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The Martial Arts Thread

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  • edited June 2010
    I learned to punch from a guy who was Vasiliev's student for five years before he moved out here for a job/school opportunity. This little east indian guy, you can see him in some of the official videos actually, which is kind of amusing to me, and when I first trained with him he would just kind of hit me, and it would pretty much knock me over. I'm one of the bigger guys who train there, so it was a great source of amusement to one of the guy's girlfriends who was watching to see a little tiny scrawny guy send me on my ass with minimal effort. However he taught me how to hit effectively, enough so that after showing someone how a push felt I got the nickname 'executioner' as kind of a joke.

    My crazy drug addict second cousin who is normally a bit of a terror is actually afraid of me because I hit him twice. Once to show him a normal/boxing kind of punch, and once with a systema punch. It took him about 15 mins to recover.

    My point, other than being a narcissist is that if I, a punk who's only been doing it for around 3 years, can cause enough shock and awe with what I know against other fighters I know (my boss who has 30+ years of silat/BJJ/Wing Chun/Arness, my friends who still do goju style karate, my boxing trainer in HS, a couple of brawlers who just go to bars and fight constantly) to win bouts of varying intensity (our standard rules are no permanent damage or killing the other guy), then there is something to the art. Now the magic death touch stuff, whoever wants to believe that, good for them, my 'magic death touch' is a rabbit punch personally. Or an eye gouge.
    Post edited by Sova on
  • From personal experience, I know that at my old gym, when the Krav Maga guys would drop in on the muay thai and BJJ classes, they were basically ragdolls, and we could do whatever we wanted to them.
    That doesn't necessarily mean one is better than the other. It depends on their skill of course. Our wrestling team in high school had a member who was training in BJJ for several years and he wasn't terribly good at wrestling. He still lost in tournaments about the same as all the other new comers.
  • edited June 2010
    Combat tonight was awesome! Except I was injured in a really strange way. Normally a 3 club combat injury, for me, is something like this:
    image

    But tonight Alex grabbed a club as it hit my face, and cut me in two place! I kept playing, and it felt really weird, as though blood was dripping into my eye at all times.
    image

    You should have seen the other guy! I didn't touch him. Of course, the better you are at playing combat, the less likely you are to cause any injuries. It's about attacking the weapon of the other person, not their body, and so is pretty unique as a martial art.
    Post edited by Luke Burrage on
  • edited June 2010
    @Churba & Sova -- thanks for the info, guys. I don't know, I'm still pretty skeptical, and will probably remain skeptical until I can see some of this stuff being done full speed against someone who isn't an "accomplice". I don't doubt that they might know how to punch really hard and some stuff like that, but that doesn't necessarily say much for actually being able to fight. I also don't doubt that some of these guys can really fight, but is that entirely from their Systema? Or do they have some boxing or sambo or something in their backgrounds? I guess it's entirely possible that systema has a whole other wing of practical fighting skills that are trained in hard sparring, but I haven't been able to find any evidence of it on Youtube. Churba, maybe I'll check out this Martin Wheeler guy some time, and I'll let you know. Maybe we can both go down there once you get out here.

    As a side note, Churba and I had a bit of a discussion about aikido a while back, and aikido's in the same boat. I spent about an hour scouring Youtube for aikido videos that were anything but demonstrations with compliant partners, and couldn't find a single one. That sort of thing makes me really suspicious that maybe they have something to hide.
    That doesn't necessarily mean one is better than the other. It depends on their skill of course. Our wrestling team in high school had a member who was training in BJJ for several years and he wasn't terribly good at wrestling. He still lost in tournaments about the same as all the other new comers.
    Of course, yes, it depends on their skill. However, I did regularly see guys who'd been in the BJJ and muay thai classes for a couple of months dominating people who'd been in the Krav Maga class for over a year. Now, it's entirely possible that those Krav guys were much better prepared to deal with someone attacking them with a knife or a gun, but I have to say, I don't think they were very well prepared for someone punching them. I know this is all anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth.

    As for the guy at your high school who came from BJJ to wrestling, I have to say that his lack of success isn't surprising -- BJJ is a VERY different discipline from wrestling, and both disciplines instill instinctive reactions that are a big liability in the other. In BJJ, you learn never to show your back to your opponent, and you learn to go straight to your back whenever you're taken down. Obviously, the wrong thing to do in wrestling. It's also worth nothing that BJJ is very much an incomplete grappling art, which is severely lacking in takedown techniques and defense. That means that a BJJ guy coming into wrestling is likely to be taken down, and have basically no answer for it, because BJJ bottom game is predicated entirely on being on your back. For what it's worth, judoka tend to do very well in wrestling, and vice versa.
    Post edited by Funfetus on
  • Of course, yes, it depends on their skill. However, I did regularly see guys who'd been in the BJJ and muay thai classes for a couple of months dominating people who'd been in the Krav Maga class for over a year. Now, it's entirely possible that those Krav guys were much better prepared to deal with someone attacking them with a knife or a gun, but I have to say, I don't think they were very well prepared for someone punching them. I know this is all anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth.
    Yeah it could be many factors. I just worry that experiences like that which you described will leave people thinking Krav Maga is in some way inferior. The quality of their instructors could be the cause, I don't know.
  • edited June 2010
    thanks for the info, guys. I don't know, I'm still pretty skeptical, and will probably remain skeptical until I can see some of this stuff being done full speed against someone who isn't an "accomplice". I don't doubt that they might know how to punch really hard and some stuff like that, but that doesn't necessarily say much for actually being able to fight.
    Perfectly fair and reasonable, were our positions reversed, I'd be saying exactly the same thing.
    I guess it's entirely possible that systema has a whole other wing of practical fighting skills that are trained in hard sparring, but I haven't been able to find any evidence of it on Youtube.
    The problem is twofold, in this respect - Systema isn't an art in the traditional sense, with it being the proper name of one thing, Systema being, essentially, the russian version of "Kung Fu" - A unifying name for a whole bunch of different stuff. The second half of the problem is that the most popular, advertised, and known version is Mikhail Ryabko's Systema(AKA Ryabko systema) - vasilliev being the most senior student of such - and it's pretty woo-filled.
    However, the version I far prefer is Kadochnikov's Systema, and is based on the application of physical sciences(such as Physics, Mechanics and Biomechanics) and a touch of basic psychology, rather than Randi bullshit - I've not trained very much in it yet, however, but I've learned up on it quite a bit, and seen it in action.
    Churba, maybe I'll check out this Martin Wheeler guy some time, and I'll let you know. Maybe we can both go down there once you get out here.
    I'm planning to check it out - The martial artist I mentioned in my last post has studied there some, and she has only good things to say.
    As a side note, Churba and I had a bit of a discussion about aikido a while back, and aikido's in the same boat. I spent about an hour scouring Youtube for aikido videos that were anything but demonstrations with compliant partners, and couldn't find a single one. That sort of thing makes me really suspicious that maybe they have something to hide.
    We still owe each other a Fight For Beer, speaking of that.
    Of course, yes, it depends on their skill. However, I did regularly see guys who'd been in the BJJ and muay thai classes for a couple of months dominating people who'd been in the Krav Maga class for over a year. Now, it's entirely possible that those Krav guys were much better prepared to deal with someone attacking them with a knife or a gun, but I have to say, I don't think they were very well prepared for someone punching them. I know this is all anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth.
    Random anecdote - When I was living in headingly, I was helping out with a TKD class at the hyde park social club(not so much a club, as a bar, with very cheap but very tasty beer) And the instructor had his students doing knife drills. So, I decided to mess with them some. A few drills in, I'm waiting for the first student to get cocky - and one does. So, I face up, wave the knife threateningly a bit, and goad him into attacking - he leaps forward with a snap kick, So I jumped back, and tossed the knife off to the side. He figures I'm pretending to be a mugger who was scared by the attack, and is giving up, so he turns to the teacher to see what he thought - Just as I pull a bright blue plastic(but realistically shaped and sized), spring-power pellet gun, jump him, and force him to the ground, and when he refuses to give up his imaginary wallet, Mock-execute him. Sucker.
    In BJJ, you learn never to show your back to your opponent, and you learn to go straight your back whenever you're taken down. Obviously, the wrong thing to do in wrestling. It's also worth nothing that BJJ is very much an incomplete grappling art, which is severely lacking in takedown techniques and defense.
    I was actually speaking of this to someone the other day - Specifically, that facing a BJJ fighter of equal skill, I've got the advantage as long as I'm on my feet, as I've a strong game for takedowns and getting the opponent to the mat real hard, but as soon as I get taken to the mat, I'm on the back foot and purely in defensive-get-outta-there-and-into-a-stronger-position mode, and they would have the advantage over me, as my grapple game is weaker than a BJJ fighter's. It's all a game of where the strengths and weaknesses lie.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • Have you guys ever tried pen fighting? Strip naked to the waist, hold a chunky felt tipped pen each, and pretend they are knives. The rules are that you can only strike with the pen, but you are allowed to block or grapple or grab. I've done this a few times, and learned a lot about reaction times and leaving space between me and an opponent. It's really, really good fun.
  • Have you guys ever tried pen fighting? Strip naked to the waist, hold a chunky felt tipped pen each, and pretend they are knives. The rules are that you can only strike with the pen, but you are allowed to block or grapple or grab. I've done this a few times, and learned a lot about reaction times and leaving space between me and an opponent. It's really, really good fun.
    Hell yeah! Used to play that all the time in school, till they got shirty about it, and started claiming that the pens were "Vandalism tools" and banned them. We did it after anyway, we just had to be circumspect.
  • edited June 2010
    We've done something similar albeit with more clothes on, and able to use the other body parts for attacking, but only the pen marks were really examined afterwards. I like scratch sticks too, but some people whine about them which makes the training less useful.

    Also as churba pointed out Systema isn't a martial art the way most think of a martial art. Usually a martial art is comprised of a series of techniques, blocks, strikes, submissions etc that define them. Systema is more of an approach to training in my experience, whereas my boxing and karate where more 'you stand like this or this, you have your hands here, you move like this, punch like this, these are the throws or combos you do'. Systema you're given more philosophies to follow, keep 'the form' which is back straight, knees slightly bent, stay loose, always move and always breathe. Other than that there are a series of drills that present you with different problems and you are forced to improvise effective solutions, more like an improv session in a jazz band then a rehearsal for a concert type band.

    The drills usually start working with only one partner to kind of get the idea and you usually switch off to get a feel for different body types, then you are usually put into a larger group to apply it on more than one opponent and train awareness. So it might start out with one on one work on stikes/avoidance where you use just arms, then arms and feet, then arms feet and takedowns, then you go to a group etc. The idea is to start off where someone can figure something out about 75% of the time, then when they get more comfortable with it, you turn up the intensity and complexity until you are going full speed against multiple opponents.

    Weapons are done in a similar fashion, although for more of the civilian stuff you focus more on the disarms and less lethal implementations, although if you're aware of the effective killing strikes/holds etc you can apply them quite readily.

    So as you can imagine almost everyone develops a slightly different style specific to their body type vs the opponents body type and the situation at hand, there aren't really any specific drilled techniques, everything is simply an application of the general philosophy and the drills you work. That's why it's important to really work with a good group who drills different situations effectively and as realistically as possible, and why different practitioners styles can look so varied.

    I personally was influenced heavily in my approach by the WWII guys, like Applegate, Fairbairn and Sykes. I like the 'get them to the ground quickly and with something that will jar their bones, then finish them' or 'get them into a position for a neck break or other position where finishing the fight is more effective'. Some of the guys have backgrounds like muai thai or BJJ and they'll usually work things a lot differently than me, either going for more of a clinch-break style or a take down to break style. It really depends on how you like to fight.


    As for the differences between Kadochnikov and Ryabko is really more of an advertisement thing when you get down to it. The Ryabco stuff has the woo woo in videos and stuff, but I've never actually seen anyone practicing it, everything I've ever done was centered around breaking someones balance and then using movement and punches or pressure depending on how nice you are to take the guy down. I've been hit in the groin, cranked by the neck, had my legs kicked out from under me, been choked out and punched in the kidneys, but I've still to come across the magical woo woo in person. Most of the stuff I've seen in the Kodacnikov videos is the same drills that I've done in class too, even some of what you would call techniques end up happening in class. So if there's a difference other than the ridiculous marketing I've yet to see it very clearly. I personally wish that they would just stop with the crazy, at least on the videos, if they want to talk about it in person, then whatever, after you know how to slam a guy's head into the pavement, then that's great, but don't talk about that stuff on a video.
    Post edited by Sova on
  • I'd really like to start taking martial arts classes starting later this year. It's something I've always wanted to do with myself but never got around to. Thing is, I'm near completely ignorant to what would be best suited to me, etc. Some advice would be cool.

    What I'm looking for is more of a means to be physically active and involved in something. I'm not trying to become Bruce Lee or anything like that. I've also got anger management issues that I'm working on learning to control, and I heard that martial arts are one way to make your mind less... explodey. Being able to defend myself would be a bonus, but it's not necessary.

    My transportation is limited. I can walk or take the bus, and depending on the time of day my fiancee can drive me places, but I can't depend on her. Schools that I know are within my reach are:

    1. Kung Fu/Judo place down the street. Close by and convenient, but the instructor doesn't seem to speak very good English. I don't think I've ever seen him have a non-Chinese pupil in his class, and the one time I tried to have a conversation with him it was a bit challenging. That could be a problem.

    2. Aikido place, accessible by bus. This place has a website in plain English and seems a little less secluded.

    3. Seen several Tae Kwon Do places around.

    4. I recently spotted a single Kendo place not far from a bus route I could take.

    I do live in Queens, so I have access to everything that's in Manhattan, which is likely... everything. It'd just be a really long way to and from.
  • I'm a couple months into Kendo and I'm really enjoying it. Yesterday was the first day that I was able to practice with my full set of Bogu on and it was a whole other experience. Looks like the first tournament I'll be ready to go to is in April, so I'm already training hard to make sure I'm ready to be my best when I get there.
  • edited February 2011
    This should almost go in the TOTD thread, but I thought this was a better place.

    This is a video of me getting beat at my first tournament, on Nov 13, 2010.


    This was my last match out of four, and it was in the Absolute division (no weightclasses, no belt ranks) so I walked in on it knowing I was going to lose. I just wanted another fight. I lost my other matches as well, but I had a couple of good battles. I'm currently an orange belt. I took judo through my school last semester, and I took judo and jujitsu this semester, training 2-3 times a week. I've been getting much better, my skills are miles above what they were at the beginning of this semester, and my cardio and strength have been great as well.

    Judo and jujitsu have been a ton of fun to train in, and I would recommend them to anyone interested in the martial arts, especially if you are looking for something that you can train full-contact without the worry of getting your head knocked off.
    Post edited by imptac on
  • edited December 2010
    So this was a BJJ tournament, right? And you're a judo orange belt? Hell, holding off a blue belt that long is an accomplishment in itself. :) My first BJJ tournament, I only got one match, and I lost.

    What are your favorite throws? Favorite submissions?
    Post edited by Funfetus on
  • Dammit Andrew, me so jelly.
  • edited December 2010
    Dammit Andrew, me so jelly.
    I keep saying, you should get back into it, man! Do what I do, don't think about it, don't mull it over, just fucking do it.

    Edit - Andrew, how you doing with it currently? I'm actually quite interesting in your progress, how you getting along? Feeling confident for the tourney? Still going?
    Post edited by Churba on
  • Edit - Andrew, how you doing with it currently? I'm actually quite interesting in your progress, how you getting along? Feeling confident for the tourney? Still going?
    I love it, been practicing around three times a week, although I've had miss a class this week due to work. I've also started staying for the more advanced practice which is really killing me, but I know it will be worth it. I'm going to try to get some film of me when I go to my one on one practice with a friend, maybe I'll post it here. As a side note, my feet are getting pretty fucked from it. Getting blisters on your blisters is not fun.
  • edited December 2010
    I keep saying, you should get back into it, man! Do what I do, don't think about it, don't mull it over, just fucking do it.
    I can't, there's no club near where I am. I might go and see if I can join the long-sword practice group at the armouries.

    Also, kendo is something you have to practice pretty reguarly. Maybe I can find an empty car park/gym.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • I love it, been practicing around three times a week, although I've had miss a class this week due to work. I've also started staying for the more advanced practice which is really killing me, but I know it will be worth it.
    I'm quite glad you enjoy it - there are some people who get into martial arts, and they end up just grinding through it for the sake of grinding through it, because they WANT to be good at it, but they don't ENJOY getting there.
    I go to my one on one practice with a friend, maybe I'll post it here.
    Can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be pretty interested and appreciative of that.
    As a side note, my feet are getting pretty fucked from it. Getting blisters on your blisters is not fun.
    Word, man. Is there anything you can do about it? Put some pads in your boots? Wear different socks? I don't know the protocol there.
  • Word, man. Is there anything you can do about it? Put some pads in your boots? Wear different socks? I don't know the protocol there.
    You practice kendo barefoot haha. I've bandaged my feet once or twice for practice, but my feet are starting to slowly callus over. I'm getting used to the pain, the worst part is that I'm still not used to the sheer physical endurance required (although a lot of the problems stem from the fact that I overly tense myself).
    I'm quite glad you enjoy it - there are some people who get into martial arts, and they end up just grinding through it for the sake of grinding through it, because they WANT to be good at it, but they don't ENJOY getting there.
    I think a major component is being able to practice with people you get along with well. Everyone I practice with at my dojo is super nice. We go out to dinner after practice almost every week and I've been to a couple gatherings which is great.
    Can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be pretty interested and appreciative of that.
    I'll try to do what I can.
  • the worst part is that I'm still not used to the sheer physical endurance required
    Redneck katana?
  • You practice kendo barefoot haha. I've bandaged my feet once or twice for practice, but my feet are starting to slowly callus over. I'm getting used to the pain, the worst part is that I'm still not used to the sheer physical endurance required (although a lot of the problems stem from the fact that I overly tense myself).
    All I know is that you have a Shinai, Armor, and there is some swordfighting going on. Never investigated Kendo that much, besides borrowing a few techniques for whappin' people.
  • edited December 2010
    So this was a BJJ tournament, right? And you're a judo orange belt? Hell, holding off a blue belt that long is an accomplishment in itself. :) My first BJJ tournament, I only got one match, and I lost.

    What are your favorite throws? Favorite submissions?
    This was at a submission grappling tournament, and I was lucky enough to get four matches, which I lost.
    As for favorite techniques, my Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi is my standby for getting people moving and trying to open them up, and I like to follow with a Kouchi/Ouchi Gari. I'm working on my Harai Goshi and Uhci Mata, but most of my hip throws need work in randori. I've also been putting some work into my deashi harai lately, ever since a brown belt got me with a no-handed one. For you non judo people out there, that means he managed to get me down with a foot sweep without using his hands to put me off balance.
    In terms of submissions, I like the triangle choke from all angles, and my teacher has us work it from all angles, from the back, attacking the turtle, off your back, etc... I am also a big fan of the rubber guard, thanks to how flexible I am, and I really like the gogoplata from that position.
    Post edited by imptac on
  • edited December 2010
    I take Uechi-Ryu karate and would swear by it. It has a small move-set, a heavy emphasis on form and stance, and we condition the body a fuckton. Even if you don't think the style is effective, this is always useful:

    "Iron Body"

    edit: most of this video is pointless, but there is some good stuff (the part where they break shit)
    I could probably find a better video, but I'm too lazy right now
    Post edited by Ikatono on
  • Apart from fencing - which has absolutely no practical application whatsoever but is superb for building coordination, reflexes, agility, and fitness - I just box a bit.

    Anybody who says boxing isn't a practical martial art is kidding themselves. It's not a complete martial art, of course, but go find some videos of Chuck Liddell flattening BJJ champions and tell me it doesn't have a very real application. It's not sophisticated, and it won't teach you to take on multiple opponents, and it won't teach you how to kick, and it won't do you any good on the ground. It is, however, the straight-up most efficient and powerful way to punch the crap out of somebody.
  • For teenagers,if there's a smaller dojo nearby without enough teens for them to have a separate class, it's worth looking at. When I was 13, there was only one other teen, so I was moved into the adult class. As long as the adults aren't dicks, it's really awesome working and socializing with adults, and it's a great workout. Between that class and puberty, I shot from about 100 lbs to 185 lbs in a few years.
  • This was at a submission grappling tournament, and I was lucky enough to get four matches, which I lost.
    Submission grappling, with the gi, but not BJJ rules? What were the rules?
    As for favorite techniques, my Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi is my standby for getting people moving and trying to open them up, and I like to follow with a Kouchi/Ouchi Gari. I'm working on my Harai Goshi and Uhci Mata, but most of my hip throws need work in randori. I've also been putting some work into my deashi harai lately, ever since a brown belt got me with a no-handed one.
    Nice. Ashiwaza is my best category of throws, though deashi has never been easy for me. I get a lot of okuri ashi barai, sasae, and especially hiza guruma. As far as big throws, harai goshi is the only one I get with any consistency.
    In terms of submissions, I like the triangle choke from all angles, and my teacher has us work it from all angles, from the back, attacking the turtle, off your back, etc... I am also a big fan of the rubber guard, thanks to how flexible I am, and I really like the gogoplata from that position.
    Do you actually pull off the gogoplata much? It's practically theoretical. As for me, probably 9/10 of the submissions I get are armbars -- probably because you can hit them from any position.
    Anybody who says boxing isn't a practical martial art is kidding themselves. It's not acompletemartial art, of course, but go find some videos of Chuck Liddell flattening BJJ champions and tell me it doesn't have a very real application.
    Well, to be fair, Chuck's wins were due more to his wrestling than his boxing. He was just lucky enough to face a division full of grapplers who couldn't take him down. He wasn't even much of a boxer -- he just had a solid chin, and he hit hard. He got outboxed a lot, but he was usually able to absorb shots long enough to land a big one. Now that his chin's shot, look where he is.
    and it won't teach you to take on multiple opponents
    A friend of mine with a kickboxing background has acquitted himself quite well in fights against multiple opponents, and I've never seen him throw anything but punches in a street fight. You may not be taught to take on multiple opponents in boxing, but it still gives you a decent shot. There are a few random videos of guys who are obviously boxers fighting crowds on youtube.
    It is, however, the straight-up most efficient and powerful way to punch the crap out of somebody.
    It is also, unfortunately, straight-up the most efficient and powerful way to break your hands in a real fight.
  • @Funfetus
    The tournament had a gi and nogi. The rules for this tournament were one 5 minute round, first to make the other tap out wins. Simple as that. Scoring only comes into play if no submission is achieved, then you would go into a 3 minute overtime with points awarded for taking position and such.
    As for the gogoplata, it's not my go-to move, but I can pull it off against a couple of the people I train with. I've been working on the triangle out of rubber guard, and that has been giving me a lot more success, tanks to the fact that i can have my opponent pinned to me the entire time I'm setting it up.
  • It is, however, the straight-up most efficient and powerful way to punch the crap out of somebody.
    It is also, unfortunately, straight-up the most efficient and powerful way to break your hands in a real fight.
    If you use correct technique, maintain decent wrist and hand strength, and hit a heavy bag regularly, your hands won't break. I'd blame most breaks to over-reliance on wraps, which are important for training but if you can't punch without them there's something wrong.
  • I don't know, man, I kinda doubt it. I don't doubt that you can reduce the incidence of broken hands, but I suspect it'll still be a big concern. If you have any data otherwise, I'd be curious to see, though. The frequency of broken hands in MMA, even with fight wraps and gloves, makes me think otherwise.
  • If you use correct technique, maintain decent wrist and hand strength, and hit a heavy bag regularly, your hands won't break.
    8 Secret Ways of the Iron Palm.
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