people are world-class gymnasts. Even Danny Woodhead is 5'8" 200 lbs. That's not a tiny human being.

    Are you arguing for height classes in basketball?

    No. I'm saying they should make a bigger basketball court and raise the rim. The game was designed for short people, and the game did not change to accommodate the increased height of players. The game needs to scale up or down to accommodate the size of the players.

    Also, height in basketball is much much more powerful in basketball than physical characteristics in other sports. Imagine a basketball game where 9 players average height and one player is 7'+. The entire game will be a joke. Funnier than the Harlem Globetrotters.

    If you go to a gymnastics competition and there's one really short person they might have a genetic advantage, but they still need a ton of skills. They also won't turn the entire competition into a joke.
  • The modern game certainly is different, but I'm not sure the changes are for the worse. I think I would like a wider court so corner threes are the same distance, but it's not like Naismith's game is some platonic ideal of put-ball-through-hoop games.

    What do you think would happen in a football game with 11 regular size guys and Adrian Peterson? It would be Bo Jackson Tecmo Super Bowl.
  • Only of that one player is super athletic and able to block. Otherwise, skilled players will shoot from around him. Yes, on offense he will be attacking the rim constantly, but can he shoot free throws?
  • Only of that one player is super athletic and able to block. Otherwise, skilled players will shoot from around him. Yes, on offense he will be attacking the rim constantly, but can he shoot free throws?

    Even I can shoot free throws. It's ridiculously easy. It shocks me how many professionals who do not have any other job besides basketball are so bad at it. There's nobody defending you. The net is straight in front of you. It's free. Just put the ball right in.
  • The best player to watch and see how well Scott's idea works out right now is Sim Bhullar. He's a 7'5" player who was with the Kings and their D League team, the Bighorns. He's very good inside as you would expect but needs to develop his footwork.
  • The best player to watch and see how well Scott's idea works out right now is Sim Bhullar. He's a 7'5" player who was with the Kings and their D League team, the Bighorns. He's very good inside as you would expect but needs to develop his footwork.

    In the D league he's still up against other professional basketball players who are above average height. What if all the other players were under 6'?
  • Scott, that's not a persuasive argument. What if $PRO played $SPORT against normal humans? Every single one destroys the competition.
  • Starfox said:

    Scott, that's not a persuasive argument. What if $PRO played $SPORT against normal humans? Every single one destroys the competition.

    Let's say that there is an ice hockey game. All the players on the ice are in the same general skill range, but one player on one team is very tall, or very strong, or has very long arms. One of these things may provide a slight advantage to that team, but nothing shocking.

    Now have a basketball game. All players are roughly the same skill level. But one player on one team is 7'+ and all the others are under 6'. The advantage of the team having that tall player is tremendous (I stumbled into this pun, but then I embraced it).

    This speaks to two problems in basketball. Height is extremely advantageous. But also that teamworks matters little. One single player can carry the rest of the team on their back.
  • I think this summarizes your position: height matters so much in basketball, to the extent that other attributes (strength, speed, ballhandling skill, shooting, etc.) are irrelevant, at least to a first approximation. Is that a fair characterization?

    Supposing you accept that, what makes "height is advantageous in basketball" a problem? How would altering the rules to de-emphasize height create a better game? (For some value of "better")
  • Starfox said:

    I think this summarizes your position: height matters so much in basketball, to the extent that other attributes (strength, speed, ballhandling skill, shooting, etc.) are irrelevant, at least to a first approximation. Is that a fair characterization?

    Supposing you accept that, what makes "height is advantageous in basketball" a problem? How would altering the rules to de-emphasize height create a better game? (For some value of "better")

    It's not that the other skills are completely irrelevant, it's just that the height advantage in basketball is more significant than genetic advantages are in other sports.

    To make height less powerful, raise the rim. There should be no easy points for anyone, regardless of height. No easy dunks and layups. you have to shoot, and it rarely goes in.

    Make the court bigger to give more room and more distance to cover, making speed more important than it is now. Also, give 5 points for half court shots (which will be even further than the current half court. This forces the full court press on every play, instead of just settling in on the half court.

    Also, decrease the points awarded for shots close to the basket. Congratulations, you made a layup. Alright, you get one point. Good for you.

    Enforcing the traveling rules as strictly as they did for us when we were kids. This forces even the tallest players to dribble the ball down to the ground where a player of any height can steal it, even during a drive to the basket.

    Enforce fouls more strictly and less subjectively. If you want to, you can even punish them more severely. If scoring is less common, you can do away with free throws. Just give them a power play like hockey.

    Also, the game should be played in sets. Play matches that are 5 minutes long. First team to win 5 wins the game. If only the last few minutes of basketball are exciting, then let's make it always the final 5 minutes! It's exciting the whole way through. Even if you get blown out by a whole bunch, the spectators aren't bored the rest of the time sitting there. As long as you are still playing, it will be exciting again soon.
  • Apreche said:

    It's not that the other skills are completely irrelevant, it's just that the height advantage in basketball is more significant than genetic advantages are in other sports.

    As the average height of a player was stated at about 6'7", then those are the people that play. (Kind of like jockeys in horse races). Dwayne Wade and Lebron James are both disadvantaged by the height argument. By having the standard height, when a taller player goes up to lay up or dunk the ball either can also jump up and smack the ball into the backboard so it doesn't go into goal. The tallest players tend to play defensive roles. Yet Rajan Rondo is a paltry 6' yet was one of the better offensive players, simply being able to do great shots and get around taller rivals.
    Apreche said:

    Also, decrease the points awarded for shots close to the basket. Congratulations, you made a layup. Alright, you get one point. Good for you.

    I agree with this.
    Apreche said:

    Enforcing the traveling rules as strictly as they did for us when we were kids. This forces even the tallest players to dribble the ball down to the ground where a player of any height can steal it, even during a drive to the basket.

    Enforce fouls more strictly and less subjectively. If you want to, you can even punish them more severely. If scoring is less common, you can do away with free throws. Just give them a power play like hockey.

    I really want the rules enforced more strictly, it's what made me stop watching both times.
    Apreche said:

    Also, the game should be played in sets. Play matches that are 5 minutes long. First team to win 5 wins the game. If only the last few minutes of basketball are exciting, then let's make it always the final 5 minutes! It's exciting the whole way through. Even if you get blown out by a whole bunch, the spectators aren't bored the rest of the time sitting there. As long as you are still playing, it will be exciting again soon.

    This is pretty interesting, the racquet sport like approach would be interesting. I think it could apply to baseball and American football.
  • Rondo can't shoot. Guys don't even guard him.
  • Rocket League uses the "always last 5 minutes" format. It works great.

    I think with Basketsball each 5 minute set should be all with the same players. No substitutes within a set.

    Also I think there could be some experimenting with increasing the points for each free shot after a foul, to stop the constant fouling in he last minute when behind, always hoping to the player will miss one of the free shots, then make up the difference with a two point or three point shot at the other end once the clock starts again. First foul, one point per shot. Second foul, two points per shot. Third foul, three points per shot.
  • The increase is only per five minute set though.
  • Starfox said:

    Rondo can't shoot. Guys don't even guard him.

    You mean guys can't guard him, his entire game revolves around stealing, passing and flustering opponents who are physically his superior. (This is how I remember him, I haven't seen a recent game).
Sign In or Register to comment.