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Japan's dirty secret

edited January 2007 in Everything Else
So many people on these boards talk about the utopia that is Japan. No doubt, Japan has a lot going for it. I've spent enough time there, though, to see some real problems. Alcoholism, domestic violence ...

What bothers me the most is the amount of xenophobia, which is a polite way of saying racism. This website has some interesting examples of businesses that ban foreigners. (Fortunately, the tide is slowly starting to change.) Still... in my opinion it's no better than having a sign that says "Whites only."

Comments

  • edited January 2007
    Every country has its problems. Japan's culture just produces a great deal of media that is very awesome for geeks.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • edited January 2007
    Every country has it's problems.
    Seems a little dismissive when we're talking about racism.

    You know that if a country is 50 years behind us when it comes to race relations - that can't be a good thing.

    Like I said, Japan has a whole lot going for it. I've always been treated with nothing but respect when I have been there. Nonetheless, it's something that I feel is ignored - and something that I desperately wish would change. Maybe it hits close to home because I've seen a group of Japanese people in Tokyo gang up and beat the cr*p out of a black guy (I believe Nigerian.) It was not a pretty sight. And yes... I saw the whole thing... there was no justification for the assault. The black guy was just walking down the street. A police officer was there and just looked the other way. It's something that I'll never forget.

    To be sure... this was a rare and isolated incident. Nonetheless, it showed a dark underside of Japan.
    Post edited by Kilarney on
  • Japan has lots of dirty little secrets, its a highly regulated and rigid society which, while it can be awesome, is highly fucked up.
  • Don't forget the fact that most of the Asian countries are still somewhat hostile towards each other.
  • edited January 2007
    Kilarney, serisouly man get off the soap box. America is still racist, drive down the street you'll see a group of people beating up some person. And you know what bothers me the most about your little story about the "Nigerian" (who for all you know could have been American ) getting beat up? You did nothing, you are no better in my eyes than the Japanese police man who turned a blind eye. So you know what get over it. And here's a secret, racism isn't exclusive to Japan... EVERY country has racism. Open your eyes.

    (sorry that was a bit harsh, but I had a nice long post all written up all politely and what not and a forum hiccup or internet hiccup ended up deleting it, so I'm not happy that it got erased, but my post is what I was saying in the nice long polite one in a nutshell"
    Post edited by Corbin on
  • edited January 2007
    In Kilarney's defense, there's a difference between being sympathetic and being an idiot. Taking on a street gang is not particularly smart. At least a policeman is paid, trained and equipped (well, ideally) to deal with that sort of thing and can call back up.

    Japan is pretty bad when it comes to racism. The problem lies in how deep-rooted xenophobia is in Japanese society. For example, in Australia it's very difficult to lead a normal life without having to interact with other cultures (thus we learn things! And how to tolerate them!). In Japan (and many other countries) living a normal life can easily lead to having dramatically skewed and incorrect views of other cultures. It's not a problem exclusive to Japan - that doesn't make it any less (potentially) nasty.
    Post edited by Mamath on
  • edited January 2007
    Kilarney, serisouly man get off the soap box. America is still racist, drive down the street you'll see a group of people beating up some person. And you know what bothers me the most about your little story about the "Nigerian" (who for all you know could have been American) getting beat up?
    I was waiting for someone to say this. America has severe problems when it comes to racial issues. However, there are a couple distinctions.
    - In America, we don't have "Whites Only" signs. There may be institutional racism that has the same effect... but those signs came down 50 years ago.
    - Call me naive, but I don't think that the police in America would stand by idly if a bunch of white people started beating up a black person. (I am saying this as a general proposition.)
    - I believe the person was Nigerian because that's what they guys beating him up were calling him. And give me a break, I'd be crazy to jump in. If the police officer didn't make a move, do you really think that I, as a tourist, should have done so? That's just absurd. I'm sure my 2 year old son, who I was walking down the street with, would have appreciated it. I guess I should have just left him in his stroller.

    I'm just pointing out that as much as I love Japan, I am troubled by the racism that exits there. I'm not sure what's so controversial about being troubled by racism? Mitsukai, I'm actually kind of shocked that you would take offense to those feelings.
    Post edited by Kilarney on
  • edited January 2007
    - Call me naive, but I don't think that the police in America would stand by idly if a bunch of white people started beating up a black person. (I am saying this as a general proposition.)
    No, I'm sure in a some places in the US the police will actually be the ones doing the beating. To their credit, most cops would not sit idly by, but you hear/read about police brutality especially among the black population quite commonly. (Also racism isn't just isolated to black people as unfortunate as that is)
    - I believe the person was Nigerian because that's what they guys beating him up were calling him.
    So if someone was beating up a Hispanic person and calling them black, that would make them black?
    - I believe the person was Nigerian because that's what they guys beating him up were calling him. And give me a break, I'd be crazy to jump in. If the police officer didn't make a move, do you really think that I, as a tourist, should have done so?
    Do you want my real answer? YES, you should have done something... ANYTHING!!! If you were at all concerned for the man being beaten, you should have done something. The very least you could have done was yell out, because the most likely of things to happen would have been that the men would have stopped beating the black guy, and the policeman would have at least reprimanded the group to save face in front of you. It is that feeling of "Oh well it's not my problem if no one else is doing something" that makes that kind of thing continue to happen. Have you ever heard the saying "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" ? Well you did nothing. It wasn't just you it was all the other people just watching the scene as well, and all it took was one person yelling out.
    I'm sure my 2 year old son, who I was walking down the street with, would have appreciated it. I guess I should have just left him in his stroller.
    I'm sure your 2 year old son would have been safer than the black man. And you know damn well that the policeman would have done something if he saw something happening to the stroller.
    I'm just pointing out that as much as I love Japan, I am troubled by the racism that exits there. I'm not sure what's so controversial about being troubled by racism? Mitsukai, I'm actually kind of shocked that you would take offense to those feelings.
    There is nothing wrong with being troubled by racism it's a horrible thing. And if you think that I'm taking offense to those feelings you really don't get what I was saying at all. What I am taking offense to is you titling a whole topic "Japan's dirty secret" and pointing out racism as Japan's biggest flaw, while you have no right to judge others. Yes racism is a horrible thing, I'm not denying it, but to label it as Japan's dirty secret, as if it is exclusive to Japan??? That's not naive, that's ignorant, and down right preachy.
    Post edited by Corbin on
  • edited January 2007
    So if someone was beating up a Hispanic person and calling them black, that would make them black?
    Mitsukai,
    It would help a lot if you read carefully what I wrote.
    In my original post I said that I "believed" he was Nigerian. I gave you the compelling evidence as to why I "believed" that - and yet you take issue with this. Apparently, there is no pleasing you. I never said that he was Nigerian, and yet you want to argue this point. You give me a headache.
    If you want even more justification for my "belief", this incident took place in the Roppongi district (at about 7:00 am), which has a Nigerian community. (see this article.) I have seen this community first hand. I suspect you haven't been there - yet despite having no first hand knowledge of the incident or area, you are quick to pass judgment as to an entirely well grounded belief.
    Do you want my real answer? YES, you should have done something...
    We'll have to agree to disagree. I suspect that when you have children you will understand that my first and foremost concern was the protection of my child. You may disagree with my assessment of the situation, but that's the reaction any parent would have.
    What I am taking offense to is you titling a whole topic "Japan's dirty secret" and pointing out racism as Japan's biggest flaw, while you have no right to judge others. Yes racism is a horrible thing, I'm not denying it, but to label it as Japan's dirty secret, as if it is exclusive to Japan???
    Once again, it would be very helpful if you took the time to read carefully what I wrote.
    Since when did I say that racism is Japan's biggest flaw? I said that, of the problems I have seen, it bothered me the most. However, I never suggested that it's Japan's biggest flaw. For all I know, their biggest flaw is something entirely different. I was just passing along my personal anecdotal observations.
    Secondly, where did I ever say that racism is exclusive to Japan? It's frustrating to debate someone when they don't take the time to read. In fact, I specifically said that the USA has severe racial problems. Go back and read - you'll see where I said that.

    Here is the bottom line... There is a ton of attention given to racial problems in America, South Africa and other countries. You rarely here about racism in Japan. That is why I chose the title of this thread. Japan is arguably one of the most xenophobic countries on the planet, yet little mention is made of this. Please forgive me if I did not title the thread: "Here are some thoughts I have about Japan, but really I don't have a right to have these thoughts, and probably what I am saying is totally wrong."
    while you have no right to judge others.
    When it comes to racism, I absolutely will judge others.

    So... take a deep breath... allow others to have opinions... and take the time to read what I actually posted before firing back.
    Post edited by Kilarney on
  • edited January 2007
    "Here are some thoughts I have about Japan, but really I don't have a right to have these thoughts, and probably what I am saying is totally wrong."
    As long as you can admit that you're wrong we're all good ^_~

    Oh and you suspect wrong, I have been to Roppongi ^_~ nice try though.

    (I'll admit I fell into his bait, and I don't feel this warrants my time, or effort in posting in it anymore. I'm just tired of the whole soapbox routine, if you want to be ignorant fine, I will concede that you have that right)
    Post edited by Corbin on
  • edited January 2007
    The website you linked is Debito's, who is an American who became a naturalized Japanese citizen and is one of the more radical and outspoken crusaders for gaijin rights in Japan. He collects these signs from many people - these are not exactly something that you would see every day. Both times I lived in Japan, I never experienced any sort of malicious behaviour and would say that if one was to compare the Average American's knowledge of Japan to the Japanese's knowledge of American culture, the American's would be scant in comparison. That is not to say that Japan is a perfect place and that these stories of racism are false...there have been cases, especially involving onsens (Debito's main gripe - because some gaijin don't know how to use the public bath properly and caused a ruckus, a few onsen stopped admitting all white people. I like his idea that they should just distribute a brochure and say failure to abide by the rules results in expulsion.) If you want more documentation on Debito and human rights of foreigners in Japan, I can send you quite a few articles I collected and some course materials.

    Even though posting such signs is forbidden by law in America, I remember when less than ten years ago that Denny's got into hot water for its discriminatory practices against African Americans. I hear my roommate talk about the comments that people make about Muslims, and the stereotyping and bigotry against gays and lesbians I hear every day. The only difference is that in Japan there fewer explicit laws concerning the posting of such beliefs. Japan has a long way to go in regards to feminism and racial discrimination, but is is making progress. Americans must realize that they still need to make progress too.

    *edit* I went back and read that story about the Nigerian...yikes. However, I still hold my point...here in New York, the cops get in trouble for beating up black guys for no reason too. What is wrong with people...aiyah.
    Post edited by gomidog on
  • Perhaps it's a bit dismissive of me, but why does the racism in Japan surprise you so much? I've always felt that it's pretty obvious that there are a lot of xenophobic and extremely (relative to the US) conformist tendencies in Japanese society. Not all of it is immediately obvious, no, but I shouldn't think it so surprising. Deplorable and requiring justice, yes, but not surprising.
  • I think Kilarney has a valid point in bringing up a flaw of Japanese society. Pointing out flaws however does not necessarily need to be a jingoistic value judgment.
    I think the average US anime fan is fully aware that our own country has many, many problems, but it is easy to forget in our fandom fever that the country we love so much is in no way ideal.

    In being a conscious consumer of media I think it’s important to understand the context of what you encounter. Media has a way of leaking into our brain if we aren’t aware of its possible negative messages. Yes, Japan has problems with racism. Yes, it’s sexist (don’t take it from me take it from the UN, their gender empowerment index rates Japan as something like 60th in world, and for context Korea is 68th, US 14th and Norway 1st). And yes, Japanese society has been much kinder to homosexuals than our own. We have problems; they have problems; that doesn’t mean we can’t try our best to be aware of both when consuming media from either country.
  • That is why I wanna go to Finland! Scandinavian countries are at the top in terms of liberal thought and equality! And they are all Linux-ish to boot!
  • That is why I wanna go to Finland! Scandinavian countries are at the top in terms of liberal thought and equality! And they are all Linux-ish to boot!
    They also put mayo on their fries. Ew.
  • Mayo in fries is pretty tasty.

    Not as tasty as vinegar and/or mustard, but tasty nonetheless.
  • If you're black and you live in Japan, schoolchildren try to grab your penis!
  • If you're black and you live in Japan, schoolchildren try to grab your penis!
    What?
  • Mayo is also use in fresh fries in most countries in south america, we also use it with mostly anything, rice, hot dogs, etc (anything that is good)
  • If you're black and you live in Japan, schoolchildren try to grab your penis!
    What?
    ORLY? That's..... awkward.
  • What?
    A naked American man stole my balloon!
  • edited February 2007
    I thought it was a wiener dog. Sorry. You can have it back.
    Post edited by Jason on
  • If you're black and you live in Japan, schoolchildren try to grab your penis!
    What?
    I think Kid Mission is referring to the "I am a Japanese School Teacher" editorial series on Gaijin Smash. I read most of them back when he was still posting on Outpost Nine... Pretty entertaining. :D
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