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Where Have All The Hackers Gone?

edited April 2010 in Technology
We had this discussion before in the iPad thread, but it was somewhat off topic. I think this blog post is a good jumping off point to have the discussion more in general.

Where have all the hackers gone?

In case you are lazy, here's a summary of the points made in the article. There's the school district where all the computers were photographing the students with the web cams. None of the many students hacked these computers or figured it out because the computers were locked down, and punishment from the school district from tinkering with the computers was severe.

Before WWII there was a generation of Americans who grew up tinkering with internal combustion engines. That large supply of mechanics gave the US a large advantage in the upcoming war. Recently DARPA has put out a paper saying that US is in big trouble because we are in very short supply of people like myself who are experts in technology and security. There is a tremendous talent shortage. That means we're in big trouble in the future.

The doom and gloom of having all these closed systems is a lot more real, even now, than you people seem to think.
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Comments

  • I'm over here, hacking my website. Oh, and when I'm at home I'm hacking my apartment.
  • If provoked, I might hack someone to bits, if that counts.
  • LOL. The talent shortage means that there is at least one more industry that can thrive in this economy. Don't look at it as a doom and gloom scenario, look at it as a field that will likely be flooded if anyone puts the word out that such a shortage exists.
  • Don't look at it as a doom and gloom scenario, look at it as a field that will likely be flooded if anyone puts the word out that such a shortage exists.
    Not quite. We're interviewing for several positions at my place of business, and there is no shortage of people in the field looking for work. In fact, there is a glut. The problem is that none of these people are any good.

    The article is hinting that the ratio of good people is lower now.
    The US Air Force is currently holding Cyber Defense competitions at the high school level, nationwide. The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) recently released a paper stating that the United States will be “hampered” by its projected dearth of expertise in Internet technologies and information security: “we are steadily losing the engineering talent to project these systems .”
    As a professional in the industry, I have to agree. There are good people out there, but they're rare and difficult to find. Despite this, there is a huge proliferation of resumes that look good (degree from tech school, meaningful certifications) but where the people behind them have no hacker spirit or fundamental understanding of technology.

    But, it's not just me saying this. The Air Force has the same problem, according to this article ^_~
  • Despite this, there is a huge proliferation of resumes that look good (degree from tech school, meaningful certifications) but where the people behind them have no hacker spirit or fundamental understanding of technology.
    OH tell me about it. Half the people in one of my CIT classes just have none of that hacker spirit whatsoever. Guess who isn't doing so well in the class?
  • edited April 2010
    flooded if anyone puts the word out that such a shortage exists.
    It's an industry already mostly filled with people who have no idea what they are doing. Money would give people the incentive to learn enough to get a job, but most of those people would likely be absolutely useless. They would just make more work for the rest of us. Money can not create talent.

    And if DARPA is getting involved, it's not just a problem of economics, but defense. If Russia and China raise entire generations of computer wizards, and we raise a generation of iKids, that is an extremely serious threat in an age when the every day workings of our society are completely dependent on technology. We will be absolutely incapable of defending ourselves from external cyber-threats if we do not have enough people who are truly skilled and knowledgeable.

    When there's a serious military threat, it's not hard to draft people and train them to fight. It's a lot harder to draft and train people to be hackers. It's basically impossible.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • RymRym
    edited April 2010
    It's a lot harder to draft and train people to be hackers. It's basically impossible.
    Nevermind the fact that hackers are in such high demand that the military can't afford them. The private sector simply outcompetes on salary/benefits, and doesn't make them cut their hair.

    The article is by no means gold, but I'm curious to see how the military actually responds to this perceived problem. If the system isn't making enough hackers anymore, how do you fix that?
    Post edited by Rym on
  • edited April 2010
    So, tons of applicants, but only a few are actually good? Yeah, that's EVERY industry. How many good scientists do you think there are?

    I think you're running into the problem of the maturation of the industry. Yours is a relatively recent field, so it has yet to encounter the issues related to having a sea of shitty applicants. The sciences have been dealing with this issue forever; that's why we're assholes.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • So, tons of applicants, but only a few are actually good? Yeah, that's EVERY industry. How many good scientists do you think there are?
    But bad enough that the military thinks it's a problem? They're hinting that other parts of the world are not having this same problem.
    Yours is a relatively recent field, so it has yet to encounter the issues related to having a sea of shitty applicants.
    You forget the tech boom/bust from last decade. It's always been a sea of shitty applicants. What's concerning is the claim that simultaneous to the glut of idiots is a new dearth of the diamonds in the rough. It appears that, in high schools right now, there are fewer hackers.
  • The miltary's concern is noteworthy, but I wouldn't say it's strictly limited to the tech field. There are fewer scientists in high school too. The current generation is pretty dumb overall. It's an even bigger issue than any one field would make it out to be.

    I've dealt with many science grad students. How many do you think are actually worth my time?

    I don't buy that the raw talent is diminished. It's more that there's so much rough these days, the diamonds aren't worth mining.
  • It is true, there is also a dearth of good scientists. The thing is, we don't need as many scientists as technologists. Yes, we need a lot of scientists, and a lot more than we have. We are falling behind the rest of the world in that department as well.

    But for technology, we need technology people everywhere. Even the grocery store, the doctor's office, etc. need tech people. Right now they contract out to someone who maybe shows up later in the week. They can't fix everything, so they make a return visit. Then they do a shitty job and come back again and again. Meanwhile all the employees and customers have a really shitty time of it. If anything serious happened, like an actual attack, there would be basically no defense or recovery.

    If they called in one tech person of any caliber, their entire jobs would be revolutionized, even with existing free technology. Most clerical employees would be made redundant by a relational database with a proper front end. Those who remained would have an amazing technological experience. Breakages would be rare, limited only to hardware faults. No data would ever be lost. However, this would cost a fortune because no person of caliber will do it for less.

    The shortage of scientists is holding us back, for certain. The lack of technology people is holding us back orders of magnitude more. We need many millions of hackers, and we need them now. We have some thousands.
  • I agree with the assessment that there isn't really a shortage of talent. The talent is just not in the US anymore. Fact of the matter is that we've turned into a consumer society, and by-in-large consumer products just work. They didn't have the shortcomings of products decades ago. They don't need to be hacked in the same way. Other places like India and China, however, are going through the same growing pains we had decades ago, so now they have all the need for hackers. I don't think we're likely to see any kind of resurgence in the US until the situation does actually become dire.
  • I don't think we're likely to see any kind of resurgence in the US until the situation does actually become dire.
    Yeah, but maybe for once we could be proactive? Please?
  • We need our public education to step up and start removing some of that rough. Lone talented people are insufficient. I can turn almost anyone into a good scientist, but it takes 25% of my working time, and I already have a 120% time commitment.

    So what do we do about this?
  • So what do we do about this?
    Technology should be the fifth subject in school. Mandatory every grade K-12. Everyone should learn computing from electrons up.
  • Yeah, but maybe for once we could be proactive? Please?
    We can't become proactive to save kids from curable diseases.
  • edited April 2010
    I don't think we're likely to see any kind of resurgence in the US until the situation does actually become dire.
    Yeah, but maybe for once we could be proactive? Please?
    That would be nice. The grade schools would have to be fixed though, and I'm not going to rely on the Department of Education or the teacher's unions to do that.
    So what do we do about this?
    I know this won't be popular, but abolishing the two above organizations would be a good step in the right direction.
    Post edited by theknoxinator on
  • No, the DOED is your friend. Get them on the same page and utilize their strength. Teacher's unions, I'm not as sure.
  • No, the DOED is your friend.
    *pause for copious amounts of laughter and rolling on floor*

    If you can convince me that the DOEd has done anything aside from drive our education system into the ground, then you might have a good argument. Be warned that you are fighting against all the things I have learned from people who have been trying to improve education in this country for decades. Here's a hint: they don't like the DOEd.
  • So what do we do about this?
    Technology should be the fifth subject in school. Mandatory every grade K-12. Everyone should learn computing from electrons up.
    Apparently math needs some improvement as you obviously can't count.
    1- Math
    2 - English
    3 - History/Social Studies
    4 - Science
    5 - Art
    6 - Music
    7 - Physical Education
    8 - Health Class
    9 - Home Economics
    10 - Actual Economics
    11 - Shop/Technology (including Drawing and Design for Production and Architecture)
    12 - Computer Utilization and Keyboarding
    and so on...
    This is just a list of subjects and classes that I took in high school.
  • No, the DOED is your friend.
    *pause for copious amounts of laughter and rolling on floor*

    If you can convince me that the DOEd has done anything aside from drive our education system into the ground, then you might have a good argument. Be warned that you are fighting against all the things I have learned from people who have been trying to improve education in this country for decades. Here's a hint: they don't like the DOEd.
    So you want no government involvement in education? You can certainly dislike DOED polices and work to change them, but abolishing it altogether is ludicrous.
  • This is just a list of subjects and classes that I took in high school.
    Yes, I took many different classes as well. However, in most schools there are four basic subjects, Math, Science, English, and Social Studies. No matter what other classes you are taking you are always in some incarnation of each of those four. They make up the core of the education, the primary subjects. Computer classes are available in many, if not most, schools, but they are not core subjects. By making them a core subject, every student will have a computer class every school day, every year.
  • edited April 2010
    This problem is way larger than just tech related stuff though too. Hackers are in the highest demand in EVERY trade right now, at least for all the parts that need conscious thought. Seth Godin's book 'Tribes' was rather brilliant at addressing this issue in my opinion.

    They system in place, while it once worked, needs to be reformed. It's holding the US back and destroying chances for success in the future. At a glance the 'golden path to success' has been taught to us as follows 1) go through school 2)get a degree 3)find a job for someone 4) do as little as possible with the highest wages until step 4) retire. Not that everyone wants to get a cushy job and do nothing, but even the most capable people are usually wasted doing stupid pointless stuff that doesn't deal with any real problems.

    Also the school system is failing to prepare people for their actual jobs. Most of it being esoteric bullshit that produces uniformly overly cocky, under experienced punks who have to be trained properly by their future employers. I back these statements up with two of my current bosses, one is an electrical engineer who hired me over an engineering grad student because I wasn't afraid to just start poking at all the stuff in the office and asking a ton of questions. Later she told me that she would NEVER willingly hire a 'fresh out of school' engineer because they 'think they are hot shit when all they have are bad habits and misconceptions'. She's the lead engineer/designer for Camden door controls, one of the leading door security system companies in North America.

    My other boss is a corporate magician and entrepreneur. He's an excellent entertainer and thinks he's a great marketer. Too bad he isn't though, but I guess that's why I'm working for him. I understand what to do to have a successful marketing campaign, I know how to build a community and strong customer relations, but everything I do he keeps sabotaging. I write a long letter for a specific purpose and he puts it up as a random page on his website. I fix the website and he hacks it apart and puts all the old crap into the new format. It's an exercise in frustration and one of the major reasons I don't do much work for him anymore.

    I'm personally beginning to believe more and more in the apprenticing style of education. Yeah, we need to learn how to do math and reading and all that, but I think the education system in general is a train wreck. In my opinion elementary and middle school should still teach the same stuff, but high school should be more about getting people into places where they can see what a job is really like. Apprentice or intern in other words, have them really look at what's out there (Rym's comments about how HS councilors don't tell you that you can be a race car driver comes to mind). The current system spends most of it's time punishing us for asking questions or really doing anything but 'drone thinking' and we're starting to see the effects of it.

    If more people got out of the classroom and into a position where they could actually learn real world skills then I think everyone would be better off for it. Supplementary skill building classes could still be taught as a way to practice and develop them further, but maybe would only be attended a couple times a week. As it is there is a gigantic disconnect between school and 'the real world' and it's really screwing things up. With education deviating so far from industries graduating students are horribly under equipped to deal with the transition.

    /rant (I get kind of passionate about this, my grandfather was a teacher and we talk about this stuff on occasion)
    Post edited by Sova on
  • I'm personally beginning to believe more and more in the apprenticing style of education.
    Apprenticeship does work, but has many problems. The biggest problem is that there are far more apprentices than masters. If a master takes on multiple apprentices, which one becomes the new master? Let's say those who don't take over for the previous master start their own businesses, well and good. But how many apprentices can a single master handle while also continuing to get their own job done?

    Also, the world is constantly changing. With apprenticeship, you maintain roughly the same percentage of people working in the same fields. We are in a period of rapid change. We were in a world with almost no technologists, and need many many technologists. With apprenticeship, we simply can't educate the quantity of people that we need. Schools allow for mass education that apprenticeship does not.
  • If a master takes on multiple apprentices, which one becomes the new master?
    Duh, fight to the death......
  • Apprenticeship does work, but has many problems. The biggest problem is that there are far more apprentices than masters. If a master takes on multiple apprentices, which one becomes the new master? Let's say those who don't take over for the previous master start their own businesses, well and good. But how many apprentices can a single master handle while also continuing to get their own job done?
    I do not think that works the way you think it works.
  • So you want no government involvement in education? You can certainly dislike DOED polices and work to change them, but abolishing it altogether is ludicrous.
    It's not ludicrous. Getting rid of the DOEd doesn't remove government from education. It would just make it go back to the way it used to be, where states handled their own schools. Most people tend to forget that the DOEd has only been around for less than 50 years. I don't know, somehow we managed to educate our people for a good 180 years before the government decided to nationalize the system. I don't disagree that there are some things the DOEd could do to make education actually better, but their track record has shown they like to do the opposite.
  • Also the school system is failing to prepare people for their actual jobs.
    Perhaps I should tell my experience with majoring in computer science. When I started high school, at ninth grade, I told the counselor (with whom I discussed my high school course schedules) from the get go that I wanted to go into computer science in college. She told me she thought it was a bad idea, because it was too logical, and that would be too hard for me (I wanted to deck her then and there, but the principal was right next door). I told her I wanted to do it regardless, and she had me go into various math courses, which I took. I also planned to take a course in programming in the tenth grade. When I was signed up and ready, I was moved into a different math course than I needed, but the school would not allow me to change it. They also, when the time came for me to take the class, canceled the programming course because "it was too expensive." When I was moved to a different counselor, I finally was able to get to pre-cal, but not in time for me to take calculus.

    To make a long story short, when I applied for my major, the CS advisor told me that my high school had not adequately prepared me, despite my plans being clearly known to the school, and that they recommended I take pre-cal again. I had breezed through it in high school, but that was nothing. I failed it in college. Apparently, the pre-cal at high school was substandard. Eventually, despite the CS department doing everything they could to help me, and being patient as a retook Programming I twice, I finally had to leave and change my major. Not that I find graphic design boring, but I really wanted to program.

    The problem, I've heard from some of my former high school teachers, is that the counselors (except for the new one I got, who was new to the school) were not fond of computer education, and that they pushed to remove it from the curriculum. Some people just don't like dealing with it, because "it doesn't seem all that important."
  • edited April 2010
    Thanks for posting that story Thebes, I think it is a great example of the kind of thing we are talking about.

    At RIT, all of the great CS students were people who had already been programming well before showing up at RIT. The CS department told people that you could take CS with no prior experience, but you could always tell who those people were. They were always struggling with basics, and had to spend way more time than everyone else on everything. They usually transferred to a different major or school.

    In order to have the computer talent that the world needs, you have to start fucking early. I started with LOGO on the Apple ][ in Kindergarten. Ron Gilbert and Ken Levine spoke at their PAX keynotes about how they started programming as children on the Commodore 64 and other machines of that time period. I doubt anyone who will find a single great programmer who did not have an early start.

    My suggestion to people who are about to go to college, and do not already know how to program, is to forget computer science. If you think you want to do it, but you haven't done it already, then you are basing that desire to program on what you imagine programming to be like, and not what it is actually like. If you're reading this now, it means you have a computer. If you want to program, and you haven't before, then start now. It doesn't matter what kind you do, just do something. Very very few of us programmers had any real programming education before college, and Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and friends all dropped out of college. It's still primarily a self-taught discipline, so start self teaching.

    And if you have children, I suggest that as soon as they are literate, you get them a computer that is hackable that they will have a desire to hack. An Arduino with lots of sensors and motors and such is a good start. They will learn some electronics, and they can integrate it with all their toys.
    Post edited by Apreche on
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