This forum is in permanent archive mode. Our new active community can be found here.

Real Terrorist from Gitmo

edited March 2009 in News
I saw this really interesting thing on CNN. There was an actual terrorist from gitmo, and they're actually publishing what he has to say.

Sure, he's a crazy nut, but there is definitely truth to what he says. If you think about it, the direct and indirect crimes of the United States against civilians around the world, especially in Lebanon or through Israel, are in total a lot greater than the crimes of these terrorists. They're really just doing the same thing we are. It's just that because we have all the resources, and all the power, we get to be the good guys. To the victor goes the spoils, history is written by the winners, etc.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying terrorism, or any violence, is justified in any way. I'm just saying that perhaps some people in the US, and not just those from the maligned Bush administration, but others as well, should also face trial for war crimes. Unless we do that, the words of terrorists like these will continue to ring true against our hypocrisy. Also, it is possible that doing so will change the minds of at least a few of the less crazy terrorists out there.
«13

Comments

  • Sure, he's a crazy nut, but there is definitely truth to what he says. If you think about it, the direct and indirect crimes of the United States against civilians around the world, especially in Lebanon or through Israel, are in total a lot greater than the crimes of these terrorists. They're really just doing the same thing we are. It's just that because we have all the resources, and all the power, we get to be the good guys. To the victor goes the spoils, history is written by the winners, etc.
    Old news, welcome to the world and thank you for noticing.
  • Old news, welcome to the world and thank you for noticing.
    >:-o
    Don't be such a jerk. Better late than never.
  • edited March 2009
    Don't be such a jerk.
    Wait.. you just asked Nineless to stop being a jerk? Why didn't I think of that?
    Don't worry America, if you weren't ruining the world, someone would be.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • Asking Nine to stop being a jerk is like asking a bear to stop mauling you.
  • Asking Nine to stop being a jerk is like asking a bear to stop mauling you.
    He can't be a bear!
  • Asking Nine to stop being a jerk is like asking a bear to stop mauling you.
    Ah, but in soviet russia, you maul bear!

    (I know nine isn't russian, it's an unrelated russian reversal.)
  • In Soviet Russia, terrorists fear YOU!
  • Officials: Afghanistan Taliban leader was at Gitmo.
    Corrolation sometimes implies causation. If you lock up enough people, innocent or not, and torture them, when you let them go some of them might be resentful.
  • edited March 2009
    Officials: Afghanistan Taliban leader was at Gitmo.
    Corrolation sometimes implies causation. If you lock up enough people, innocent or not, and torture them, when you let them go some of them might be resentful.
    That's a very good point.

    We often see the same problem on a smaller scale with criminal recidivism. I have often heard people complain, "If we had just been able to keep that guy in jail, he wouldn't have been able to mug that old lady." We can't keep people locked away forever. When they are released, they sometimes do bad things.
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • Old news, welcome to the world and thank you for noticing.
    Don't be such a jerk. Better late than never.
    Seriously. Don't assume all of us have seen/heard it just because YOU have. There are plenty of older interesting things on the internet that I don't know about, and I appreciate it when someone brings them to my attention. Not all of use have time to surf the net for hours a day picking through every piece of detritus.
  • Meh - Americans: Don't be under any illusions - the rest of the world has stereotyped you and aside from thinking you are bad at geography, overweight, etc. we also think you're power hungry and have taken to playing the role of both the world's policemen and the big bad bully. Wasn't the war in Iraq really about Oil?
  • Wasn't the war in Iraq really about Oil?
    Uh, no.
  • edited March 2009
    Wasn't the war in Iraq really about Oil?
    Uh, no.
    What was it really about, then?
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • edited March 2009
    Wasn't the war in Iraq really about Oil?
    Uh, no.
    What was it really about, then?
    Daddy issues, if Oliver Stone is to be believed. W. was an entertaining movie; it portrayed Bush as a little child trying to finish the job from the first Gulf War. There's also an interesting war room scene where the highest-level leaders reveal it's all about dominating the oil supply to ensure American economic dominance against Chinese expansion for the next century. But then, it's just a film, and Stone has been often criticized for his lack of historical accuracy. If it was all about oil, then we did a very, very bad job of procuring those resources because I don't see the extra oil in our hands.
    Post edited by Jason on
  • Wasn't the war in Iraq really about Oil?
    Uh, no.
    What was it really about, then?
    Many things including, but not exclusively...

    1) Keeping the military-industrial complex steaming along and fueling defense contractors with wads of extra cash.
    2) Real neo-conservative political ideology. You create an enemy (terrorists) in order to unite and strengthen the nation. (See Watchmen).
    3) The Democratic peace theory. Or to put it in more plain terms. How come after WWII Japan and Germany became relatively awesome, but after the Gulf War was Iraq not as awesome? Here's an excuse to finish the job.
    4) Incompetency.
    5) Daddy didn't finish the job.
    6) 9/11, someone has to pay for this, and we can't get Bin Laden, so let's pick on Saddam!

    There was oil there. And you can say oil is a reason, if you want. But really, what difference has it made? If you really want to worry about a war over oil, turn your eyes to Venezuela.
  • Seriously. Don't assume all of us have seen/heard it just because YOU have. There are plenty of older interesting things on the internet that I don't know about, and I appreciate it when someone brings them to my attention. Not all of use have time to surf the net for hours a day picking through every piece of detritus.
    Did you read the specific part I quoted Nuri? It has nothing to do with 'having seen something on the internet'. Things like these have occured and talked about on various news outlets for decades. Don't worry, this isn't just America. Iraq, Israel, Kosovo, and then we're already back to 1990. This isn't about being a jerk, or having seen something on the internet before others, that's just short-sighted. This is about the shit that Western civilization causes under the banner of 'good' and how it is ignored by people. That's why I said:
    Old news, welcome to the world
    and then thanked the person for noticing.

    How often have you heard, "Did you hear that about 15 innocent people dying because the US Army/the NATO?" against "So I heard they finally caught Osama Bin Laden!". The latter significantly outnumbers the former. You may view my posts as unkind, but how unkind must you be to ignore the reality of all that innocent suffering and instead call me a jerk.
  • edited March 2009
    Wasn't the war in Iraq really about Oil?
    Uh, no.
    What was it really about, then?
    Many things including, but not exclusively...

    1) Keeping the military-industrial complex steaming along and fueling defense contractors with wads of extra cash.
    2)Real neo-conservativepolitical ideology. You create an enemy (terrorists) in order to unite and strengthen the nation. (See Watchmen).
    3)The Democratic peace theory. Or to put it in more plain terms. How come after WWII Japan and Germany became relatively awesome, but after the Gulf War was Iraq not as awesome? Here's an excuse to finish the job.
    4) Incompetency.
    5) Daddy didn't finish the job.
    6) 9/11, someone has to pay for this, and we can't get Bin Laden, so let's pick on Saddam!

    There was oil there. And you can say oil is a reason, if you want. But really, what difference has it made? If you really want to worry about a war over oil, turn your eyes to Venezuela.
    Well, (1) sounds somewhat like a crazy conspiracy theory, and no proof was cited for it. (2) and (3) are rather disingenuous, as it's very, very hard to believe that anyone in the GWB administration really cared more that we were united and strengthened as a nation enough to kill thousands of people in a war, or that it was worth a war in which thousands of people would be killed simply to "make Iraq awesome." (4) might have some merit. There is no real proof for (5). (6) was one of the reasons given by the GWB administration, however, as you imply, it doesn't make sense, so it hardly stands as a rational reason.

    On the Iraq-was-for-oil side of the coin, we have Alan Greenspan: “I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil.”, General John Abizaid (Ret.): "Of course it's about oil.", Henry Kissinger: "They are there as an expression of the American national interest to prevent the Iranian combination of imperialism and fundamentalist ideology from dominating a region on which the energy supplies of the industrial democracies depend.", and Global Policy Forum: Oil is at the heart of the crisis that leads towards a US war against Iraq.

    With all due respect, I think it's a lot more reasonable for Mr. Sarai to believe it was about oil than any of the six reasons you propound.
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • Well, especially pertaining to 2 and 3 watch this BBC Documentary, if you haven't already.
  • This isn't about being a jerk, or having seen something on the internet before others, that's just short-sighted. This is about the shit that Western civilization causes under the banner of 'good' and how it is ignored by people. That's why I said:
    And you assume that we're not well aware of the misdeeds of our governments. This is old news to every literate person in America, but that doesn't preclude discussion, which you've so nicely derailed with your knee-jerk posts.
    how unkind must you be to ignore the reality of all that innocent suffering and instead call me a jerk.
    You have, as you have been prone to do lately, completely missed the point and over-reacted to a straw man of your own creation. Settle down. This was probably going to be a discussion about the current state of things a la Gitmo, the media perception, and so forth. Instead, you overreact, effectively accuse everyone here of being ignorant to the issue, and add nothing to the conversation. Chill.
  • By that logic, we should never point out a corrupt deed done by a politician because people already expect politicians to be corrupt. Don't bother pointing that stuff out to anyone, because anyone who doesn't know is obviously not worth the effort to educate, right?

    I agree with Rym. Knowing about an issue existing doesn't preclude us from discussing it, and there just might be some people who have opinions on the matter. That specific story might spark some thoughts or insight on the topic.
  • And you assume that we're not well aware of the misdeeds of our governments.
    No I did not. I said people ignore it, not that people aren't aware of it.
    which you've so nicely derailed with your knee-jerk posts.
    How so? I just made my post, which isn't knee-jerk at all, and that got misunderstood. The misunderstanding is the cause of derailment. Or are you convinced that a single person can derail a thread? Even to a troll someone has to respond before anything derails.
    Instead, you overreact, effectively accuse everyone here of being ignorant to the issue
    This is laughably untrue. Concerning overreacting, that entire depends on you perception, so if you think that's the case, enjoy your view. Concerning the blaming of forumgoers being ignorant, that is just bullshit. At most there could be some blaming in regards of misunderstanding. I talked about people in general, not about people on the forum.
    By that logic, we should never point out a corrupt deed done by a politician because people already expect politicians to be corrupt. Don't bother pointing that stuff out to anyone, because anyone who doesn't know is obviously not worth the effort to educate, right?

    I agree with Rym. Knowing about an issue existing doesn't preclude us from discussing it, and there just might be some people who have opinions on the matter. That specific story might spark some thoughts or insight on the topic.
    This is painful. You respond to two of my posts, and both times you talk about something completely unrelated to my post. First you blame me of reading things on the internet that others have not yet read, and now you talk about not pointing things out which wasn't anywhere near my points.
  • edited March 2009
    You may view my posts as unkind, but how unkind must you be to ignore the reality of all that innocent suffering and instead call me a jerk.
    Who said anything about ignoring the problem? I thought about this long before this post, but did I grouse at Scott for bringing it up?
    No. You did. You were being all indignant and cranky. That's the only reason I responded like that. You've been so grumpy lately its hard to have a conversation.
    Post edited by gomidog on
  • No. You did. You were being all indignant and cranky.
    This is my greatest concern at the moment.
  • edited March 2009
    Meh - Americans: Don't be under any illusions - the rest of the world has stereotyped you and aside from thinking you are bad at geography, overweight, etc. we also think you're power hungry and have taken to playing the role of both the world's policemen and the big bad bully. Wasn't the war in Iraq really about Oil?
    Every Nation has stereotypes. I am not going to make excuses for the inexcusable actions of my Nation, but I don't expect any one average citizen of any Nation to be held responsible for all of the crimes - past and present - of any Nation.
    The U.S. has done a lot of good in the world, too.
    Also, wasn't it you that wants the U.S. to feed the world and fix everyone else's problems? So the U.S. should but out of international affairs unless we are providing charity? Again, not making excuses for the U.S., but every Nation (particularly superpowers) have crimes to their names. People can stereotype the U.S. and sometimes they will be right, but not always - just like people thinking all Middle Easterners are terrorists or that African Nations are just poor tribal cultures raping and killing each other constantly. Neither of those stereotypes are true. They are all myopic and disgusting.
    It is easy to define a group of people by their worst deeds/attributes and far too easy to ignore the good that they provide and the shared humanity they possess.

    The world hates us, but they will gladly eat our bread.
    Post edited by Kate Monster on
  • I really don't believe I'm going to take sides with Nineless, but, if the same comment would have come from someone else, people would have just loled or made some silly comment and carried on as I'm pretty sure I've seen before in this forum in similar situations. So that either says a lot about the hypocrisy of the forums or how big of a jerk Nineless is conceived to be that people are really defensive of your comments.
  • You're right. For me it was basically the straw that broke the camel's back. He'd been being quarrelsome, like I said, and so I got cross with him at that relatively minor comment.
  • I really don't believe I'm going to take sides with Nineless, but, if the same comment would have come from someone else, people would have just loled or made some silly comment and carried on as I'm pretty sure I've seen before in this forum in similar situations. So that either says a lot about the hypocrisy of the forums or how big of a jerk Nineless is conceived to be that people are really defensive of your comments.
    I see your point, but I think there is something specific about the timing, placement, and wording of hists posts that makes them particularly jerky. Personally, I don't even look at the users on posts, I just look at the contents. I see the jerkiness first, then I look up and say "oh, of course" afterwards.
  • I am unfamiliar with Nineless's antics. I don't really care who made the comment; it doesn't change my reaction. It was an unproductive, rude post that didn't contribute to the discussion at all. It annoys me when people dismiss a valid subject because it is "old news." I personally thought that the article Scott posted about raised an interesting topic of conversation, but instead of a topical thread we ended up with a bunch of ridiculing posts at the top.

    Regarding the subject:
    Yes, America as a country is a bully and kind of an ass. Not every American is party to that. I personally don't control our foreign policy, and since I can't kill all the idiots that live around me, it's difficult to impose my views on the government. Unfortunately there is very little required in order for you to vote here. You don't even have to know anything about the candidates. However, the way America interacts with the rest of the world is a great discussion topic, and I'd love to hear how people in other countries view us in more detail. By this, I don't mean off-the-cuff insults, but rather well-thought-out views that have substance and are balanced. Consider both the good and bad things about the country. It's fine to say that Americans are assholes, but I want to know WHY you think it.
  • Hee hee - okay, first - I'm a girl for those who didn't know.
    Also, wasn't it you that wants the U.S. to feed the world and fix everyone else's problems? So the U.S. should but out of international affairs unless we are providing charity?

    It is easy to define a group of people by their worst deeds/attributes and far too easy to ignore the good that they provide and the shared humanity they possess.
    The world hates us, but they will gladly eat our bread.
    One: I didn't say they should fix everybody else's problems - nor did I say they should feed the world - I said America consumes a lot of food relative to other countries, and opened discussion around the issue to see what opinions were. I feel that was addressed.

    We don't eat your bread. We don't want to eat your bread. Ours tastes better, even though we have less of it.

    I'm not blaming all Americans, nor am I trying to make a personal attack - I'm pointing out that the views expressed in the article were, for me, not surprising or the exception - for me those views are the norm. I love the discussion that has been generated because of it (although I think some people are getting a bit personal - really now - it's healthy debate and it's supposed to be fun!)
    It annoys me when people dismiss a valid subject because it is "old news."

    Regarding the subject:
    Yes, America as a country is a bully and kind of an ass. Not every American is party to that. IHowever, the way America interacts with the rest of the world is a great discussion topic, and I'd love to hear how people in other countries view us in more detail. By this, I don't mean off-the-cuff insults, but rather well-thought-out views that have substance and are balanced. Consider both the good and bad things about the country. It's fine to say that Americans are assholes, but I want to know WHY you think it.
    I agree on the point of the article being interesting. Not every non-American thinks that American is a world bully, I know loads of people who think it's an amazing place with an amazing culture - so much so that they will emulate it to a great extent at the expense of their own culture - which also raises the point that instead of being seen as a country of diversity, we tend to generalise and lump all Americans together and say that they have "a culture".

    As for what we think and why: our point of contact with America is via the media, and usually not on a one-on-one interaction with individual Americans. CNN tends to portray Americans as the do-gooders of the world as a whole - not only within their own borders. A point of contention I have with American media portrayal is specifically that they create a false perception of the third world - when they do filming, they usually film in the deepest, darkest recesses and never in urban, built up areas, which reinforces false perceptions amongst their fellow Americans who actively watch the media. The Bush Administration and it's associated activities did a lot to harm the reputation of America as a whole, and the way the scandal with Clinton was handled was also considered "going overboard". This is just a high-level overview, and I'm sure not the well-though-out views that you're looking for.

    Is it right to blame a single person for the faults of a country as a whole? No! Collectively, as outsiders, we can't judge until we have spent some time there and learn to understand what the dynamics that explain our perceptions entail. Is it good to have the discussion? Yes!
Sign In or Register to comment.