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Net Neutrality and Bandwidth Speed

edited July 2006 in Everything Else
So I listened to the entire speech that Ted Stevens gave on net neutrality, and let's remember not to show mercy on him, just because he has a speech impediment. He should have done some sort of research before, or should have had somebody else deliver the speech who knew what they were talking about. Also, Steven's done other silly shit, like trying to drill in Alaska, and interestingly enough, alot of people hate him. By the way, I especially disliked the part where he tried to make that analogy with mail and movies, and how they're different ways to deliver them. It had nothing to do with net neutrality.

Recently, my family cancelled the cable service to our house. There are several reasons why. One's that the deal didn't come with a DVR. All it had was a digital cable box. Secondly, cox could not provide a phone service. And lastly, the bandwidth being provided was horrible. With phone service from Sage Communcations and internet and tv with Cox Communications, we were paying around 140 a month. This was a complete rip off, even more when we weren't getting the speed we were said to get.

Cox's argument was that our desktop computer was the problem one time, then they agreed and said they'd fix it, and they never did. They came out and measured the network speed instead of measuring the bandwidth speed that was running over the actual network. All they were doing was measuring my connection to their network, not the net. The reality was, the company did not have enough bandwidth to distribute, or they wished to conserve some for new customers.

We've now switched over to AT&T SBC with Yahoo DSL. The phone is obviously covered. The internet is running fast at 4 to 5 Mbps downstream and upstream at 600KBps. Before with cox, we were getting around 1 Mbps DS and 10KBps US. Nice change, and we supposedly had the best possible cable connection. And with Dish Network TV, we have a DVR (100 hours of video) with two channel inputs. This means, we can have two channels recording or playing at once, and you can do it from one satellite box. In total, this all cost us $100 a month.

I know this has less to do with net neutrality, but I'm just trying further the idea that some ISP's (like Cox) are run by greedy bastards who trick their customers into thinking they have the best deal. The only way we were able to find out about the AT&T SBC deal was over the mail. Cox seems to show up on every commercial break in our state.
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Comments

  • What little I know of last mile bandwidth makes it sound to me like while it is Cox's fault they might not be doing it intentionally. Just like the speeds of a wireless router advertise their speed under perfect labratory conditions if no one else on your cable node were using the internet it's possible you'd be able to get their advertised speeds. Trouble is the world doesn't work that way.
    DSL, on the other hand, doens't speed down with more users because you don't share your line with your neighbors.

    At least this is my mostly uninformed understanding. Feel free to school me as necessary.
  • I know very, very little about the internet and even I knew he was talking shit. Does he really think that while I sit here on the other side of the world posting in a forum I am causing a backlog and important military communications are being held up? Cause that sounds crazy.
  • On one hand: Yes, the military does need it's own net. For a variety of reasons, the least of which is because civilian traffic is slowing it down. Because it's too easy to tap the regular net: Even if they encrypt, the fact that there's a packet being sent from one place to another is important information. Also, the military needs much greater resiliance: If there's a bomb at a major AT+T hub, it shouldn't be able to shut down the whole DOD. Speed is a minor, but real issue, as military packets may indeed need to be someplace in 33ms instead of 120.

    But the whole thing is bullshit anyway. Even without net neutrality laws, the telco's can't do anything without a major backlash against them. Even then, Google will just light up all the dark fiber they've been buying up and set up it's own, truly neutral net. I, for one, Welcome our new Google overlords. Because, most likely for better, Google has more real power than the government. The Goverment has to bend somewhat to the will of the people, but Google can convince the people to bend.
  • Ahhh! Giant Ants!
  • This might be interesting:


    Here's the site where the discussion takes place.
  • The best way to speed up wireless is to change from 802.11g to 892.11a. Its range is comparable to band b/g but since it operates at the 5GHz frequency range there is less interference from mobile phones, microwaves and wireless handsets. Unfortunately the higher frequency also means walls and other solid objects reduce the range more than the reduction seen in the b/g band.

    The loss of net neutrality isn't a worry here in Albion due the large number of ISP's as such a scheme can only work if every service provider enforces the tiered system. The best way to stop such a system would seemingly be to support the small ISP's increasing the market competition and in turn making the implementation of net neutrality impossible.
  • The best way to speed up wireless is to change from 802.11g to 892.11a. Its range is comparable to band b/g but since it operates at the 5GHz frequency range there is less interference from mobile phones, microwaves and wireless handsets. Unfortunately the higher frequency also means walls and other solid objects reduce the range more than the reduction seen in the b/g band.
    Ummm...or we could just wait for 802.11n to become the new hotness.
  • Just giving the Military their own network may not help. I've seen too many cases where a customer buys a second fiber for "redundancy" only to have that fiber in the same sheath as the one that was just cut!
  • Net Neutrality in america is apparently dead. Or am I misunderstanding things. Not sure what the judge is saying with "free to choose ISPs" considering that I have been told that in many markets there are quasi-monopolies on internet service.
  • Remove the word quasi.

    He's speaking to a hypothetical America where options exist in every location and it's such an incorrect stance, it's laughable.
  • Yeah, most places have (effectively) no choice. We can have Bright House or Comcast here...so there's only the one option.
  • I was having the argument with a friend before coming to the forum and seeing this thread. I has remarked I had two options only in my area. He countered that I was an alpha user, front rubber, and not an example of what the market represents.

    He cannot understand that Internet access is shaping the works and that many other nations are ahead of us in all regards when it comes to the internet. It was infuriating dealing with such an intelligent man with so little understanding.
  • Quite literally, the only protection left is that the carriers need to inform us when they are prioritizing traffic. I don't know how specific this notice needs to be. Worst case it's just a blanket 1-line fine print at the bottom of your bill. The only REAL protection we have now is watchdogs and massive public shaming, should the carriers start to trot out all of their potential bullshit.
  • What baffles me is the confusion about what the internet is and is not and what role ISPs fill compared to the amount of power they claim to have.
  • edited January 2014
    I think the problem is we think we pay ISPs to bring us internet, where legally it seems we only pay them to deliver bits to our house. Whose bits and how many is not really part of that agreement.
    Post edited by George Patches on
  • The core issue, from what I understand, is how the FCC is classifying the Internet. Once that changes (which I'm fairly certain the FCC will now be strongarmed to investigate), this ruling is moot anyway.
  • Reclassifying the Internet as a utility rather than an information would be a HUGE undertaking, and would take brass balls leadership from the FCC to push through. I absolutely want to see this happen but have zero hope it ever will. The current chairman is a pushover, and the industry would be able to put up a very strong defense.
  • I heard that the ISPs actually had the nerve to say that making Internet a utility would hinder innovation and development. As if giving priority to one website over another would not have the same, and to a worse degree, affect on other industries.
    I mean in the long run it is not in their interest to even subtly censor what their customers see, since they will end up losing people to competition who don't.

    Of course corporations have not historically been great at foreseeing long term disaster in the face of short term profit. Also that sort of free market self regulation only works if they are the only ones doing it, if everyone jumps on the band wagon they people will have no recourse when their ISP decides to screw them.

    Though now that I think about it my electric company being classified as a utility does not stop them from screwing me from time to time, since I have no other option their either.( I live in RI where we have only one Electric company)

    Corporations just suck, unless you own one, then they are awesome. "Wait, so I can do what ever I want and 'Apple' will take the fall! 'Apple' is not even a person, how Great!"
    Ridiculous!
  • The problem with making it a utility would be deciding which parts of the network constitute a utility and which parts do not.

    If I host a website is my server part of the utility? What about the connection between my server and the first router? Second? Third? Where would we draw the demarcation lines?
  • HMTKSteve said:

    The problem with making it a utility would be deciding which parts of the network constitute a utility and which parts do not.

    If I host a website is my server part of the utility? What about the connection between my server and the first router? Second? Third? Where would we draw the demarcation lines?

    Very simple to solve. Nationalize all the wired and wireless phone and cable companies. Sprint, AT&T, Verizon, Comcast, etc. All the network infrastructure owned by the government is now the utility. Not owned by the feds, then it's private, like your personal telephone in your house.

    DONE
  • That is a very drastic step.

    What about companies like Level3? Would they be nationalized too? What about the CDNs?
  • Telecommunications networks in the US have been HEAVILY subsidized by tax payers and were built largely with taxpayer funds. In addition, telecoms were given HUGE tax breaks on the promise of infrastructure improvements that never actually materialized.

    Case closed. The only moral thing is to nationalize these companies, but it won't happen.
  • Fuck complainers. The Internet is too important to the future of, well, us.
  • @Muppet can you please provide accurate documentation to prove your assertion that the cost of the network was HEAVILY subsidized by TAXPAYERS. Also please provide details on these tax breaks and show how significant they were in paying for the cost of the network.

    Not saying whether or nor your assertion is true but I would like to see the hard data to back it up.
  • I don't have the numbers for the late 90s handy, when telecoms were given MASSIVE breaks in exchange for promised infrastructure upgrades that were never completed, but here's a report of more recent breaks, in the billions:

    http://www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/CorporateTaxDodgersReport.pdf

    And a more recent incentive program, also measured in billions:

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/posttech/2010/07/att_verizon_get_most_federal_a.html

    As for what proportion of the current network(s) are built with taxpayer money, that's probably unknowable, ultimately. For one thing, it depends on how you define "taxpayer money".
  • edited January 2014
    According to this article the portion covered by subsidies is very small indeed: http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/technology/1012/gallery.wireless_network_improvements/index.html
    Post edited by HMTKSteve on
  • I don't care if it's all private funding. Internet, electricity, water, and waste management should be nationalized.
  • Then let me ask you directly Rym: where is the demarcation point for nationalizing the internet? What constitutes the portion that needs to be nationalized and what portion is allowed to stay in private hands? Be as specific as possible.
  • edited January 2014
    What Rym said. Essential services are essential. The internet has gone well beyond luxury and into essential service, and net neutrality is a human rights issue.

    Also, CNN has all the veracity of FOX News. It should be viewed with extreme skepticism (but I'm not going to research it because it's a) moot and b) I'm dying.) :)
    Post edited by muppet on
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