Oh mans, I just got to the part where everything I knew about the title changed. You were right, Scrym.
Has anyone read Otherland, by Tad Williams? I really liked it, even though it was about 3,000 pages total. What are other forumgoers' opinions on this, and other cyberpunk/sci fi fiction (that isn't the standard greatness, e.g. Asimov, Heinlein, Herbert)?
(I feel I should mention, by way of explanation, that I had finals this month. Petty things like graduating were getting in the way of reading The Prince of Nothing.)
Yeah, I'm quite disappointed with the slow speed I'm getting through just the first book at. I only really get to read it on my commute and during my break (which is very short), so I'm averaging only about 65 pages a day currently. Not to mention there were a few days where I didn't get to read at all for various reasons, the most recent of which being that I accidentally locked the book in my store the other night and didn't have a key to get it back out with.
Has anyone readOtherland, by Tad Williams? I really liked it, even though it was about 3,000 pages total. What are other forumgoers' opinions on this, and other cyberpunk/sci fi fiction (that isn't the standard greatness, e.g. Asimov, Heinlein, Herbert)?
I read the whole of Otherland years ago. It was a very enjoyable read. Sure it is a lot of reading, but I flew through it. The characters are really engaging and the locations are some of the most memorable in any science fiction I've read. The story is also quite strong throughout, which is quite a feat in such a long book.
I just remembered that the only quote on my Facebook page is "Confident, cocky, lazy, dead." - Johnny Wulgaru. It is a more suitable saying for a hit man, but something I try to apply in life myself. I stay at the "confident" stage and try not to creep into "Cocky".
I read the whole of Otherland years ago. It was a very enjoyable read. Sure it is a lot of reading, but I flew through it. The characters are really engaging and the locations are some of the most memorable in any science fiction I've read. The story is also quite strong throughout, which is quite a feat in such a long book.
Otherland is great. Also, personally I'm at "lazy", so I should be careful with "dead" :P
Round the corner from me here in Berlin is an English language second hand bookshop called Another Country. They have a cool system that lets you borrow books for just 1.5 euro each. In the cellar there are about 15,000 scifi and fantasy books which are normally organised very, very loosely but today I went and everything has been sorted out. So I now have a copy of The Darkness that Comes Before.... though it is such a chunky book I'm not sure why I didn't spot it before. Maybe someone had borrowed it.
I have two other books I want to read first, but this one seems to be split up into chunks so I guess I could dip in and out. I mainly read science fiction rather than fantasy and I have my own science fiction book review podcast but I used to read fantasy novels too. I just got sick of the same things being repeated over and over, and the first book in a series being good but just getting worse and worse as time goes on (I call this sequel fatigue)... but your enthusiasm for this series convinced me.
Yeah, I'm quite disappointed with the slow speed I'm getting through just the first book
I bet you're further than myself. I'm still not past the prologue. -_- Although I might try reading when I'm on the exercise bike, however I've never done that before, so I don't know if I'll be too distracted working out than trying to read.
I found a copy of TDTCB in a bookstore in the next town over yesterday...Went over there especially this afternoon with money on me so I could buy it...going to lie down in bed in a couple of hours and start reading...because I am unsure how long it will be before your review. (I was sure it would be last night just to annoy me )
I finished reading TDTCB last night. I went from reluctance to embrace yet another epic fantasy to mild interest to reading intently for hours until I finished. For some reason, I thought that the book was one of those stories where the sequels were tacked on, but no. So now I have to go to the book store today because I didn't buy all the books together. I bought American Gods at the same time, so I could just start that instead...
American Gods is really good, I read that just before I started on the Prince of Nothing books. I would recommend reading the Warrior Prophet though. I'm almost done with it, and going from the first book to the second I think helped a lot since it was still fresh in my mind.
I started American Gods but stopped reading it after about 70 pages or so. Nothing in it clicked with me and I always have other books to read.
I'm 260 pages into The Darkness That Comes Before and I'm enjoying it. So far I'm not finding it massively challenging or deep but the politics and plotting is good. It took me a a few chapters to get into the writing style, and some sentences still really annoy me, but I understand completely why Bakker is using that style.
Over the weekend, I was at a WoW TCG tournament in Seattle and Penny Aracade had a booth there. One of the booth attendees was reading a book to pass the time. I was up there watching Gabe playing a fan in a match. During that time I happened to overhear some random guy make a comment about the book the booth attendee was reading. I looked over and the booth attendee commented back on how it was a good fantasy type novel. I forget the book he was reading, but I do remember it being mentioned here on the forums. I then get in on the conversation and say, "I like fantasy novels too! In fact I'm reading one now called "The Darkness that Comes Before".
The guy who started the conversation looks at me and says, "I'm reading that one too."
We then give eachother an interesting look. I then ask, "How did you get into that book?"
He replied, "From a podcast I listen to."
I then raise one of my eyebrows and say, "Geek Nights?" He nods. I then exclaim, "ME TOO!" We give eachother high fives. It sparked into a decent conversation. The guy is actually from the east coast and went to RIT and was part of the anime club. I didn't catch his name, but it was pretty awesome meeting someone else who listens to the podcast. ^_^
Just wanted to say that I missed a few days of reading due to forgetting to take the book with me to work a few times, but I made up for missed time today and finished off the first book. Then I immediately bought the second and third books, since I finished the first while sitting around at a mall and the book store was right there. Started up on The Warrior-Prophet, and am currently only about thirty-five pages in. Feels like I never even stopped reading in the first place, which is great.
Just going back to Rym and Scott's comments in this episode about there being a character for everyone for a moment. I've found that my favourite point of view to read from is Kellhus's, mainly due to his unique world-view and logic. You could say that I'm being drawn to him the way he wants all those around him to be drawn, I guess. I find that I'm just fascinated with the way he perceives people and situations, how he calculates, and how he chooses to behave around others. Bakker really writes him very well.
In terms of which character I personally relate to/see many pieces of myself in, I think I would have to say Esmenet, especially in parts where she feels excited about participating in significant events and interacting with significant people. Save for the whole dead daughter thing and her choice of occupation, I felt her thought patterns, feelings and weaknesses were the most similar to my own out of all the characters presented. I don't know what that says about me to other people (WHAT DO YOU SEE?), but oh well. XD;
Save for the whole SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER thing and her choice of occupation, I felt her thought patterns, feelings and weaknesses were the most similar to my own out of all the characters presented.
I'm really enjoying this series; about halfway through the second book now. I've recommended it to a non-geeknights listener, and lent him my copy of the first book. It's interesting to see how the ripples of recommendation work: FRC > Geeknights > Me > Friend > ?
Ugh. I just finished The Warrior Prophet. Only one more of these cursed books to read. The main characters' heroics exceed their horrible flaws only ever so slightly.
It's a very interesting series of books. I'm about half through Thousandfold Thought, and characters I liked in the first book I'm finding I'm not liking as much, or liking for different reasons. And then the vice versa with characters I didn't really like that I'm liking more. I guess that really says something for how the characters evolve over the course of the series.
So I think people have had enough time to read the first book. When can we expect the Darkness that Comes Before . . . PODCAST? WHAT DO YOU SEE? the dreams won't stop until the podcast!! Wait.. This wasn't my idea to post this comment. Damn those Dunyain podcasters! I really am interested to hear the opinions of the books. New one coming out in Jan '09 according to Amazon.co.uk. Don't look it up if you haven't read the Third book: The Thousandfold Thought(heh 3 T's, third book)
It seems he's writing a new series taking place 20 years after Prince of Nothing, called Aspect-Emperor. From what I can find the first book is due out late this year, with book two to follow late next year.
I finished the first book in the series this morning. It was a really good read, solid stuff indeed. As a test of the writing, I decided to go through the whole thing without looking at the map or the character glossary. I had no problem following the characters, no matter how similar the names were. Also, while the map of the world in my head was completely wrong compared to the one in the book, I was never confused while reading, so the world must have been portrayed well enough.
Now some personal, completely subjective thoughts...
People are saying they liked some characters or identified strongly with some characters more than others. I disliked pretty much every single character in this book. I was interested to see what was happening with them, I thought they were well rounded and believable, and wanted to follow their story. But like? Not at all. Also I found I had very little in common with anyone in the book.
Normally in novels, if I don't like any of the main characters (and it happens often) there needs to be something else strong to fall back on. As I read a lot of science fiction, I can often get enjoyment from the different worlds created by the author, the technologies and the other ideas. This book didn't have a world I could enjoy either. Maybe it is because I don't read a lot of fantasy.
However I did really enjoy the plotting and politics and factions and backstabbing and confusion. And the philosophic ideas were interesting.
My conclusion: a well written book that I can appreciate at many levels, but I don't think I'm going to rush out and buy the second right away. The political conclusion and the characters' stories are tied up well enough for me to be happy with the book as a stand alone piece for now.
I love the novels and have more than a mouthful to say about them, but I will point out the largest sticking point for me in the series (though this applies more to teh genre than to this particular work): The roles of female characters. I get that the story is set in a land where women are whores or wives, but why? Why do so many fantasy novelists set up their worlds in such a way? This is a genre in which all rules go out the window, right? So why set up such a painfully traditional patriarchy. Sorry, this will be the last I mention it because there are more insightful and specific discussions to be had with this work - this subject is just a pet peeve of mine.
I think that, at least in this particular case, the world was based heavily on a very specific time period in the real world. Humans, especially pre-modern humans, were rarely what we would consider progressive in regard to gender equality. The fact that we have no example of a gender-neutral society like this is probably the (very sad) reason.
There are exceptions. The Temeraire series very pointedly shakes this social order up. Sadly, the change sticks out like a sore thumb and seems extremely forced as a result. We would have to write fantasy stories much more removed from our own human experience to explore that sort of world without it seeming highly unlikely.
I can see a few possible explanations as to the roles of the female characters. As Rym said, it's part "historical" accuracy; the fantasy genre usually has Medieval-esque societies, and women in Medieval societies had few roles beyond that of a wife or a whore. So, in part, it's to make the story more believable.
The second part is a bit more depressing; it's that a female character is usually MORE believable in a more servile role, at least for most people in modern society. As far as we've come, it's a depressing testament to how much farther we have to go; a lot of people today still have a hard time getting behind a strong female character.
The real explanation that I see includes those two points in them. The entire series of novels essentially serves as a mirror; R. Scott Bakker is presenting us this world and saying, in pretty much no uncertain terms, "THIS IS YOU." His portrayal of female characters in servile roles, the way I see it, is intended to be a commentary of our own practices today; it's the assertion that as far as we've come, we've still got a long way to go. At least, that's what makes the most sense to me.
I think that, at least in this particular case, the world was based heavily on a very specific time period in the real world. Humans, especially pre-modern humans, were rarely what we would considerprogressivein regard to gender equality. The fact that we have no example of a gender-neutral society like this is probably the (very sad) reason.
There are exceptions. The Temeraire series very pointedly shakes this social order up. Sadly, the change sticks out like a sore thumb and seems extremely forced as a result. We would have to write fantasy stories much more removed from our own human experience to explore that sort of world without it seeming highly unlikely.
There have been many matriarchal societies in human history, especially in aboriginal cultures. I get the point about this book - it is more of a sore point with the genre in in general than it is a criticism of this specific book. I think the bigger problem is that is a genre dominated by male writers and seen to appeal to men more than women. I could be said that in creating strong, intelligent, and capable female characters - they may appeal to more women and not alienate the men as much as they think.
The second part is a bit more depressing; it's that a female character is usually MORE believable in a more servile role, at least for most people in modern society. As far as we've come, it's a depressing testament to how much farther we have to go; a lot of people today still have a hard time getting behind a strong female character.
Therealexplanation that I see includes those two points in them. The entire series of novels essentially serves as a mirror; R. Scott Bakker is presenting us this world and saying, in pretty much no uncertain terms, "THIS ISYOU." His portrayal of female characters in servile roles, the way I see it, is intended to be a commentary of our own practices today; it's the assertion that as far as we've come, we've still got a long way to go. At least, that's what makes the most sense to me.
I completely disagree that the book is in any way a reflection of modern society. Perhaps in certain individual characters, or in overarching themes, certain modern issues are addressed, but this really is more of a fantastic creation that explores basic ideas of humanity more than specific social issues. Moreover, I think most modern societies provide a decently equal status of women. Is there room for improvement? Yes, of course there is. However, class is more the determining factor in people's lives these days - far, far more than gender and race.
The second part is a bit more depressing; it's that a female character is usually MORE believable in a more servile role, at least for most people in modern society. As far as we've come, it's a depressing testament to how much farther we have to go; a lot of people today still have a hard time getting behind a strong female character.
Therealexplanation that I see includes those two points in them. The entire series of novels essentially serves as a mirror; R. Scott Bakker is presenting us this world and saying, in pretty much no uncertain terms, "THIS ISYOU." His portrayal of female characters in servile roles, the way I see it, is intended to be a commentary of our own practices today; it's the assertion that as far as we've come, we've still got a long way to go. At least, that's what makes the most sense to me.
I completely disagree that the book is in any way a reflection of modern society. Perhaps in certain individual characters, or in overarching themes, certain modern issues are addressed, but this really is more of a fantastic creation that explores basic ideas of humanity more than specific social issues. Moreover, I think most modern societies provide a decently equal status of women. Is there room for improvement? Yes, of course there is. However, class is more the determining factor in people's lives these days - far, far more than gender and race.
Perhaps I could be more clear. By exploring the basic ideas of humanity, the books are demonstrating certain threads that seem to persist throughout humanity's history, regardless of culture. It's a reductionist mirror, in other words.
Of course we've come very far from the days of the servile female, but I think the point is that the issues still, and will continue, to persist at some level. We have to continually address them, and perhaps one day we'll overcome them.
I'm not too convinced that class is FAR more of a factor than gender or race - I think you give people too much credit in that regard - but it's certainly a bigger factor. I wouldn't downplay the gender or race issues just yet, though.
I've just finished The Warrior Prophet, after about 8 hours of constant reading. I have to say, this is the first time I've ever read a novel for that long without becoming drowsy or "spacing out" when I'm done (as I am wont to do with other novels). I'm not sure if it is a good or bad thing that I am able to pass between the book-world and reality so easily.
It is 2:30 am now. I have a job interview tomorrow morning. Otherwise, I would continue straight to the end.
I finished TDTCB on friday and just got TWP from the library. I'll probably finish book 2 in a few nights like I did book 1. Then I'm gonna have to actually buy book 3! Oh teh noes!
I finished book 3 last night. Bakker is an excellent storyteller. He suffers from the David Foster Wallace syndrome of not being able to end a book properly but this is a quibble. There are some plot holes too but perhaps these will be explained in future books. I'm glad I spent endless hours this summer with this series.
I finished book 3 last night. Bakker is an excellent storyteller. He suffers from the David Foster Wallace syndrome of not being able to end a book properly but this is a quibble. There are some plot holes too but perhaps these will be explained in future books. I'm glad I spent endless hours this summer with this series.
I'm not so sure he doesn't know how to end the books properly. I think the problem is that he makes you want the book to end one way, but deliberately makes it end a different way. He makes you want Mog-Pharau so badly, but he never gives it to you.
Comments
Has anyone read Otherland, by Tad Williams? I really liked it, even though it was about 3,000 pages total. What are other forumgoers' opinions on this, and other cyberpunk/sci fi fiction (that isn't the standard greatness, e.g. Asimov, Heinlein, Herbert)?
(I feel I should mention, by way of explanation, that I had finals this month. Petty things like graduating were getting in the way of reading The Prince of Nothing.)
I just remembered that the only quote on my Facebook page is "Confident, cocky, lazy, dead." - Johnny Wulgaru. It is a more suitable saying for a hit man, but something I try to apply in life myself. I stay at the "confident" stage and try not to creep into "Cocky".
Also, personally I'm at "lazy", so I should be careful with "dead" :P
I have two other books I want to read first, but this one seems to be split up into chunks so I guess I could dip in and out. I mainly read science fiction rather than fantasy and I have my own science fiction book review podcast but I used to read fantasy novels too. I just got sick of the same things being repeated over and over, and the first book in a series being good but just getting worse and worse as time goes on (I call this sequel fatigue)... but your enthusiasm for this series convinced me.
I'm 260 pages into The Darkness That Comes Before and I'm enjoying it. So far I'm not finding it massively challenging or deep but the politics and plotting is good. It took me a a few chapters to get into the writing style, and some sentences still really annoy me, but I understand completely why Bakker is using that style.
The guy who started the conversation looks at me and says, "I'm reading that one too."
We then give eachother an interesting look. I then ask, "How did you get into that book?"
He replied, "From a podcast I listen to."
I then raise one of my eyebrows and say, "Geek Nights?" He nods. I then exclaim, "ME TOO!" We give eachother high fives. It sparked into a decent conversation. The guy is actually from the east coast and went to RIT and was part of the anime club. I didn't catch his name, but it was pretty awesome meeting someone else who listens to the podcast. ^_^
Just going back to Rym and Scott's comments in this episode about there being a character for everyone for a moment. I've found that my favourite point of view to read from is Kellhus's, mainly due to his unique world-view and logic. You could say that I'm being drawn to him the way he wants all those around him to be drawn, I guess. I find that I'm just fascinated with the way he perceives people and situations, how he calculates, and how he chooses to behave around others. Bakker really writes him very well.
In terms of which character I personally relate to/see many pieces of myself in, I think I would have to say Esmenet, especially in parts where she feels excited about participating in significant events and interacting with significant people. Save for the whole dead daughter thing and her choice of occupation, I felt her thought patterns, feelings and weaknesses were the most similar to my own out of all the characters presented. I don't know what that says about me to other people (WHAT DO YOU SEE?), but oh well. XD;
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
the dreams won't stop until the podcast!!
Wait.. This wasn't my idea to post this comment. Damn those Dunyain podcasters!
I really am interested to hear the opinions of the books.
New one coming out in Jan '09 according to Amazon.co.uk. Don't look it up if you haven't read the Third book: The Thousandfold Thought(heh 3 T's, third book)
Now some personal, completely subjective thoughts...
People are saying they liked some characters or identified strongly with some characters more than others. I disliked pretty much every single character in this book. I was interested to see what was happening with them, I thought they were well rounded and believable, and wanted to follow their story. But like? Not at all. Also I found I had very little in common with anyone in the book.
Normally in novels, if I don't like any of the main characters (and it happens often) there needs to be something else strong to fall back on. As I read a lot of science fiction, I can often get enjoyment from the different worlds created by the author, the technologies and the other ideas. This book didn't have a world I could enjoy either. Maybe it is because I don't read a lot of fantasy.
However I did really enjoy the plotting and politics and factions and backstabbing and confusion. And the philosophic ideas were interesting.
My conclusion: a well written book that I can appreciate at many levels, but I don't think I'm going to rush out and buy the second right away. The political conclusion and the characters' stories are tied up well enough for me to be happy with the book as a stand alone piece for now.
There are exceptions. The Temeraire series very pointedly shakes this social order up. Sadly, the change sticks out like a sore thumb and seems extremely forced as a result. We would have to write fantasy stories much more removed from our own human experience to explore that sort of world without it seeming highly unlikely.
The second part is a bit more depressing; it's that a female character is usually MORE believable in a more servile role, at least for most people in modern society. As far as we've come, it's a depressing testament to how much farther we have to go; a lot of people today still have a hard time getting behind a strong female character.
The real explanation that I see includes those two points in them. The entire series of novels essentially serves as a mirror; R. Scott Bakker is presenting us this world and saying, in pretty much no uncertain terms, "THIS IS YOU." His portrayal of female characters in servile roles, the way I see it, is intended to be a commentary of our own practices today; it's the assertion that as far as we've come, we've still got a long way to go. At least, that's what makes the most sense to me.
Of course we've come very far from the days of the servile female, but I think the point is that the issues still, and will continue, to persist at some level. We have to continually address them, and perhaps one day we'll overcome them.
I'm not too convinced that class is FAR more of a factor than gender or race - I think you give people too much credit in that regard - but it's certainly a bigger factor. I wouldn't downplay the gender or race issues just yet, though.
It is 2:30 am now. I have a job interview tomorrow morning. Otherwise, I would continue straight to the end.