This forum is in permanent archive mode. Our new active community can be found here.

GeekNights 20100223 - Why Hardcore MMORPGs Are Not Popular

«134

Comments

  • So...Scott....you are very egocentric in your outlook on videogames. Like, you equate everyone's base level of experience in games in general to yours. If you understand mechanics, everyone does. If you don't, they are obviously pointlessly obfuscated and rudely complex. Really, Scott? You're doing this to give Rym something to play off of verbally. Ah, that's me projecting my mindset onto the show, though. Flawed from step 1.
  • So...Scott....you are very egocentric in your outlook on videogames.
    No!

    ^_~
  • edited February 2010
    I really enjoyed this episode, this is definitely more representative of the kinds of topics I like over reviews and the such. Just a couple of notes I had while listening:
    • It seems to me that one of the large reasons why these eastern European "Hardcore" MMOs fail is not really based upon the premise of the game in regards to various greifing/competition mechanics, but largely based upon proficiency of implementation. More often than not, these games just flat out suck in regards to the interface. They often obfuscate or over-design UI elements to the point where it is detrimental to the game. WoW is popular partly because the game is easy to control and makes it simple to execute what you intend to do in the world.
    • You guys begin to touch at what I believe is the true heart of the issue. Rather than wishing competition in their games, I believe what really drives old MMOs is the idea of emergent social cultures and behaviors, which in turns motivates said competition. It's a lot like DF, the stories that one can express or create using DF as a tool is what is truly important, not the game in itself. The simulated risks of modern MMOs remove the ability to create these stories in any meaningful way. EVE Online is one game which really succeeds in this aspect, however it severely suffers from point number one.
    Post edited by Andrew on
  • edited February 2010
    It seems to me that one of the large reasons why these eastern European "Hardcore" MMOs fail is not really based upon the premise of the game in regards to various greifing/competition mechanics, but largely based upon proficiency of implementation. More often than not, these games just flat out suck in regards to the interface. They often obfuscate or over-design UI elements to the point where it is detrimental to the game. WoW is popular partly because the game is easy to control and makes it simple to execute what you intend to do in the world.
    This is so true. I played demos of a bunch of MMOs shortly before moving to NYC. All of them had complete shit user interfaces. WoW's UI and controls put all the others to shame.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • I honestly thought this was going to be another bash WoW episode, however I found it very enjoyable to listen to. You make valid points about how MMOs don't really penalize you for dying in the game (PvE aspect), however I don't know if you guys are fully aware of all the PvP that is in WoW. If you are, you didn't mention it in the show.

    For those who enjoy PvP, most people particpate in 2v2, 3v3, and 5v5 Arena teams, as well as in several battlegrounds that range from 10v10, 15v15, or 40v40. For Arena teams, if you keep losing, the only way you get penalized is losing honor points which people can trade in for items.

    As for griefing, I have to disagree. There is still combat griefing in WoW. On a PvP server, if you are in a contested territory, you are automatically flagged for PvP. This gives open reign for anyone of the opposite faction to fight you.

    This flag will only be removed after you enter a faction-friendly environment for 5 minutes. So techncially, if a person of the opposite faction was in that area, they could still try to kill you.

    This is actually something that's been the popular thing for griefers. Most high-level characters hang out in the shared capitals for both Alliance and Horde. They have portals that go to the faction-specific capitals. So sometimes, people who are out and about in contested territories are flagged for PvP. They hearth to the main shared faction capital and go to a faction-specific capital within a matter of seconds.

    There is a short load screen time to go from one capital to the next. So basically what happens is, some griefer sneaks into the opposite faction capital and camps that portal spot and basically kills you right when you port, for those who are flagged. I find it to be amusing, because some people have longer load screen times, so they can hear battle going on and when the screen loads up, they are already dead.

    There are probably hundreds of videos out there from various WoW players who make griefing a day job. I can't link to the video, but there is one called Top Gun Rogue, iirc. Basically this rogue kills people in the air within a few seconds and people plummet to their doom. Most people think that if you mount up and fly up high, you are safe from dying. This rogue proves them otherwise.

    The closest thing they have to house competitions is a certain area called Wintergrasp that goes into contestation every 2 hours. This is where it's 40v40 and the Horde and Alliance battle to win the area. Whoever wins, that faction will have the ability to do a dungeon in Wintergrasp as well as it lets everyone of that faction collect certain items in normal dungeons they can trade in for various items. There are a few other bonuses, but it's not worth mentioning.

    I'm in no way saying WoW is hardcore as you guys are saying, I'm only sharing a few PvP things about Wow. I really don't PvP because I don't have the time for it. However, I find it enjoyable when I do because people try to kill me and end up failing hardcore.
  • the only way you get penalized is losing honor points which people can trade in for items.
    I know it's not relevant, I just wanted to mention that you don't lose honor. Honor is separate from arenas. In arenas, you fight against numerous teams, and you are rated based on your win/loss. At the end of the week, you earn arena points based on that rating. Those arena points can then be spent on new PvP gear.
  • I know it's not relevant, I just wanted to mention that you don't lose honor. Honor is separate from arenas. In arenas, you fight against numerous teams, and you are rated based on your win/loss. At the end of the week, you earn arena points based on that rating. Those arena points can then be spent on new PvP gear.
    Ah, that's right. Sorry about that. Goes to show how much I know about Arena. However, I have several in-game friends that are hardcore Arena players. I would watch the videos they would fraps and I am in awe sometimes of how much knowledge and skills it takes to be a decent in PvP.
    WoW's UI and controls put all the others to shame.
    WoW's UI has vastly improved since it's original release. They've pretty much copied all the user created UI that is out there, however most people still prefer the user created UI.
  • Ro; Your examples have a fundamental flaw, though. There is no real penalty other than time. You don't lose anything for dying. Aside from time or extenuating circumstances nothing is really lost. You don't even take durability damage from a pvp death. Your video example is an outlier. Far from the norm. Death is nothing but an annoyance in WoW aside from raids, certain pvp, and arena.

    Unless it's really changed since May 2008?
  • Actual conflict is decontextualized in WoW. The (for the) Horde (!) and the Alliance are superconstructs beyond anything the players can meaningfully affect, and the game prevents significant non-instantiated conflict outside of strongly defined boundaries and with minimal or zero risk. The only realm to take a conflict in WoW, truly, is into the meta.

    In an MMO that allows for contextual conflict, this meta is unnecessary, and the conflict itself generates emergent constructs of narrative that the players do not only affect, but effect in total.
  • edited February 2010
    They've pretty much copied all the user created UI that is out there, however most people still prefer the user created UI.
    The user-customizable UI is pretty much the best thing that could have happened to WoW. If every MMO did this, interface problems would disappear.

    I'm in no way saying WoW is hardcore as you guys are saying, I'm only sharing a few PvP things about Wow. I really don't PvP because I don't have the time for it. However, I find it enjoyable when I do because people try to kill me and end up failing hardcore.
    The arenas and the battlegrounds (except for AV) are pretty good implementations of MMO PvP. World PvP in WoW is a joke, though, and it always has been. It goes back to the lack of consequences; if there's no real penalty for dying, and no consequences for being a griefing douchenozzle, then the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory kicks in and guarantees that you will have fuckwads. The fact that WoW is so kid-proofed lends itself to griefing. The PvP servers are very safe compared to older MMO PvP servers; back when I played Dark Age of Camelot, a PvP was wide-open world PvP with only a handful of safe areas. Everywhere else left you in constant danger.

    You also have to account for the fact that most modern MMO's are not, in fact, massive. So much of WoW is instanced that truly massive gameplay is a rarity. Basically, the focus has shifted towards streamlining these games and making them available on demand, which in turn serves to remove the player from their attachment to the world. When you instance everything to make it immediately available, you get instant gratification and can then move on. You don't really have to invest as much in a modern MMO in order to get a return, but many of them reward you more for increased investment.

    Older hardcore MMO's were not convenient for the player in any capacity, and they were usually very arbitrary and unfair. This created a sort of dedication via sunk cost fallacy; players would continue playing because they wanted to extract the enjoyment and rewards from the game and didn't want to lose what they had already invested. It provided extremely delayed gratification. While this sucks in terms of user-friendliness, it also kept the players involved in the world and highly invested in the characters, which in turn enabled them to craft grand stories and tales using the system.

    I'm not saying that the shift in focus is necessarily a good or a bad thing; it depends on what you want to get from the game. There are people who treat WoW and similar games like a "hardcore" MMO, and I always thought that was sort of silly; it's not the sort of MMO that really necessitates deep and obsessive involvement. I suppose those people who get addicted to WoW are the types who played older hardcore MMO's and just want to replicate that experience in something modern and supported.

    EDIT: Star Wars Galaxies was the best implementation of MMORP I've ever seen. The world was entirely player created, and this necessitated a heavy investment in everything you did. Conflict would emerge naturally because of competition over limited resources. However, the G part was so amazingly and impossibly terrible that it completely ruined the experience. There was no point in playing or progressing. The most fun you could have in that game was sitting around in a cantina, chatting up your friends while a twi'lek danced for you.

    If the game had actually worked, I firmly believe that Galaxies would have been the perfect MMO experience.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • The only realm to take a conflict in WoW, truly, is into the meta.
    I think they're taking steps to remedy this. Right now, every two hours there's a battle for a keep, and the winner gets to do an exclusive raid for those two hours, as well as collect some shards (Stone Keeper's Shards). After those two hours, the current holders defend the keep from and invading force. I really hope we get to see more of this.
  • We really shouldn't call WoW an MMORPG in the first place. At best, it's a MPMG (Massively Parallel Multiplayer Game). It's the equivalent of if Steam made a persistent lobby for Fallout 3, where you interacted as your current Fallout 3 characters with other players of Fallout 3. Maybe they add in a Thunderdome where you can fight (no consequences) and an auction house for items. Let players run into eachother in the wastes if they turn that on.
  • Right now, every two hours there's a battle for a keep, and the winner gets to do an exclusive raid for those two hours, as well as collect some shards (Stone Keeper's Shards). After those two hours, the current holders defend the keep from and invading force.
    Unless they drastically change the world based on whether the Horde or Alliance is holding the majority of these keeps, it's still just a meaningless superconstruct.
  • We really shouldn't call WoW an MMORPG in the first place. At best, it's a MPMG (Massively Parallel Multiplayer Game). It's the equivalent of if Steam made a persistent lobby for Fallout 3, where you interacted as your current Fallout 3 characters with other players of Fallout 3. Maybe they add in a Thunderdome where you can fight (no consequences) and an auction house for items. Let players run into eachother in the wastes if they turn that on.
    I want this.
  • Ro; Your examples have a fundamental flaw, though. There is no real penalty other than time. You don't lose anything for dying. Aside from time or extenuating circumstances nothing is really lost. You don't even take durability damage from a pvp death. Your video example is an outlier. Far from the norm. Death is nothing but an annoyance in WoW aside from raids, certain pvp, and arena.
    I never said my examples were arguments against what Scrym said about no penalties with death. I agree with you, death is just an annoyance and something that only takes up more time.

    I was commenting on mostly on Scrym's comment on how people can only really grief via in-game mail/tells with penises. People still corpse camp/grief others all the time. It's nothing great, and it doesn't actually effect anything.

    WoW basically tailors to the masses and gives them what most people want. If people want to PvE without having to get griefed, they make certain areas where PvP isn't possible. For people who just want to PvP, they make the Arenas and Battlegrounds.

    But what Rym stated above is correct. I think it would be very interesting to see if Blizzard implemented contextual conflict. It will probably never happen, but it would be interesting to see.

    Also, I agree with TheWhaleShark. He's pretty much spot on as always.
    The user-customizable UI is pretty much the best thing that could have happened to WoW. If every MMO did this, interface problems would disappear.
    I agree. I really enjoy the fact that people out there do this stuff for free. My hat goes off to them.

    I also find the theorycrafters out there are insane. They really get into statistics, algorithms, and other various data to maximize their game play. I think it's cool for what they do, but man that takes some time and research.
  • edited February 2010
    I also find the theorycrafters out there are insane. They really get into statistics, algorithms, and other various data to maximize their game play. I think it's cool for what they do, but man that takes some time and research.
    This is me. It's the fun part of the game. Maxing the numbers out, perfecting rotations, watching swing timers, etc., that's what makes the game fun for me. Otherwise it's mindless button mashing.

    Edit: Yes, I know I'm just perfecting the button mashing, but to me, that's a game in itself, and it's an enjoyable one.
    Post edited by Vhdblood on
  • This is me. It's the fun part of the game. Maxing the numbers out, perfecting rotations, watching swing timers, etc., that's what makes the game fun for me. Otherwise it's mindless button mashing.

    Edit: Yes, I know I'm just perfecting the button mashing, but to me, that's a game in itself, and it's an enjoyable one.
    You should play EVE then.
  • edited February 2010
    We really shouldn't call WoW an MMORPG in the first place. At best, it's a MPMG (Massively Parallel Multiplayer Game). It's the equivalent of if Steam made a persistent lobby for Fallout 3, where you interacted as your current Fallout 3 characters with other players of Fallout 3. Maybe they add in a Thunderdome where you can fight (no consequences) and an auction house for items. Let players run into eachother in the wastes if they turn that on.
    Yeah, that's pretty much WoW. The thing is, that's what people want. Instant gratification with no consequences to failure. Blizzard has a fantastic business model. Geniuses.

    One thing I wonder about is the death of player housing. Perhaps it's an inevitable by-product of increasing detachment from the world of MMO's generated by their increasingly streamlined and user-friendly nature, but I've always wondered if maybe the houses died first and attachment followed suit. If you start adding a money sink that really ties the players to the world, you might start creating the environment where they feel like they can truly affect the world. It probably wouldn't take much to generate that feeling.

    Again, someone really needs to make a game whose economy is like Star Wars Galaxies, except they also need to make sure the game doesn't blow goats. Have everything in the game come from another player and not from some impartial server, and you'll get people invested in your game.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • You should play EVE then.
    Tried it. I have to wait for skills. I have to physically wait. I want to be able to grind for my stuff to catch up, because otherwise for a month or three I'm just waiting for skills and mindlessly mining.
  • This is me. It's the fun part of the game. Maxing the numbers out, perfecting rotations, watching swing timers, etc., that's what makes the game fun for me. Otherwise it's mindless button mashing.

    Edit: Yes, I know I'm just perfecting the button mashing, but to me, that's a game in itself, and it's an enjoyable one.
    I think that's cool. I'm the same way, but not as extreme. Being a resto shaman is very fun and trying to figure out the best healing rotations is a side hobby.

    Do you ever check out the theorycrafting from Elitist Jerks? I mostly refer to them when I want to know about a class.
  • A post apocalyptic, "Lord of the flies", big brother state MMO sounds like a good idea, also a nice social experiment, death with repercussions means decisions actually matter, use your actual wits in the game through voice chat to barter with other players, band up with your friends and take over a part of the map, charge a toll, fight the army when they try to evict you, etc. It's a shame it won't happen.
  • Paranoia the MMO?
  • Paranoia the MMO?
    Brilliant! BRILLIANT!
  • A post apocalyptic, "Lord of the flies", big brother state MMO sounds like a good idea, also a nice social experiment, death with repercussions means decisions actually matter, use your actual wits in the game through voice chat to barter with other players, band up with your friends and take over a part of the map, charge a toll, fight the army when they try to evict you, etc. It's a shame it won't happen.
    Actually the original idea was for more of a Terminator 2 post-judgement day scenario. Basically everyone is Solid Snake with no equipment, you get dumped in the world, and off you go.
  • Paranoia the MMO?
    Brilliant! BRILLIANT!
    SHIT
  • SHIT
    Players make the adversarial positions! If you make it to ultraviolet in 6 lives, YOU'RE the assholes at the top (until you die). The only superconstruct is the computer itself.

    We need to do a show on this.
  • edited February 2010
    As long as a company is willing to accept that their game will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever be as successful as WoW, nor will it ever come close, a hardcore MMO game can do just fine.

    Basically, you can't make anything that even tries to do anything at all the way WoW does it. WoW is established and polished; nobody wants to wait for a new game to hash out its bugs.

    Paranoia the MMO sounds very interesting. What would you do? Everyone start inside, work their way to the outside, build a civilization out there, and attempt to destroy the computer? Open-world player-derived stuff like that is perfect, but the game needs to have a point, and the mechanics need to be tight.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • As long as a company is willing to accept that their game will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever be as successful as WoW, nor will it ever come close, a hardcore MMO game can do just fine.
    The problem right now is that the economics don't pan out. With FPSes and such, players can run their own servers. With current technology, the only way we can do an MMO is to have a bunch of servers all run by the game publisher/developer. Therefore, any game with MMO architecture that does not have significant cash coming in every month can't sustain itself. Even if you sell a million copies, you need the monthly subscription numbers to stay above a certain level, otherwise you are no longer profitable.
    Paranoia the MMO sounds very interesting. What would you do? Everyone start inside, work their way to the outside, build a civilization out there, and attempt to destroy the computer?
    You would spawn red. Then you would receive instructions from the computer. The rest would be up to you.
  • What would you do?
    The same thing you do in real Paranoia. Grief everybody, try not to die, and get through the ranks as far as you can before dying six times. The point is to be in charge and grief the lower colors. The point is to kill the assholes at the top griefing you.
  • The same thing you do in real Paranoia. Grief everybody, try not to die, and get through the ranks as far as you can before dying six times. The point is to be in charge and grief the lower colors. The point is to kill the assholes at the top griefing you.
    50 cents for each six-pack.
Sign In or Register to comment.