Yeah, it definitely looks like ice. I hope it's ice. But I won't believe it until our little robot friend melts it and "tastes" it. Actually, if they just put some on a hot plate with a thermometer, and it boiled at 100 degrees celcius, that would probably be enough to demonstrate that it is frozen H2O.
That's essentially how TEGA works. It progressively steps through multiple degrees of heat reaching to the maximum of 1000 degrees Celsius.
The Thermal and Evolved Gas Analyzer (TEGA) is a combination of a high-temperature furnace with a mass spectrometer. It will be used to bake samples of Martian dust, and determine the content of this dust. It has eight ovens, each about the size of a large ball-point pen, which will be able to analyze one sample each, for a total of eight separate samples. Team members can measure how much water vapor and carbon dioxide gas are given off, how much water-ice the samples contain, and what minerals are present that may have formed during a wetter, warmer past climate. The instrument will also be capable of measuring any organic volatiles, down to 10 ppb.
Easy, guys. The white stuff could just be kieserite. I sincerely hope it's ice, but I thought we appreciated skeptical inquiry here. Let's not go telling everyone that they have found ice until and unless the scientists agree.
Here is a close up they took. Sounds like the scientists are saying that ice is the most likely candidate. However, they are not sure if it could be CO2 or water based ice. The smooth surface and shape fit the ice hypothesis. But like you said, they won't know for sure until tests are performed.
Easy, guys. The white stuff could just be kieserite. I sincerely hope it's ice, but I thought we appreciated skeptical inquiry here. Let's not go telling everyone that they have found ice until and unless the scientists agree.
Yeah, it definitely looks like ice. I hope it's ice. But I won't believe it until our little robot friend melts it and "tastes" it. Actually, if they just put some on a hot plate with a thermometer, and it boiled at 100 degrees celcius, that would probably be enough to demonstrate that it is frozen H2O.
Proof I am smart. I independently came up with the same solution that NASA scientists came up with.
What?
What is the boiling point for water? Depends on atmospheric pressure. On Earth at sea level the boiling point is 100 degrees C. So you think the Phoenix lander will pressurize the sample to Earth sea level first? When has the atmosphere of Mars ever been so high pressure? Never. The TEGA will heat the ice, but the temperature that it boils will not be anywhere close to 100 degrees celsius. A quick search finds that:
"According to the model, the highest surface pressure, 12.4 millibars, occurs at the bottom of the Hellas Basin (a low-lying area created by an ancient asteroid strike). The problem is that the boiling temperature there is only +10 °C. It can't get very hot or the water will boil away."
A quick check on wikipedia shows the triple point of water is 273.16 kelvin at 6.1 millibars. In this news story http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/phoenix/080527mroradio.html the pressure at the Phoenix lander is 8 millibars. A quick calculation puts the boiling point at 3.769 degrees Celcius.
Without even trying to think about it at all, I arrived at the right idea. With more time, I surely would have taken into account the extra factors like atmospheric pressure.
You arrived at a similar but wrong idea. You wanted to heat the ice to see when it boiled. It would boil at about 3 or 4 degrees.
Now read what was quoted:
The Thermal and Evolved Gas Analyzer (TEGA) is a combination of a high-temperature furnace with a mass spectrometer. It will be used to bake samples of Martian dust, and determine the content of this dust. It has eight ovens, each about the size of a large ball-point pen, which will be able to analyze one sample each, for a total of eight separate samples. Team members can measure how much water vapor and carbon dioxide gas are given off, how much water-ice the samples contain, and what minerals are present that may have formed during a wetter, warmer past climate. The instrument will also be capable of measuring any organic volatiles, down to 10 ppb.
The TEGA uses a mass spectrometer to see what elements there may be. Nothing is said about checking the boiling point of anything. The ovens heat the samples up to 1000 degrees celcius... say we start at 0 degrees, water will boil 0.003 percent through the experiment. They will measure how much water vapor is released, but they are heating the sample to release it then detecting how much with the mass spectrometer, not heating it and working out what melted by the temperature reached.
Yours was a good idea, but really NOT the same idea as the Nasa scientists. You are smart, but this idea of yours is NOT evidence of your smartness.
What is the boiling point for water? Depends on atmospheric pressure. On Earth at sea level the boiling point is 100 degrees C. So you think the Phoenix lander will pressurize the sample to Earth sea level first? When has the atmosphere of Mars ever been so high pressure? Never. The TEGA will heat the ice, but the temperature that it boils will not be anywhere close to 100 degrees celsius. A quick search finds that:
"According to the model, the highest surface pressure, 12.4 millibars, occurs at the bottom of the Hellas Basin (a low-lying area created by an ancient asteroid strike). The problem is that the boiling temperature there is only +10 °C. It can't get very hot or the water will boil away."
A quick check on wikipedia shows the triple point of water is 273.16 kelvin at 6.1 millibars. In this news storyhttp://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/phoenix/080527mroradio.htmlthe pressure at the Phoenix lander is 8 millibars. A quick calculation puts the boiling point at 3.769 degrees Celcius.
Sorry Scott, not proof you are smart at all.
Whahahahaha! Awesome kick. And Scott, no, you 'coming up' with that idea doesn't show you're smart, it's just a standard scientific procedure used to determine what the hell you're dealing with. Most likely you have learned it in Science classes. Also, your method would require more work. What if the sample you took was highly saturated with say, salt? The boiling point of that sample will lie above what you expect if it were water, thus you'd have to melt it, boil it, distill the water vapor, then boil and measure the temperature of the distilled water before you would be able to determine that it truly was, or was not, water. The method NASA is using it much more bullet proof and 'easier' afaik.
The TEGA uses a mass spectrometer to see what elements there may be. Nothing is said about checking the boiling point of anything. The ovens heat the samples up to 1000 degrees celcius... say we start at 0 degrees, water will boil 0.003 percent through the experiment. They will measure how much water vapor is released, but they are heating the sample to release it then detecting how much with the mass spectrometer, not heating it and working out what melted by the temperature reached.
Yours was a good idea, but really NOT the same idea as the Nasa scientists. You are smart, but this idea of yours is NOT evidence of your smartness.
Wow, why are you making such a big deal about this? I'm pretty sure that his original statement was made with a certain level of humor...
I'm not making a big deal so much as having fun researching a topic. That I can one-up Scott is a bonus.
Actually, I don't think this is so much of a one-up because Scott considers everything that occurs in nature or in virtual reality to be proof that he is smart.
It's official, the white patches that have been found around the area are ice. Scientists know this because they have been keeping record of one of the dig sites and have noticed that the white material has sublimated after exposure, "It must be ice" according to Phoenix Principal Investigator Peter Smith. Story.
They don't know if it's water, though, correct? I thought I read somewhere that there is a chance that it's CO2.
I don't believe the surface during summer is cold enough to support the formation of C02 ice. Can't verify that though. The Phoenix Twitter said it was specifically water ice.
They're reasonably sure that it's H2O ice, considering the environment. There aren't many options as to what it is, and they're narrowing them quickly. ^_^
Just curious, but what was the reasoning behind not putting anything in so it could take samples home? To reduce the cost? Is the lander going to dig down into the ice to see if it can find anything preserved in it (if it could; I'm not exactly up on these things)?
Returning even the smallest of samples from Mars would take a much larger vehicle, and would have likely increased the cost of the mission by an order of magnitude. It's much cheaper and less risky to just analyse the samples on site and radio the results back to Earth.
Just curious, but what was the reasoning behind not putting anything in so it could take samples home? To reduce the cost? Is the lander going to dig down into the ice to see if it can find anything preserved in it (if it could; I'm not exactly up on these things)?
It would be impossible to get it to come back home. To escape the gravitational pull of a full planet requires quite a massive rocket and there is no way to launch a rocket successfully from Mars right now.
The lander is going to dig into the ice and melt samples in it's TEGA ovens to see the molecular components of the soil/ice.
Comments
What is the boiling point for water? Depends on atmospheric pressure. On Earth at sea level the boiling point is 100 degrees C. So you think the Phoenix lander will pressurize the sample to Earth sea level first? When has the atmosphere of Mars ever been so high pressure? Never. The TEGA will heat the ice, but the temperature that it boils will not be anywhere close to 100 degrees celsius. A quick search finds that: A quick check on wikipedia shows the triple point of water is 273.16 kelvin at 6.1 millibars. In this news story http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/phoenix/080527mroradio.html the pressure at the Phoenix lander is 8 millibars. A quick calculation puts the boiling point at 3.769 degrees Celcius.
Sorry Scott, not proof you are smart at all.
Yeah, this is cool.
Now read what was quoted: The TEGA uses a mass spectrometer to see what elements there may be. Nothing is said about checking the boiling point of anything. The ovens heat the samples up to 1000 degrees celcius... say we start at 0 degrees, water will boil 0.003 percent through the experiment. They will measure how much water vapor is released, but they are heating the sample to release it then detecting how much with the mass spectrometer, not heating it and working out what melted by the temperature reached.
Yours was a good idea, but really NOT the same idea as the Nasa scientists. You are smart, but this idea of yours is NOT evidence of your smartness.
Scientists know this because they have been keeping record of one of the dig sites and have noticed that the white material has sublimated after exposure, "It must be ice" according to Phoenix Principal Investigator Peter Smith. Story.
Awesome.
They don't know if it's water, though, correct? I thought I read somewhere that there is a chance that it's CO2.
Regardless, very awesome. Is there anyway they can take samples? Also I'm not sure, but can the Phoenix come back to Earth?
The lander is going to dig into the ice and melt samples in it's TEGA ovens to see the molecular components of the soil/ice.
I'm not gonna lie, that video turned me on a bit.
REAL LIFE ROCKS!
I'm calling that they found Unobtainium.