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The Border Fence (USA/Mexico)

edited February 2008 in Politics
I've been seeing a lot of news today about problems with the placement of the border fence in Texas. There is a great line in this article from someone working on the fence project where they essentially say, "If we told you what metrics we are using to place the fence than the illegals would figure out how to get around it."

I know people like to tease Digg for their, "if we told you the algorhythm people would game it" or the old, "I'd tell you but then I would have to kill you" line but this is just ridiculous!

We have contractors building a fence through some people's homes yet bypassing a golf course. We also have people who own land that is on both sides of the international border and the govt. wants to put a fence right through the middle of their property! I was reading one account of a family that used to own 12K acres of land on the border but it has been whittled down to 3 acres after all the wars. (The land was granted to her great-great-great...etc grandparents when Mexico was part of the Spanish empire.

Building the wall is really a "feel good" move by politicians. If they would instead remove the impetus for people to illegally cross the border we would not need a wall.

I'd like to say we should prosecute business owners who hire illegals but you know that never works out because half of them will say they did not know and you will end up with the other half getting punished because the illegal had very sophisticated forged documents. The only thing I can think of that might work is to offer some sort of "migrant worker" visa that allows someone to come up from Mexico to work for a short period of time (perhaps a year or two). We also need to get rid of the "have a kid on American soil and the kid is American and you can not be deported" rule.

I'm all for people coming over the border legally to work and live the American dream but I am not for people coming over the border illegally and not assimilating into the country. I'm also against the idea of illegals having to live in fear of being deported. I'm not entirely certain of how to fix the problems that cause people to cross the border illegally. Is it that bad in Mexico?

We could just use the same policies that Mexico uses on people that cross their southern border but... I hear their system tends to end violently for those crossing the border into Mexico.
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Comments

  • Two words: Land mines. Two more words: Robot ninjas. And three more words: Flaming zombie dinosaurs.

    Out of those three, we should be able to manage at least two of them.
  • I say build a fence to make the border as secure as possible. Then open the legal doors wide open. Put no limits on who, or how many, can come in legally. The more the merrier.
  • edited February 2008
    Actually, Scott, that wouldn't exactly work. There are logistics, and paperwork, involved in the allowing of people to come here legally. Also, I believe that if you are unwilling to learn the language, GTFO. I mean, is it really necessary to have the label of a mayonnaise jar be in Spanish? Have YOU ever seen latin foods involving mayo??? And just why the fuck are we the only country in the world without an official language?
    Post edited by WallyBman on
  • And just why the fuck are we the only country in the world without an official language?
    Because we are a nation of immigrants. Why don't you try to learn another language for a change?
  • I am personally ashamed of England in terms of Bi-Lingual skill. I talk to people from other countries and they usually speak between two and four languages. What is wrong with these white people?
  • And just why the fuck are we the only country in the world without an official language?
    Because we are a nation of immigrants. Why don't you try to learn another language for a change?
    Yeah. There is a significant number of Spanish speakers here in southern California. It's extremely useful to know basic Spanish terms, and most people do because it's really not that hard.
  • Sprechen Sie Deutch? Kenne was ich gespricht?

    I've picked up at least the basics on four languages other than English just by travelling in Europe while in the Army. I also took Latin in high school which helped set the ground work in my head for picking up Romance languages.

    It is a shame that many Americans do not speak more than one language.

    I remember spending a week in Lorette De Marr (I know I butchered the spelling) in Spain and marvelling at the fact that the girls out in front of clubs trying to get people to come in often spoke 5 or more languages, fluently no less! We always told them we were from Canada, we got better deals and were not seen as marks that way.

    The lack of bilingual training in America is a problem, a big problem, but it is not an immigration problem.
  • Honestly? I'd be pretty happy if the world, over time, standardized on one universal language.
  • Honestly? I'd be pretty happy if the world, over time, standardized on one universal language.
    If more people spoke multiple languages, it would speed up that process.
  • Honestly? I'd be pretty happy if the world, over time, standardized on one universal language.
    If more people spoke multiple languages, it would speed up that process.
    Many languages have overlap. I remember having a buddy in the Army who was from the Philippines. He'd go on and on with his wife in Filipino and their would be English words mixed in.

    "Blah blah blah hot dog blah blah blah Cadillac blah blah blah blah Television..."

    If you study the entomology of languages you can see where a new language entered and brought about changes in the native tongue. The reverse can be seen by looking at American English and the Queen's English. Even though those two languages are 95% the same differences have evolved.
  • edited February 2008
    I do know a little bit of several languages. My family, on my father's side, speaks a bit of Portuguese, so I've picked up a little. I spent a lot of time when I was little living in Germany, and I picked it up enough that I was the one who had to translate when we went shopping off-base. And I took a couple years of French. Am I fluent in any of these? No, but I live in FUCKING AMERICA, the most powerful nation in the FUCKING world, yet the only one without the balls to say that we have an official fucking language. We have a commonly accepted language, and it is called English, if you come here, you need to fucking speak it. English, do you speak it, mother fucker? ENGLISH!

    And when I have visited other countries, I spent some time, BEFOREHAND, learning enough to get by. Before, not after, I got there. English is a hard to learn second language, yes, but we ARE the most powerful country in the world, and it has worked damn fine as a language for us.

    You people go on and on about how many languages people in other countries know. How many people speak English around the world? And why can't people coming here be held to a standard of knowing languages? And they are coming here, it is common courtesy to conform to the laws and culture of the residing people when visiting them. If you don't agree, you are basically saying it is okay for me to go to the Middle East and throw bacon at the Jawas.
    Post edited by WallyBman on
  • edited February 2008
    You people go on and on about how many languages people in other countries know. How many people speak English around the world? And why can't people coming here be held to a standard of knowing languages? And they are coming here, it is common courtesy to conform to the laws and culture of the residing people when visiting them.
    I guess we all need to learn Algonquian, Navajo, or any of the other thousands of dialects that were spoken before our ancestors came here.
    No, but I live in FUCKING AMERICA, the most powerful nation in the FUCKING world, yet the only one without the balls to say that we have an official fucking language. We have a commonly accepted language, and it is called English, if you come here, you need to fucking speak it. English, do you speak it, mother fucker? ENGLISH!
    It's this type of arrogant, abrasive attitude that gets the rest of the world pissed off at us.
    Post edited by Andrew on
  • No, but I live in FUCKING AMERICA, the most powerful nation in the FUCKING world, yet the only one without the balls to say that we have an official fucking language. We have a commonly accepted language, and it is called English, if you come here, you need to fucking speak it. English, do you speak it, mother fucker? ENGLISH!
    Dude, chill out. This sounds like the "High School Experience" thread.
  • English is the language of the prevailing culture here in America. If people can't deal with that, fuck them. Look how shittily it turned out for them being somewhere where Spanish was the prevailing langauge.
  • There is a difference between being a "Total Dickwad" and "A Dickwad with an Opinion." It is also called a double standard. You folks lament on how we rude Americans go to other places and expect everyone there to speak English, but you don't see anything wrong with people coming to America who don't speak English expecting to be catered to. It is called being a hypocrite. Don't do it.
  • You folks lament on how we rude Americans go to
    You imply that others, possibly including myself, are not Americans? I'm just stating out bullshit when I see it.
  • I was speaking in an inclusive manner. I know that Rym and Scott are both from this country, along with a lot of the other forum posters. I've heard a lot of people, over time, stating those exact opinions. 'How dare we go somewhere and expect them to speak our language?!?' Then people(some of the same people, it seems) talk about 'why should they have to speak English if they come here?'

    That is the definition of hypocrisy.
  • edited February 2008
    Is it that bad in Mexico?
    The short answer would be yes. But definitively not as bad as some might imagine. I am really conflicted about this mater, I can see why the US wants these problem solved quickly and as efficiently as possible. Not just for the immigrants but because of the amount of drugs being smuggled both ways of the border. But I understand the courage, and sacrifice and the feeling of hopelessness these people have in order to leave everything they know and love behind, in trying to catch a break for their families.
    We could just use the same policies that Mexico uses on people that cross their southern border but... I hear their system tends to end violently for those crossing the border into Mexico.
    We are just as bad or worse with the south border as the US is with theirs.

    Did you know, that the 2nd largest income for México is all the money being sent back by illegal and legal immigrants from the US?
    Did you know, that the 2nd largest city with Mexicans, besides Mexico city is L.A.?

    I agree that this is a big problems, for both countries. But building a wall is not the way, this requires a shift in policy and a level of cooperation that hasn't been seen as far as a I know before.
    Post edited by Double Z on
  • That's a false dichotomy. There's several layers in between fluent and knowing nothing. In a nation which was founded by immigrants you have to meet in the middle on these things. Also, you expect immigrants to be fluent in the language for some arbitrary reason while simultaneously making a blanket statement that all immigrants come here expecting to be catered to. Have you ever even met an immigrant?
  • edited February 2008
    My father was born a citizen of Portugal. I work with a couple guys who got their US citizenship by joining the US military. I understand that there is a difference between being fluent and being able to speak enough of a language to get by in a country via the standard language. I've also seen the guys standing outside the gas station on the way to work asking me if I speak Spanish, in Spanish. It is like the super-fat expecting seats on planes and roller coasters to be wider, since they are too lazy to lose the weight to fit in.
    Post edited by WallyBman on
  • edited February 2008
    I've also seen the guys standing outside the gas station on the way to work asking me if I speak Spanish, in Spanish.
    I've had people on campus asking me if I speak English, in ENGLISH!

    EDIT: English for immigrants


    Post edited by Double Z on
  • Actually, Scott, that wouldn't exactly work. There are logistics, and paperwork, involved in the allowing of people to come here legally. Also, I believe that if you are unwilling to learn the language, GTFO. I mean, is it really necessary to have the label of a mayonnaise jar be in Spanish? Have YOU ever seen latin foods involving mayo??? And just why the fuck are we the only country in the world without an official language?
    Please get off my team.
  • edited February 2008
    Ok, first of all mayonnaise is delicious (salchipapa) and I think it is in spanish just so it sells to the spanish speaking demographic. I mean I speak english and spanish but if I see a jar of mayonnaise that say " Mayonesa" I would think "that is funny I will try that one". It is silly but at least they got me to buy one jar of mayonnaise.

    I now a lot of people that speak spanish at home and english at school or at work. It is our culture, and maybe it will change eventually with different generations.

    However, this thing about why putting spanish instructions on food or other things comes down to money. It is not that corporations do not have balls, the thing is that they like money better. :P

    By the way this is salchipapa
    image
    Post edited by Erwin on
  • Is it that bad in Mexico?
    The short answer would be yes. But definitively not as bad as some might imagine. I am really conflicted about this mater, I can see why the US wants these problem solved quickly and as efficiently as possible. Not just for the immigrants but because of the amount of drugs being smuggled both ways of the border. But I understand the courage, and sacrifice and the feeling of hopelessness these people have in order to leave everything they know and love behind, in trying to catch a break for their families.
    If it's that bad, why don't we, instead of building a fence, just annex the whole country? That'd go a long way towards solving the illegal immigration problem.
  • edited February 2008
    Ok, first of all mayonnaise is delicious (salchipapa)
    Nooo, you don't but "mayonesa" on salchipapa!
    If it's that bad, why don't we, instead of building a fence, just annex the whole country? That'd go a long way towards solving the illegal immigration problem.
    My first thought was "that's crazy." Then I remember about El Salvador, where they stopped using their local currency and went with the dollar since 2004. The USA has the 1st or 2nd largest embassy in Latin America there. El Salvador even sent troops to Iraq on the promise that if, and when they come back they will be granted US citizenship. That sounds very close to assimilation to me.
    Post edited by Double Z on
  • Mexico will never be allowed to join the USA as a state. There are many reasons for this but the easiest ones to point out are economic and political.

    If Mexico were to become a state it would be subject to the same laws American companies currently adhere to in regards to hiring workers and their salaries. Can Mexican companies afford to have to pay their workers a minimum wage equivalent to $6.50 per hour or so? What about infrastructure improvements and other improvements?

    Politically do you really think the American political parties would want to allow Mexico into their system? There are enough Mexicans (100K+) in Mexico to make a third party a very viable entity. Even though Mexicans are expected to vote Democratic they could easily form their own third party instead.

    If Mexico were to be seriously entertained as joining the USA it would have to be as multiple states, not just one. There is also the language barrier to think about. Besides, what does the USA gain by adding them as a state?
  • edited February 2008
    I am leery about the actual purpose and effectiveness of this Berlin, I mean, Mexican wall.
    Post edited by bodtchboy on
  • Besides, what does the USA gain by adding them as a state?
    One step closer to actually ruling the world?
  • Ok, first of all mayonnaise is delicious (salchipapa)
    Nooo, you don't but "mayonesa" on salchipapa!
    If it's that bad, why don't we, instead of building a fence, just annex the whole country? That'd go a long way towards solving the illegal immigration problem.
    My first thought was "that's crazy." Then I remember about El Salvador, where they stopped using their local currency and went with the dollar since 2004. The USA has the 1st or 2nd largest embassy in Latin America there. El Salvador even sent troops to Iraq on the promise that if, and when they come back they will be granted US citizenship. That sounds very close to assimilation to me.
    I am sorry but you are wrong "mayonesa" on salchipapa is delicious.
    Also El Salvador is very small, really small. I mean I have seen counties in the USA larger than El Salvador. Nevertheless, it is a beautifull country small as it is but I think it would be easier to assimiliate one county than a county of the size of Texas.
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