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HMTKSteve: Neo-Con, Libertarian, Neo-Nazi or just plain ignorant? You decide

edited May 2008 in Flamewars
    For purposes of this discussion (I would create a poll but I don't know how):
  • Neo-Con is a political philosophy that emerged in the United States from the rejection of social liberalism and the New Left counterculture of the 1960s.
  • Libertarian is a broad spectrum of political philosophies, each sharing the common overall priority of maximum limitation of government combined with optimum possible individual liberty.
  • Neo-Nazi The term refers to post-World War II ideologies, political movements, and social movements seeking to revive Nazism, or some variant that echos its aspects such as racial or ethnic nationalism or Völkish integralism
  • Ignorant is the condition of being uninformed or uneducated, lacking knowledge or information.
I found an interesting line in the Neo-Con article:

Administration of George W. Bush

The Bush campaign and the early Bush Administration did not exhibit strong support for neoconservative principles. As a candidate Bush argued for a restrained foreign policy, stating his opposition to the idea of nation-building[19] and an early foreign policy confrontation with China was handled without the vociferousness suggested by some neoconservatives.[20]. Also early in the Administration, some neoconservatives criticized Bush's Administration as insufficiently supportive of Israel, and suggested Bush's foreign policies were not substantially different from those of President Clinton.[21]

Bush's policies changed dramatically immediately after the September 11, 2001 attacks. According to columnist Gerard Baker,[22]

It took, improbably, the arrival of George Bush in the White House and September 11, 2001, to catapult [neoconservatism] into the public consciousness. When Mr Bush cited its most simplified tenet — that the US should seek to promote liberal democracy around the world — as a key case for invading Iraq, neoconservatism was suddenly everywhere. It was, to its many critics, a unified ideology that justified military adventurism, sanctioned torture and promoted aggressive Zionism.

Bush laid out his vision of the future in his State of the Union speech in January 2002, following the September 11, 2001 attacks. The speech, written by neoconservative David Frum, named Iraq, Iran and North Korea as states that "constitute an axis of evil" and "pose a grave and growing danger." Bush suggested the possibility of preemptive war: "I will not wait on events, while dangers gather. I will not stand by, as peril draws closer and closer. The United States of America will not permit the world's most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the world's most destructive weapons."[23][24]


I agreed with going into Iraq not for nation building purposes but because I felt enough lines had been drawn in the sand and that further lines being drawn was just a waste of time and money. It was either put-up or shut-up time. I have been very disappointed with the political side of the Iraq battle since right after the Iraqi army was disbanded. The armed forces have done their job admirably but a lack of decisive leadership at the top has prolonged this for far too long. I would love a clear exit strategy that does not involve the US losing face or the region falling into more turmoil than it was in before we got there.

My views on same-sex marriage have evolved over time and my current thoughts can be read in the California Supreme Court Overturns Gay Marriage Ban thread. My general view is that it is going to have to be marriage because anything less will be a monumental legal hassle and it does not hurt anyone (except bigots and homophobes). My more specific view is that marriage should be removed from the hands of the state and the state should simply license out "personal partnerships" that work 100% the same as a regular marriage license and leave the word marriage to the religious people.

On social Issues I feel that anything that helps without creating dependency is good. I'm of the "teach a man to fish" school of thought.

On economic issues I feel that the laws of supply and demand tend to work very well in most situations. Tampering with the markets only leads to more tampering to offset the ripples you were not expecting to appear when you last stuck your hand in. If something is essential but not profitable then it likely should receive a subsidy. Subsidies should not be given out to force things that do not work onto the public or the market (ethanol). They should also not be provided for companies that are profitable (big agro and big oil fall in here).

Taxes should be the same no matter how much money you make. I do not believe in a "progressive" tax system. Excessive or unfair taxation policies lead to companies moving offshore to hide their profits. I also do not believe in punitive taxes. I do not like the way the tax code is used for social engineering by punishing or rewarding certain behavior.

I do not believe a universal health care system will work. This is mostly because I believe you get what you pay for and you value things more when you earn them. If your health care is free you will not think twice about going in and getting looked at for something that you would normally not even consider paying a $20 co-pay for.

I believe that society should be color-blind. however, I also recognize that some racial groups are not on equal footing with others due to past injustices and problems that are endemic to those racial groups. I feel education and fixing family bonds can fix most of those problems. however, since the hey day of the Civil rights movement there have been fractures in the various minority groups. Where once the goal was integration the rise of multiculturalism has changed that to "preservation of racial identity". You can preserve your ethnic heritage at home while integrating with society as a whole.

Calling oneself a hyphen-American is divisive. As is saying, "it's a [insert racial group here] thing, you wouldn't understand." The Civil rights Movement needs to come together and decide what the goal is. I would prefer we get back to being the melting pot.

I'm trying to be as open and honest as my ignorant background allows me to be. I did not attend college but I am well-read.

I also believe in a limited government and states rights. Some things are obviously necessary for a modern free society to function while others are not. don't ask me for specifics on this one because I am far too ignorant of the vastness of government to give an educated answer on which items should be cut and which should be saved.
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Comments

  • edited May 2008
    Us mere mortals can no longer make polls, unfortunately. I'm not entirely sure why the privilege was taken away.
    Post edited by Sail on
  • Us mere mortals can no longer make polls, unfortunately. I'm not entirely sure why the privilege was taken away.
    Oh well, after being accused of being a Neo-Nazi I decided to write down some of my beliefs and link to the things I've been accused of and let the forum members decide where I fall.
  • HMTKSteve. None of the above, just an expert troll.
  • HMTKSteve. None of the above, just an expert troll.
    That's harsh!
  • jccjcc
    edited May 2008
    HMTKSteve. None of the above, just an expert troll.
    That's harsh!
    Depends on how he means it. :) Considering that most of the flamewars you get into seem to be ones where you're outnumbered by the opposition, I think that you hold up fairly well. Keep working at it, hone your technique, expand the depth and breadth of your knowledge to effectively attack and defend from all sides, and try to avoid being dogmatic. You'll make epic status yet, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. :)
    Post edited by jcc on
  • HMTKSteve. None of the above, just an expert troll.
    That's harsh!




    Why do you post like this?
  • edited May 2008
    Why do you post like this?
    Because he is an attention whore.
    Post edited by Your Mom on
  • jccjcc
    edited May 2008
    HMTKSteve. None of the above, just an expert troll.
    That's harsh!



    Why do you post like this?
    I'd guess he's used to forums that don't add automatic spacing after their blockquotes, so he adds it himself. I often find myself doing the same thing.
    Post edited by jcc on
  • lolfail
  • Couldn't you just code block quotes to delete the extra line breaks when submitted?
  • Couldn't you just code block quotes to delete the extra line breaks when submitted?
    Ah, if only it worked that way. When you put a post into Vanilla it stores what you typed into the database and applies some filtration. Then when you read the post from the database it applies another set of filtration. The HTML clean up applies on the outbound. In other words, fixing it would not just affect all new posts, but also all the old posts. If I removed the newline after blockquote, then all the posts that are done properly would have no newlines whatsoever after the blockquote, and you would have the next sentence starting on the right side of the blue box!
    There is a potential solution of writing a script to traverse the database and modify every comment, but with so many comments, there are sure to be some that get destroyed. It is very hard to perfect that sort of thing.
  • Is it just me that thinks your believes on social health care somewhat undermines your ideal on social equality of race?
    At the moment, no matter what country you are in, the social less fortunate are often members of minorities. Most of them are born into poverty and due to this are worse educated and only can apply for and/or get offered more unhealthy or potentially dangerous jobs e.g. construction work. In addition, crime and accident rates are also by far higher for those social groups, as well as sexual related factors, may it be STDs or pregnancy and the risks thereof. Those people in most cases can't afford health care and would actually benefit the most from a social health care system and it would also help them to gain equal footing to other more fortunate social groups.
  • Is it just me that thinks your believes on social health care somewhat undermines your ideal on social equality of race?
    At the moment, no matter what country you are in, the social less fortunate are often members of minorities. Most of them are born into poverty and due to this are worse educated and only can apply for and/or get offered more unhealthy or potentially dangerous jobs e.g. construction work. In addition, crime and accident rates are also by far higher for those social groups, as well as sexual related factors, may it be STDs or pregnancy and the risks thereof. Those people in most cases can't afford health care and would actually benefit the most from a social health care system and it would also help them to gain equal footing to other more fortunate social groups.
    I could be cold and suggest that if you are poor you should not be having kids but that does nothing to solve the problem.

    I would fully support a program that trains unskilled workers as long as the persons are interested in working.

    The funny thing about the "labor camp" idea is that it is a parallel of the military. When you join the military you exchange several years of your life for training. Once you begin that training you live in a very structured and locked-down environment until after your training is complete. This might have changed some since I went through basic and AIT in the early 90's but when I was in training trainees had to live in the barracks and could not even have a car on base. Your freedom was severely restricted and unless you had permission you could not go off base.

    Would it be possible to create a work force analogous to the military where people sign up to work on the infrastructure of the US? In exchange for getting the specialized training you sign away five years of your life to work in this government group. I know some states will pay for your college in exchange for an agreement to work in state. I believe Alaska has had programs in the past like this which they used to get skilled jobs filled such as doctors and teachers.

    I would fully support such an undertaking here in the US. Once someone mustered out of this force they could get a job with their local public works system in their town or state.

    See, I have no problem with the government paying for your education (college) if you in turn agree to a work contract after your education is complete. Want to become a doctor? Well, the government will pay for your med school but you have to be willing to work wherever the government chooses to send you after graduation. Once you complete your "tour of duty" you are free to remain on or seek employment in the private sector.

    I also support education for non-violent criminals in the prison population.

    You in jail on drug charges? Why are you there? Did you get involved with the drug scene because of a lack of education? Wouldn't getting an education while in prison be a better way of making you a functional member of society upon release?
  • If I removed the newline after blockquote, then all the posts that are done properly would have no newlines whatsoever after the blockquote, and you would have the next sentence starting on the right side of the blue box!
    Why not have it strip out all line breaks after the blockquote tag and then add in one?
  • If I removed the newline after blockquote, then all the posts that are done properly would have no newlines whatsoever after the blockquote, and you would have the next sentence starting on the right side of the blue box!
    Why not have it strip out all line breaks after the blockquote tag and then add in one?
    I'll look into it.
  • edited May 2008
    Why do you post like this?
    Because he is an attention whore.
    Agree.
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • I myself is pretty conservative; that said, I agree with most things that HMTKSteve said. I'm not as extreme as a Libertarian, but for my age(17), I am far right. Socialized health care is a broken system in my opinion; I may be able to see my favorite doctor, but I also may get a random doctor at each visit. I like having a personal doctor and so such a system would make me want to go to the doctor even less than I want to now(I didn't know that was possible).
  • Socialized health care is a broken system in my opinion; I may be able to see my favorite doctor, but I also may get a random doctor at each visit. I like having a personal doctor and so such a system would make me want to go to the doctor even less than I want to now(I didn't know that was possible).
    That is absolutely not true. In socialized medical systems, there are still private practices where you choose your doctor by choosing the practice and hospitals with doctors you get assigned to. As far as I can tell, it doesn't work any different in the U.S.

    In what regard do you think is socialized health care a broken system? After all it works everywhere else.
  • Socialized health care is a broken system in my opinion; I may be able to see my favorite doctor, but I also may get a random doctor at each visit. I like having a personal doctor and so such a system would make me want to go to the doctor even less than I want to now(I didn't know that was possible).
    If you don't like the doctor you get, you can always get a second opinion. At any rate, this is such a small price to pay to have health care accessible to everyone. It's likely that if you needed serious care you would be referred to a "random" specialist anyway.
  • That is absolutely not true. In socialized medical systems, there are still private practices where you choose your doctor by choosing the practice and hospitals with doctors you get assigned to. As far as I can tell, it doesn't work any different in the U.S.

    In what regard do you think is socialized health care a broken system? After all it works everywhere else.
    How do you explain the sometimes lengthy waiting periods for certain procedures?
  • edited May 2008
    That is absolutely not true. In socialized medical systems, there are still private practices where you choose your doctor by choosing the practice and hospitals with doctors you get assigned to. As far as I can tell, it doesn't work any different in the U.S.

    In what regard do you think is socialized health care a broken system? After all it works everywhere else.
    How do you explain the sometimes lengthy waiting periods for certain procedures?
    The systems, as they are set up, take urgent matters first, and you have to wait longer for less urgent matters (just like in the U.S. - you sometime have to schedule a check-up more than 6-8 months in advance, but if you are presenting dangerous symptoms, they can get you in in a day or two). Also, if you don't want to wait, you can always go to the ER, and forgo your Primary Care Physician (just like in the US). More importantly, it is better to wait and get in to see a doctor, than not to be able to see a doctor at all because you don't have health insurance or to rely on "free clinics" that have no real diagnostic equipment.
    Post edited by Kate Monster on
  • edited May 2008
    Ignore this second post. My work internet is slow and it posted twice.
    Post edited by Kate Monster on
  • That is absolutely not true. In socialized medical systems, there are still private practices where you choose your doctor by choosing the practice and hospitals with doctors you get assigned to. As far as I can tell, it doesn't work any different in the U.S.
    In what regard do you think is socialized health care a broken system? After all it works everywhere else.
    How do you explain the sometimes lengthy waiting periods for certain procedures?
    Limited access to expensive equipment.
  • More importantly, it is better to wait and get in to see a doctor, than not to be able to see a doctor at all because you don't have health insurance or to rely on "free clinics" that have no really diagnostic equipment.
    Is it really? Have you ever heard of the Tragedy of the Commons problem? I don't mean to sound like a pessimist, but just giving health care away is just going to doom the common good. I'm not saying what we have no is ideal, but pure socialized health care is not the solution. In Canada, a dog can get a hip replacement quicker than a human. The dog can wait less than a week, while humans can expect to wait up to three years!
  • More importantly, it is better to wait and get in to see a doctor, than not to be able to see a doctor at all because you don't have health insurance or to rely on "free clinics" that have no really diagnostic equipment.
    Is it really? Have you ever heard of theTragedy of the Commonsproblem? I don't mean to sound like a pessimist, but just giving health care away is just going to doom the common good. I'm not saying what we have no is ideal, but pure socialized health care is not the solution. In Canada, a dog can get a hip replacementquicker than a human. The dog can wait less than a week, while humans can expect to wait up to three years!
    Wouldn't you say that getting teh hip replacement at all is better than not? That is the major issue we face right now.
  • Wouldn't you say that getting teh hip replacement at all is better than not? That is the major issue we face right now.
    Not if I can pay someone to do it quicker. You are also forgetting other time sensitive procedures such as surgery and using MRI machines for Cancer detection.
  • Because they don't need to be dealt with immediately? It's not like the doctors make you wait for nothing and the operating room goes unused in the meantime. Publicly funded health-care systems slot such procedures with restricted resources by urgency, not by first come first serve or by who can pay more.

    I also believe that the numbers the U.S. people get reported are highly exaggerated. I had three operations in my life so far (22 years old). Unfortunately my tonsil operation is too far back to remember the exact waiting time, but I doubt it was longer than three days after the diagnosis that they were removed.

    When I broke my right knee when I was thirteen, I went that evening to the hospital, got my operation the next day and was out of the hospital the day after that.
    I broke my left knee in the same manner when I was eighteen (some defect I was born with apparently). It happened during physical education. I was transported from the school to the hospital where a doctor looked at it within 30 minutes. I was given a bed, the day after that I had the operation and two days later I went home.

    The only procedures that I know about that are treated with longer waiting periods are completely non-urgent ones that solely are done to increase ones quality in life, e.g. correction of bowlegs.
  • edited May 2008
    Wouldn't you say that getting teh hip replacement at all is better than not? That is the major issue we face right now.
    Not if I can pay someone to do it quicker. You are also forgetting other time sensitive procedures such as surgery and using MRI machines for Cancer detection.
    Even with socialized medicine, there are still independent doctors. The bottom line is that if you have money, you will always be guaranteed excellent health care because you can pay for it. There needs to be a safety net for the poor (and even the middle-class these days) to have SOME KIND of coverage, even if it isn't ideal. Something is better than nothing, and nothing is what a lot of people in the U.S. have, including my husband. If he is injured or gets ill, we will be bankrupt. No one should ever have to choose between their physical health and their financial future.
    Post edited by Kate Monster on
  • For those who live in a socialized medicine country, do you also have access to private health insurance? If so is it a real pain to get, expensive, easy to get, etc... ???
  • For those who live in a socialized medicine country, do you also have access to private health insurance? If so is it a real pain to get, expensive, easy to get, etc... ???
    It can't be much more expensive than healthcare in USA (I'm hoping).
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