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The Microsoft Surface cannot be inovative

edited May 2007 in Flamewars
Ok, you want to clutter the forums,

"You argue that Microsoft sucks and you use MSN and hotmail! Congratulations on defeating yourself."
Funnily enough I like Microsoft, they just seem incapable right now of doing anything new.

I still stand by my conclusion based on what Microsoft has been doing up until this point and shows no sign of changing.
The "Surface" cannot and will not be a cool and innovative product. If it is I will stand corrected and will give £10 to the GeekNights fund or anyone who is willing to pledge the same amount in opposition (this excludes Rym and Scott).

I am not afraid to be embarrassed and wouldn't mind being proved wrong. I want this to be as cool as it can but feel Microsoft is incapable of doing so. I also believe you are incapable of formulating a solid argument to oppose me as you have resorted to simply picking at mine.

The reason for wanting to move out of this thread is to not block it up for the people thinking of cool ideas (which will not come to pass). I am somewhat new here and was unsure whether starting a new thread in flamewars would be a better idea.

I created this new thread to free up the other one for discussion of the product itself.
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Comments

  • edited May 2007
    I still stand by my conclusion based on what Microsoft has been doing up until this point and shows no sign of changing.
    The "Surface" cannot and will not be a cool and innovative product. If it is I will stand corrected and will give £10 to the GeekNights fund or anyone who is willing to pledge the same amount in opposition (this excludes Rym and Scott).
    It's hard to be surprised by innovation when you make up your mind beforehand. Oh, and Straw Man arguments.
    I am not afraid to be embarrassed and wouldn't mind being proved wrong. I want this to be as cool as it can but feel Microsoft is incapable of doing so. I also believe you are incapable of formulating a solid argument to oppose me as you have resorted to simply picking at mine.
    You make bullshit assumptions. I have trouble seeing what is not a "solid" argument from my standpoint. I'm not the one spewing off logical fallacies left and right.

    Oh, and I'm going to assume you surrendered since you dodged my last question.
    Post edited by Andrew on
  • edited May 2007
    (thankyou for copying to the new thread.)

    I make bullshit asumptions do I? Then please tell me what is a "solid" argument or better still, give me an example.
    Stop nit picking and just try and prove me plausibly wrong.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • edited May 2007
    I make bullshit asumptions do I? Then please tell me what is a "solid" argument or better still, give me an example.
    Ok, there is some burden of proof things going on here. I submit that WIP's claim, as well as my own, is not extraordinary. We argue that the Surface has much potential for awesome. I submit that Omnutia's claim is extraordinary. He argues that the Surface can not possibly succeed and has no potential. If my evaluation is correct, and it very well might not be, then Omnutia's claim is the extraordinary one and he must provide the evidence to support his claim.

    Burden of proof aside, you would never ask an opponent to come up with your argument for you in a court of law, would you?
    Stop nit picking and just try and prove me plausibly wrong.
    I feel that has been done quite enough already.
    Post edited by Sail on
  • edited May 2007
    You say:
    Online gaming, emulators and chat functions... oooh innovative. And I can play yet more shooters.
    But seriously, has the XB3 done anything that I cant do or do so well/easily anywhere else before?
    I said:

    What are these other places you talk about? I know of no system, console or PC, that has integrated a friends feature so broadly across such a wide verity of games and genres. You have achievements you can earn by playing games both on and off-line. You have a gamer card that shows how well you have done on the games you owned, as well as your reputation which you can share pretty much anywhere on the web. It has a standard for VOIP which makes it easy to voice chat without third party clients (Teamspeak and Vent for example). It has a store where you can download, demo, and purchase small games with a whole currency system to reduce the number small credit card transactions. This is just the beginning. All on ONE system, hell you don't even have to pay for it. Do tell, where in one system that is released can you do this? Or are you just making broad generalizations without any facts to back them up? Also, if you think the only games the 360 has are shooters, then you really are ignorant. Besides, if that is what sells, whats wrong with them? It's not Microsoft you should blame for the game selection, blame the devs. Most of what Microsoft does is just develop the platform.
    A basic logical argument:
    • Premise: Something is innovative if it creates something that nothing else has
    • Inference: Here are features which no system, other than Xbox 360, has. Therefore Xbox Live is innovative,
    • Conclusion: This makes your argument that says Microsoft as it currently is cannot make something innovative, flawed
    Post edited by Andrew on
  • *Decides to watch flamewar because my whole photoshop Spanish project just crashed... and I didn't save... =(*

    Well, I believe Microsoft's design IS innovative. Simply because it's using a whole new idea in software. Instead of following the basic touch pad idea, it's using a new system. How can it not be innovative if the whole idea is new?
  • edited May 2007
    Question to prove Inference untrue: What, specific feature does the XBOX360 have that I cannot find in any other system before it?

    Idea: Playing games, Voice chat, Cooperative play, Emulators, The buying of content via a computer, etc.. have already been done in other places

    Additional Argument: Microsoft's aim is to make money and innovation usually requires risk. Its current business practices are extremely risk averse (as are many other companies but we are focusing primarily on Microsoft) and not innovating would be in their best interests.

    Premise: Microsoft is taking innovations that have already proven popular and presented them to the public as a whole.

    Inference: there is no feature, or combination of features used together that had not been done before featured in the XBOX360 or any Microsoft product (in recent years) [or in the "Surface"].

    Conclusion: This is not innovation, it is merely repackaging which is not innovation.
    To expand upon this point. Do you see anything in the videos for the surface which suggests innovation?

    I really like this way of arguing.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • I'd like to point out the the X-Box live gamer tag is, except for the achievements, almost functionally identical to Xfire.
  • If it is I will stand corrected and will give £10 to the GeekNights fund or anyone who is willing to pledge the same amount in opposition (this excludes Rym and Scott).
    - What do we need to Correct you on to complete the Conditions of this agreement?

    - If the Conditions are Met, Are you Donating the Equivalent to Ten Pounds in American currency, or Ten Dollars US?

    - Are you willing to Provide Proof of Transaction?

    - Will there be a third party to Ensure fairness in deciding who wins? Will it be a group consensus? Will you be deciding yourself?
  • innovative - being or producing something like nothing done or experienced or created before

    It's a new system. So it's innovative. If you want to get technical, it's innovative whether you like it or not...
  • Again, name me a counterpoint to the argument. The Xbox packaged all of these ideas into one product which has a high level of interconnectivity. Achievement points are new, a gamer tag is new, a currency system specific to the program is new, the soon to be ability of playing between Console and PC games is new. It's not that the individual parts where new, it's the interface and level of immersion that makes Xbox Live innovative. It's the fact that it was the first service to create a system which multiple games can interact with and which unites all the Xbox games under one banner for online services that makes it innovative. It's the fact that they were the first to bring online play to consoles that makes Microsoft innovative. You still haven't shown how my argument is wrong.

    Surface is innovative because it integrates human-object interaction into computing (i.e placing a credit card down and then paying for your bill instantly). Apart from that, you butchered logical arguments on a whole anyways.
  • edited May 2007
    Question to prove Inference untrue: What, specific feature does the XBOX360 have that I cannot find in any other system before it?
    Everything you listed. There is no other console that did it before it. Period.

    If you wanna throw the PC into the mix, same thing. All those things have yet to be integrated together smoothly into one program.
    Additional Argument: Microsoft's aim is to make money and innovation usually requires risk. Its current business practices are extremely risk averse (as are many other companies but we are focusing primarily on Microsoft) and not innovating would be in their best interests.
    You have to take risks in business, sometimes they fail. That is no mistake, that is good business.
    Premise: Microsoft is taking innovations that have already proven popular and presented them to the public as a whole. Inference: there is no feature, or combination of features used together that had not been done before featured in the XBOX360 or any Microsoft product (in recent years) [or in the "Surface"].
    I have already addressed the X-box. Regarding the Surface, yes, they are using SOME proven popular ideas. But none of those ideas have been yet introduced to a consumer market, and nor have any of them demonstrated credit card reading and object recognition. These two are extremely innovative.
    Do you see anything in the videos for the surface which suggests innovation?
    A customer choosing between two cell phones places them both on the Surface. The specifications and features immediately pop up and they can be compared side my side... Bill Gates demonstrates how food in a restaurant can be paid for between two credit cards placed haphazardly on the Surface and shows two unique ways that the tab can be automatically split... A digital camera is placed on the Surface and automatically downloads the photos that can then be worked with...
    Post edited by Sail on
  • If someone is willing to take me up on this I will give the money to one of the GeeKights crew on the condition that they return it upon the release date of the surface unless there is an obvious 1st party function that cannot be found elsewhere else. This will also include real life situations (such as the photos being move around).

    I will give £10 sterling to GeekNights and will expect the equivalent in US dollars to be returned so as GeekNights will not be effected by changes in exchange rates. This is currently stands at around $19.8

    If GeekNights is willing to act as an intermediary I would also ask for one clause to be added:
    Anyone wishing to challenge me must pay £10 sterling to GeekNights should I (or someone else) be able to find the same or similar functionality in some other product.
    This applies only if you can afford it, as to not alienate those with no income.
  • edited May 2007
    What, so now we have to pay money to argue with you? Defend yourself instead of crying and running away.
    Post edited by Sail on
  • Integrated together smoothly into one program.
    Not innovation, I believe I could have achieved the same effect with a pc long before then.

    Object recognition is already done in the areas of bluetooth, Also, there are many innovations that never reach the consumer market. As before I say that already setting up something I could do with effort and people were already doing is not an innovation.

    Risks in businesses are a good thing but Microsoft just isn't in the mood to take them. The Zune could have had lots of cool abilities that could for you have classed as innovations but even though they had been done before were not included (however, the Zune was a hurried product. if anyone thinks that is an assumption I can dig out the windows weekly review with the head of the Zune team)
  • Pfft. I love how Omnutia keeps avoiding our arguments...
  • Sorry, by challenge I meant point out a feature they viewed as innovative.
    And yes If you are going to argue with me for money I do not expect to be giving in for nothing. Also I think the GeekNights people deserve some money for what they do and levering other people seems a whole lot easier than footing the whole bill myself.
  • edited May 2007
    Pfft. I love how Omnutia keeps avoiding our arguments...

    Yeah, its actually kinda fun. but really they are incapable of just presenting me with an argument to prove wrong and accepting it.
    I am just saying that without a shadow of a doubt that when the surface comes out it wont do anything innovative. Microsoft is and will be incapable of innovation until they change as a business. I expect this to come in the lead up to the next version of windows due to a lot of reshuffling but for now there will not be any innovation.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • innovative- being or producing something like nothing done or experienced or created before

    It's a new system. So it's innovative. If you want to get technical, it's innovative whether you like it or not...
    Prove this wrong.

    And I don't see why the business has to change for it to become innovative. Innovation depends on the products made, not the business itself.
  • Not innovation, I believe I could have achieved the same effect with a pc long before then.
    But you didn't. That's why it's called innovation. In fact, that's the very definition of innovation. You could have done it, but you never did it, nor ever thought to.
    Object recognition is already done in the areas of bluetooth.
    Objects like drinking glasses, credit cards, and digital cameras? Uh, yeah, I don't think so.
    Risks in businesses are a good thing but Microsoft just isn't in the mood to take them.
    It would be really sad if I actually had to point out what was wrong with this sentence.
    And yes If you are going to argue with me for money I do not expect to be giving in for nothing.
    So, you're not going to argue unless we pay you? Do you have one ounce of reason in your entire body?
    Also I think the GeekNights people deserve some money for what they do and levering other people seems a whole lot easier than footing the whole bill myself.
    Ok, this is sucking up and trying to get Scrym on your side. This is a whole new low. If you have to bribe someone else into defending things for you, I suggest you shut right up.
  • People were experiencing all the features of xbox and xbox live and just about every other Microsoft product before they were produced by Microsoft.
    Microsoft's current attitude to innovation is to do what it has with the XBOX360 and integrate other popular features.

    and as a trump card:
    Not even Google can find any pages stating a feature that directly links XBOX360 to any innovation.

    the best I could find were the blades which are just fancy tabs.
  • I'm still waiting for you to answer my argument. ^_______^
  • edited May 2007
    "But you didn't. That's why it's called innovation. In fact, that's the very definition of innovation. You could have done it, but you never did it, nor ever thought to."
    People were using teamspeak, people were using IM, people were downloading games. I still wait for the defining feature you see as innovation.

    "Objects like drinking glasses, credit cards, and digital cameras? Uh, yeah, I don't think so. "
    Firstly, RFID but secondly how is selecting a meal with a computer an innovation?

    Sail, calm down and stop trolling. Come up with an innovative feature you see on the surface and defend it as inovative.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • Huh. And look what won the PC World Innovation Award for video games in 2006.
  • edited May 2007
    How is the Microsoft marketplace innovative and/or not a copy of direct2drive?

    Also, in XBOX360, what is the one thing you can pick out as innovative?
    I am still waiting for that one feature. Just one.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • How is the Microsoft marketplace innovative and/or not a copy of direct2drive?

    Also, in XBOX360, what is the one thing you can pick out as innovative?
    I am still waiting for that one feature. Just one.
    This is ridiculous, you keep changing the requirements for us to satisfy your argument. You are intellectually dishonest. I'm done here because you will never admit defeat.
  • Q.
    "innovative - being or producing something like nothing done or experienced or created before

    It's a new system. So it's innovative. If you want to get technical, it's innovative whether you like it or not..."

    A.
    "People were experiencing all the features of xbox and xbox live and just about every other Microsoft product before they were produced by Microsoft."

    Still waiting
  • How is the Microsoft marketplace innovative and/or not a copy of direct2drive?

    Also, in XBOX360, what is the one thing you can pick out as innovative?
    I am still waiting for that one feature. Just one.
    Was direct2drive before or after XBLMP?
  • Sail, calm down and stop trolling. Come up with an innovative feature you see on the surface and defend it as inovative.
    Here's the deal. You are not defending your arguments, not me. Look at this thread. Take a good look. I have answered every one of your points directly, with the quote above it. You have answered few of mine. Very few. ALL of your arguments are fallacious. You have not backed up a single one. You are asking me to come up with the examples for you. You clearly have very little concept of debating an arguing and I think at this point you are only making a fool of yourself.

    I've got things to do right now. You are wasting my time.
  • Q.
    "innovative - being or producing something like nothing done or experienced or created before

    It's a new system. So it's innovative. If you want to get technical, it's innovative whether you like it or not..."

    A.
    "People were experiencing all the features of xbox and xbox live and just about every other Microsoft product before they were produced by Microsoft."

    Still waiting
    This isn't like xbox... at all... Sorry to break it to you, but they're completely different things. I don't know why your so transfixed with the xbox when we're arguing about the Surface. Well, like Sail, I have other things to do, like to finish making my Spanish project on photoshop. So, thing up a GOOD argument that doesn't have anything to do with xbox why I'm gone, 'kay?
  • And the winner WiP! all you had to do was respect someone else's beliefs.
    I honestly consider the surface as being a product with huge potential for innovation (though most likely by third parties) and think the way the XBOX360 puts everything together is incredibly innovative
    and I still think I won this argument as you failed to satisfy any of my requests at which time I would have pulled out and admitted defeat. I still believe your stance to be basically incorrect as the combining or already available and used features into a pre made box doesn't account to innovation.
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