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Spiritual Experiences and Atheism
A looong essay I just posted on my blog, but think might make for interesting discussion here. I have to split it into two parts though, because there's a character limit on the forum software.
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Here's a blog post I've wanted to write for a long time, the first in the series of three. This post will be about spiritual experiences, the second will be about modern Christians and their use and knowledge of the bible, and the third post will be about the Bible as history.
Preamble:
Last year I went to TAMLondon, a conference on science and skepticism, with a distinct bend towards their portrayal and communication in the media. The scientists who spoke were awesome, so were the doctors, and the skeptics, and the journalists too. Along with all that was a whole load of great entertainment by some really good performers.
All of the above are experts in their field. Brian Cox is a CERN physicist and a fellow of the Royal Society, plus a TV and radio presenter for the BBC. As the opening speaker, it doesn't get much better for a science geek like me. Adam Savage of Myth Busters? Great! The Bad Astronomer? Cool! Tim Minchin doing a short set? Again, no complaints. Ben Goldacre, Simon Singh, Jon Ronson… it's a great lineup. All top experts in their fields.
However, the thing I found quite strange was how many of the speakers talked about atheism and religious matters. And all of them, without exception, presented their views on the matter in a sneering way. Some, like Tim Minchin, did it for comedy effect, but in others that sneering and condescending tone was quite harsh.
At one point during a TAMLondon presentation the speaker said something like "And people who believe this are like stupid sheep… like they have a mental illness." The audience laughed and applauded.
I just sat there, feeling quite uncomfortable.
And what's worse is that all of them, without exception, seemed to have a very, very shallow view on Christianity, belief, faith, and spirituality. Shallow view? Maybe not the right way to put it.
What I mean is that the way they spoke about such matters betrays a complete lack of understanding on what it means to be Christian, and why people believe what they believe, and why they adhere to the notion of a real God.
To these New Atheists (I guess I can use that as a kind of collective noun), the only question that matters is "Is this claim true?"
If yes, then good. But if not, and such is the case with most religious claims, then that claim is WORTHLESS and anyone who believes said claim is STUPID, or at least NOT AS CLEVER AS US, and need to be told THEY ARE WRONG.
I'm using caps here to demonstrate the vibe I get from these people. It isn't pleasant.
And worse than that, many had ideas on how to deconvert people from religion which relied almost exclusively on saying "You are wrong to believe in God, and here's why."
The spiritual experience.
The individual claims of Christians and other theists, and if they are true or not, simply don't matter. They are very important to those who hold them, but which particular belief they might hold isn't important. It isn't particularly important to the Christian, and it shouldn't be important to the atheist who wants people to become more rational.
Don't get me wrong; I am an atheist. But before I became an atheist I was a Christian. One of the reasons I was a Christian is the most obvious; I was brought up in a Christian home.
The second reason, the reason I stayed a Christian, is because to me, just like to many other Christians I know, I had spiritual experiences. These were real experiences, and even to this day they are some of the most profound experiences in my 30 year existence.
So let me share some, and later I'll get back to why particular beliefs, and if they are true or not, isn't what's important to many religious people.
Example number 1:
I remember, aged about 8, deciding to really become a Christian myself, rather than just assuming I was one. I said the sinner's prayer. Even at such a young age, this was a big deal to me. Afterward I felt different, as though I'd taken a step closer to God, and that God was closer to me.
The reality: It was the first time I'd ever made a big decision about anything. Really. That young, nothing you do or think really matters. Not really. This decision was about my eternal soul. That's a BIG thing. It wasn't that God had actually accepted me, and Jesus hadn't come into my heart. I'd just grown up a bit, and saw the world in a slightly different way.
If I lived in a developing country, and realized I had to go out to work aged 8 to make sure my little sister didn't starve, I'd go through a similar transformation. Thankfully I lived in England, and I never really had to grow up in that way.
Example number 2:
Aged 12, I had a near death experience. I got stuck underwater, and couldn't reach the surface. To cut a short story even shorter, I gave up trying to save myself. At that point I had a huge realization: I was going to die, but I had no problem with that, because I knew I was going to heaven.
There were no shining lights or voices from the sky. Just a complete peace, a strange sense of happiness, and complete faith in myself and what I believed.
Needless to say, it was that sense of calm that made me stop panicking, take stock of how I was actually stuck underwater, and work my way to the surface. I'd probably only been underwater a few seconds, but my life was different after that it was before.
The reality: I was, of course, completely wrong. If I died, I'd have just spoiled everything for all the Boy Scouts on their trip to Wales.
However, and this is the key, I was convinced that what I believed was right. I didn't even think of it as something that I believed, it was more powerful than that. It just was. I was a Christian, I was going to die: I'm going to heaven. Case closed.
Twelve years later a friend of mine said "These Christians all know it is bullshit. If you put a gun to their head and said 'I'll kill you if you say you really believe it' all of them would deny God."
I told him the above story, to explain how wrong he was. To many Christians, belief doesn't come into it. I was only 12 years old, there was nothing rational about my position on Jesus and heaven. It just was. To the point I was happy to die, knowing how right I was.
Example number 3:
The first time I strongly experienced the Holy Spirit. I can't remember how old I was, maybe 13 or so. I went forward during Jesus-Camp-like meeting, and preachers and other people prayed for me. It was really great! Fantastic! Loads of people, standing in a circle, all laying hands your head and shoulders, praying for God to bless you. Who wouldn't feel something?
I fell over, and was lowered to the floor gently, and people stayed to pray for me until I got up maybe half an hour later.
I had many similar experiences over many years. It's called being slain in the spirit, among other things.
Once I fell backwards, and nobody caught me. I slammed into the ground, as you would expect. I just bounced a bit, but didn't hurt myself. I hardly even noticed I had fallen over.
If it wasn't for the Holy Spirit looking out for me, how could I have fallen over like that and not hurt myself?
The reality: I had never been to a big rock concert. I had never been part of a tribal ritual. I had never been to a hypnotist. There is all kind of psychology going on at a revival meeting, with loads of suggestion of what to do in the situation, what is expected, what is safe, what isn't, how long it should take before you fall over, how long to stay on the floor afterwards.
The connectedness you feel at a big concert, of being part of something bigger than yourself, is familiar to many people, but just wasn't something I knew. Not back then.
Back then, the church had a monopoly on all group-based emotional experience. It did in my life, anyway.
Any time I felt something profound, it was in the realms of a Christian church service of some type. So, of course, I presumed such feelings came from God.
Now I have had all kinds of "Peak Experiences".
Getting a standing ovation at the end of a show. Performing a difficult juggling routine dropless. Breaking a world record. Telling a joke and having 3,000 people laugh. Various sexual encounters. Getting into a fight. Catching a big wave while surfing. Finishing the last page of a novel.
My list can go on and on. I'm a "Peak Experience" kinda guy.
And since 2001, I've found that I don't associate any with God. Before then, especially before about 1996 or 1997, every big emotional experience was dominated by my Christian surroundings.
Example number 4:
I used to help lead worship in church. I played keyboard and guitar and sang in the band, and helped other people have spiritual experiences. I felt God and the Holy Spirit guiding me and the music I played. And when I followed what God was wanting me to do, it got results. People would start speaking in tongues and falling over.
Especially when I played the keyboard.
The reality: I slowly became a good musician. At least passable. I mean, my university degree is in music production...
What I thought was God using me and my musicianship was really just the power of music itself. But again, the church and my Christian upbringing dominated my musical knowledge and experiences. I thought that people only felt a certain way when certain music is played because of God moving through the music, when, in fact, human response to music is near universal. Music is just what us humans respond to best.
---
Here's a blog post I've wanted to write for a long time, the first in the series of three. This post will be about spiritual experiences, the second will be about modern Christians and their use and knowledge of the bible, and the third post will be about the Bible as history.
Preamble:
Last year I went to TAMLondon, a conference on science and skepticism, with a distinct bend towards their portrayal and communication in the media. The scientists who spoke were awesome, so were the doctors, and the skeptics, and the journalists too. Along with all that was a whole load of great entertainment by some really good performers.
All of the above are experts in their field. Brian Cox is a CERN physicist and a fellow of the Royal Society, plus a TV and radio presenter for the BBC. As the opening speaker, it doesn't get much better for a science geek like me. Adam Savage of Myth Busters? Great! The Bad Astronomer? Cool! Tim Minchin doing a short set? Again, no complaints. Ben Goldacre, Simon Singh, Jon Ronson… it's a great lineup. All top experts in their fields.
However, the thing I found quite strange was how many of the speakers talked about atheism and religious matters. And all of them, without exception, presented their views on the matter in a sneering way. Some, like Tim Minchin, did it for comedy effect, but in others that sneering and condescending tone was quite harsh.
At one point during a TAMLondon presentation the speaker said something like "And people who believe this are like stupid sheep… like they have a mental illness." The audience laughed and applauded.
I just sat there, feeling quite uncomfortable.
And what's worse is that all of them, without exception, seemed to have a very, very shallow view on Christianity, belief, faith, and spirituality. Shallow view? Maybe not the right way to put it.
What I mean is that the way they spoke about such matters betrays a complete lack of understanding on what it means to be Christian, and why people believe what they believe, and why they adhere to the notion of a real God.
To these New Atheists (I guess I can use that as a kind of collective noun), the only question that matters is "Is this claim true?"
If yes, then good. But if not, and such is the case with most religious claims, then that claim is WORTHLESS and anyone who believes said claim is STUPID, or at least NOT AS CLEVER AS US, and need to be told THEY ARE WRONG.
I'm using caps here to demonstrate the vibe I get from these people. It isn't pleasant.
And worse than that, many had ideas on how to deconvert people from religion which relied almost exclusively on saying "You are wrong to believe in God, and here's why."
The spiritual experience.
The individual claims of Christians and other theists, and if they are true or not, simply don't matter. They are very important to those who hold them, but which particular belief they might hold isn't important. It isn't particularly important to the Christian, and it shouldn't be important to the atheist who wants people to become more rational.
Don't get me wrong; I am an atheist. But before I became an atheist I was a Christian. One of the reasons I was a Christian is the most obvious; I was brought up in a Christian home.
The second reason, the reason I stayed a Christian, is because to me, just like to many other Christians I know, I had spiritual experiences. These were real experiences, and even to this day they are some of the most profound experiences in my 30 year existence.
So let me share some, and later I'll get back to why particular beliefs, and if they are true or not, isn't what's important to many religious people.
Example number 1:
I remember, aged about 8, deciding to really become a Christian myself, rather than just assuming I was one. I said the sinner's prayer. Even at such a young age, this was a big deal to me. Afterward I felt different, as though I'd taken a step closer to God, and that God was closer to me.
The reality: It was the first time I'd ever made a big decision about anything. Really. That young, nothing you do or think really matters. Not really. This decision was about my eternal soul. That's a BIG thing. It wasn't that God had actually accepted me, and Jesus hadn't come into my heart. I'd just grown up a bit, and saw the world in a slightly different way.
If I lived in a developing country, and realized I had to go out to work aged 8 to make sure my little sister didn't starve, I'd go through a similar transformation. Thankfully I lived in England, and I never really had to grow up in that way.
Example number 2:
Aged 12, I had a near death experience. I got stuck underwater, and couldn't reach the surface. To cut a short story even shorter, I gave up trying to save myself. At that point I had a huge realization: I was going to die, but I had no problem with that, because I knew I was going to heaven.
There were no shining lights or voices from the sky. Just a complete peace, a strange sense of happiness, and complete faith in myself and what I believed.
Needless to say, it was that sense of calm that made me stop panicking, take stock of how I was actually stuck underwater, and work my way to the surface. I'd probably only been underwater a few seconds, but my life was different after that it was before.
The reality: I was, of course, completely wrong. If I died, I'd have just spoiled everything for all the Boy Scouts on their trip to Wales.
However, and this is the key, I was convinced that what I believed was right. I didn't even think of it as something that I believed, it was more powerful than that. It just was. I was a Christian, I was going to die: I'm going to heaven. Case closed.
Twelve years later a friend of mine said "These Christians all know it is bullshit. If you put a gun to their head and said 'I'll kill you if you say you really believe it' all of them would deny God."
I told him the above story, to explain how wrong he was. To many Christians, belief doesn't come into it. I was only 12 years old, there was nothing rational about my position on Jesus and heaven. It just was. To the point I was happy to die, knowing how right I was.
Example number 3:
The first time I strongly experienced the Holy Spirit. I can't remember how old I was, maybe 13 or so. I went forward during Jesus-Camp-like meeting, and preachers and other people prayed for me. It was really great! Fantastic! Loads of people, standing in a circle, all laying hands your head and shoulders, praying for God to bless you. Who wouldn't feel something?
I fell over, and was lowered to the floor gently, and people stayed to pray for me until I got up maybe half an hour later.
I had many similar experiences over many years. It's called being slain in the spirit, among other things.
Once I fell backwards, and nobody caught me. I slammed into the ground, as you would expect. I just bounced a bit, but didn't hurt myself. I hardly even noticed I had fallen over.
If it wasn't for the Holy Spirit looking out for me, how could I have fallen over like that and not hurt myself?
The reality: I had never been to a big rock concert. I had never been part of a tribal ritual. I had never been to a hypnotist. There is all kind of psychology going on at a revival meeting, with loads of suggestion of what to do in the situation, what is expected, what is safe, what isn't, how long it should take before you fall over, how long to stay on the floor afterwards.
The connectedness you feel at a big concert, of being part of something bigger than yourself, is familiar to many people, but just wasn't something I knew. Not back then.
Back then, the church had a monopoly on all group-based emotional experience. It did in my life, anyway.
Any time I felt something profound, it was in the realms of a Christian church service of some type. So, of course, I presumed such feelings came from God.
Now I have had all kinds of "Peak Experiences".
Getting a standing ovation at the end of a show. Performing a difficult juggling routine dropless. Breaking a world record. Telling a joke and having 3,000 people laugh. Various sexual encounters. Getting into a fight. Catching a big wave while surfing. Finishing the last page of a novel.
My list can go on and on. I'm a "Peak Experience" kinda guy.
And since 2001, I've found that I don't associate any with God. Before then, especially before about 1996 or 1997, every big emotional experience was dominated by my Christian surroundings.
Example number 4:
I used to help lead worship in church. I played keyboard and guitar and sang in the band, and helped other people have spiritual experiences. I felt God and the Holy Spirit guiding me and the music I played. And when I followed what God was wanting me to do, it got results. People would start speaking in tongues and falling over.
Especially when I played the keyboard.
The reality: I slowly became a good musician. At least passable. I mean, my university degree is in music production...
What I thought was God using me and my musicianship was really just the power of music itself. But again, the church and my Christian upbringing dominated my musical knowledge and experiences. I thought that people only felt a certain way when certain music is played because of God moving through the music, when, in fact, human response to music is near universal. Music is just what us humans respond to best.
Comments
In every case I experienced something profound, but didn't know these experiences were something that EVERYONE can feel, regardless of faith in God.
And, importantly, these experiences fulfilled a need. Many needs. Going back to Maslow; the whole top half of the pyramid, even the ones way down from the peak.
The Rational Approach
Next question: how many discussions or conversations or arguments did I have with atheists that helped me shed my childhood faith?
If you think the answer is higher than zero… buzz! Wrong.
The answer is zero. None at all.
I had a very complex view on christian theology, and remember (with fondness) taking part in and leading bible studies about salvation (Romans 6 and 7 was a favorite topic of discussion).
However, the basis of my faith wasn't the minutia of theology, nor of the nature of God, nor of the actual truth of the claims of God. What I had were the real experiences.
One early step to my deconversion from Christianity was the erosion of the lower levels on that Hierarchy of Need. There was a not entirely peaceful breakup of my Christian fellowship, which sort of spasmed through quasi-cult like stages before falling apart. A fellowship that is no longer a fellowship doesn't really fulfill that fellowship need. I'm not going to get into this point more here, but for completeness I had to state it.
The more important step is having those peak experiences elsewhere, other than in church. I mentioned some examples above, but here are some specifics particular to my deconversion.
Example number 1:
1998 to 1999, I played in a band. Jamming and performing with a group of like-minded musicians is a great experience. And it was a non-christian band! And the feeling I had were comparable to those I had when leading worship.
As in, when I played a song I wrote on my keyboard, and the singer sang the love-ballad-like lyrics, it made girls cry.
Examples numbers 2, 3 and 4:
During one trip to Cornwall in 1999 I got really, really, really stoned. I thought I was going to die. This is sort of an anti-peak experience, but it was stronger than anything I'd felt in church. It was also the total opposite of getting badly drunk.
Same trip, I watched the complete solar eclipse. Awesome.
Same trip, I caught a perfect wave while surfing. At least it felt perfect, and went on forever.
Example number 5 and 6:
In 2001 I had a near-death experience. The brakes on my camper van failed while driving down the steepest road in England. It freaked me out.
A few minutes later, while pumped up on adrenaline, I juggled 11 balls for 11 catches for the first time ever. At the time only about four people in the world had done this.
Over these years, from about 1997 to 2001, I had many great experiences, many quite profound, some utterly profound. Each time I reflected that the spiritual peak experiences I craved had been fulfilled outside of a church environment. Some of them had been completely under my own physical control (eg: not at the suggestion of a Christian minister or worship leader), and these drove home the point in an even stronger way: what I once thought spiritual was, in fact, merely human.
It didn't lessen the memory of my Christian spiritual experiences, nor negate their impact, it just showed them to be one variety of many human experiences possible.
The final turning point, when I realized I was no longer a "real" Christian, was the brake failure of my van in 2001.
Unlike the near-drowning in 1992, I didn't even think of God or Heaven. Instead of happiness that I was about to meet Jesus, I had a simple regret that if I died, I wouldn't be able to go traveling in my new van (I'd only bought it three weeks before), and I wouldn't be able to spend my summer busking and surfing and juggling before returning to university that autumn.
My "final" thoughts when my van flipped onto its roof had nothing to do with my past life as Christian, but regret that my future life of new, non-spiritual experiences might not come to pass.
And that was it. Christian spirituality no longer meant anything to me. I didn't need it to live a full life. I was no longer getting any kind of fellowship from Christianity, that function was coming more and more from the juggling sub-culture. With university came exposure to much more music, and Christian rock no longer cut it. I also realized that I no longer cared for the morality as taught in church, seeing as I was just as moral, if not more so, than many Christians I knew. I also didn't believe gays were going to hell.
A few months later, when I went to work for GOD TV, I saw the Christianity=Morality connection dissolve even further, but that's another story.
For a few years I didn't really think of Christianity much, or what my world view might be. I just got on with living my life, establishing a new identity as an adult, trying to have as many new experiences as possible.
I got to the point where I was nothing more than a wishy-washy agnostic on the matter of god, or maybe some kind of pantheist. Then I had a conversation with a friend (same conversation as I mentioned above) and he pretty much said "It's all bullshit. Christianity, astrology, lay lines, crystals. One day someone made something up, told someone, and they believed it. Then the next person believed it too. But at the core, it started with someone making something up."
While I don't think the truth is that simple, my reaction to this was the thought "Yeah, I'm pretty much an atheist."
But the key step was in 2001; the step from Christian to no-need-for-Christianity.
The lesson from all this?
Forget trying to argue with people. It's not going to work. Nobody rationally decides to be a Christian, so trying to use rational arguments to turn them away from Christianity, or any religion, just isn't going to work.
And it doesn't need to work. When it comes to personal beliefs, the rationality or intelligence of the vast majority Christians isn't the deciding factor in their personal faith or belief.
I agree that less religious adherence is probably a good thing. Being tied to millennia-old moral teachings isn't a good idea, as it used to justify all kinds of bigoted words and actions. Also I think concentrating on helpful actions on behalf of others is better than praying for their non-existent souls.
However, if these New Atheists actually want to deconvert the masses, they MUST provide two things:
1. fellowship comparable to a church group,
2. an equal number of opportunities for spiritual-alternative peak experiences.
The first is already underway, to a limited degree, with the Skeptics in the Pub movement. The second? I'm just not seeing it.
Seriously, if anyone has any suggestions, send me an email. But really, what does "no spirituality" have to compete with "real spiritual experiences"?
Life requires much more than just "not-religious" or "not-spiritual". It requires something to replace the human urge to experience euphoria and a sublime connection to the world. I experience these through a variety of measures, none of which have any connection to my "identity" as an atheist, skeptic, science geek or rationalist.
I am all those things, but they are not what make me human.
The major difference between religious fellowship and the self-selected tribe fellowship? The internet. The internet has made it possible for people to gather in large groups and on a regular basis based on non-religious interests. Before the internet, and before travel was easy, religion was one of the only ways to have a large support network. Sure, people could have clubs for their interests, but how big were our local clubs? I don't remember ever having more than 20 people in an interest-based club, ever. Our church had at least 50 families in regular attendance between early and late services. It's clear where the greater support network was. The people who are now part of my tribe are ALL, without exception, in my life because of something I found on the internet. This was what released us from the reliance on religion on a larger scale.
The fellowship has to come first. The peak experiences will follow, because those experiences depend on the people in your life. Whether it is an audience, an opponent, or a love, every person around you shapes your perception of the experiences you have.
Given that, telling people they are wrong to believe a religion is stupid. Antagonizing someone is going to lead to the opposite of fellowship, and they will retreat further back to the fellowship they already have. The way to deconvert is to simply show them that non-religious people can offer just as much fellowship as religious people, and that it can even be based on a potentially stronger bond. How to do that? Don't be a dick; be a friend.
My life is full of experiences I would class as spiritual, because they are just as meaningful to me in exactly the same way as the "real" spiritual experiences I had in church.
My main point is that if we take the fully atheist and rationality view of life, and want others to do the same, there has to be the opportunity for spiritual-style or spiritual-level peak experiences in the same number and opportunity as at a church. I used to go to these Jesus-Camp-style meetings KNOWING I would have such an experience. Many others did the same. This is a big draw! They didn't understand what was going on, not really, but they had a desire, a need, a want, and it was fulfilled through their faith, belief, and church attendance. This is what the worship and praise time in the Sunday church meeting is all about! It's about delivering an experience, on the schedule the Christian wants.
Fellowship is only the start. It was point number one of the two things at the end of my post, but it is only the first. There has to be that next step. It can be different things for different people, but as I said, so far all the peak experiences I've had have been despite my identity as an atheist, not because of it.
You can't ask people to give up on the praise and worship and littergy and prayer sessions, and offer nothing in exchange. It meets a need, a need that isn't replicated by anything in the atheist movement.
I don't ask people to give anything up. I'm not trying to buy anyone. Anyone who is selling something isn't someone I'd listen to about spirituality. Atheism isn't something we should have to sell. There IS NO brand. It's not something that is equal to religion.
Most atheists I know spend their free time doing secular activities they enjoy and get their spiritual experiences there. None of them have ever told me about a spiritual experience of the "atheist brand." Whenever we talk about something amazing, it's always in the context of one of our hobbies. Religion is like a hobby; it is its own activity. Atheism, not so much. Most of us don't spend nearly as much time focusing on atheistic activities as religious people spend on religious activities.
My point is that by connecting people to others who are passionate about the same thing and bringing those people together, we provide the avenues for those secular spiritual experiences. The experiences do not bear the "atheist" label, but they also are not religiously related. Lack of an interest is not a great basis for common ground, so we find others and base our communities on that. That is what leads to the spiritual experiences.
The best way to be an activist atheist is to hook people up with other people who share their passions. Draw the lines in the spider web. People will come to their own conclusions about religion's role in their lives.
Go see Amon Amarth live some time. Trust me on this one. Look for a diverse bill. Watch the entire show. When Amarth gets on stage, watch what happens to the crowd and feel the incredibly positive energy they give off. Try to tell me that it's not "spiritual." There's not a drop of religion in the entire show - unless you count tongue-in-cheek prayers to Thor - but I promise you that you will never see such a profound sense of camaraderie and togetherness as you will on the floor of an Amon Amarth show. It rivals the sense of togetherness at every single church service I've ever attended.
If Amarth isn't your cup of tea, try Finntroll, or Moonsorrow, or Korpiklaani, or nearly any other metal band out there. You'll see a lot of the same things.
You know that ICP song that's being lampooned right now? "Miracles," I believe it's called. The one with such wisdom as "Fuckin' magnets, how do they work?" In no way am I saying that their message is all positive, but if you put it in a different light, they're telling you that the world around you is fucking awesome, and you can find your spiritual fulfillment anywhere that you can direct your passion. Embrace whatever it is you do, pour your "soul" into it, and you will be rewarded. You don't need a 2,000 year old book of laws to tell you how to do that. I have a "spiritual" experience every time I sip on a good beer, because I take the time to embrace what I'm doing.
Trust me, go to a metal show some time. A big one. Come over to the states and I'll buy your ticket. Just pay attention to what's going on and I promise that you'll be rewarded.
This thread also reminds me of a story Penn Jillette told on his radio show. When his mom stopped going to church, her regret was that she would miss the pancake breakfasts. Most people have really fucking boring lives with nothing in them. Work, TV, bed. If someone is going to provide friends, community, and pancakes for free, of course they're going to get an audience. Supernatural belief just happens to be associated with this because of history.
All you really need to spread atheism is a secular source of community. That's partially why in urban areas, where there are things to do, you will find less religion than in bumblefuck where the church has a hand in pretty much every activity that goes on.
I could type more, but if I don't go to sleep this instant, bad things will happen.
It is just ONE type of experience though, and very different to what mos people in church experience. And I used to go to church three times a week. A concert big enough to get the right reaction, and three times a week, just isn't going to happen. Not even once a week.
The New Atheists say "Your spiritual experience doesn't matter because it isn't what you think it is." I'm only slightly paraphrasing here.
So, for those New Atheists that want to turn people away from their religion, there are two routes to go down:
1. Try to use their movement to recreate environments where these peak/spiritual experiences can happen.
2. Try to educate people that the peak/spiritual experiences they have in church can be found elsewhere, and are just as valid.
The closest I've ever seen them come to this is a one-off comment by Dawkins that thinking about evolution and science does have a similar effect. On him. That's good, for him, but that only comes after a life as a scientist.
I don't have any answers here, but from my experience, this is a HUGE issue which is just left out of every discussion or commentary about atheism and deconversion. It isn't just about rationality, nor is it about community, but about life-changing experiences.
This morning, I saw this thread, and expected when I checked on it later to have to close it. I am pleasantly surprised at the lack of retreaded ground. So long as no one makes any claim as to the veracity of a religious belief, as opposed to the effects or ramifications, the thread can continue without requiring the disproving of FSM.
Also, peak experiences are by no means the realm of religious shenanigans alone:
I also feel, as an atheist, that I have a rich and deep inner life that could be equated to a "spiritual" life. I find deep and profound joy in the world around me and have experienced many "ah-ha" type moments, but never in a religious connotation.
So what we've established so far is that religion offers a predictable, stable supply of frequent spiritual experiences, while atheism does not have that same guarantee. As atheism is an absence rather than a presence, perhaps the most productive way for these "New Atheists" to facilitate regular secular spiritual experiences is to try to build a giant database of interest areas + euphoric experiences that go with them, and then they can hook people up with a supply. Maybe you set up a regular Habitat for Humanity project, camping trips, whatever. A big part of the spiritual experience in religion is talking, so perhaps having regular speakers on secular topics in human understanding and abilities could be helpful. Having those speakers and then going out and doing something directly related to the message of each speaker would be even more powerful, given the aforementioned power of suggestion.
Honestly, I don't see the point of tying to militantly force people away from religion. Forced euphoric experiences aren't usually as good as the ones that come naturally. However, hooking people up with the wonder of the world, without needing religion as a conduit? I'm all for that.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting we inject religious people with drugs while whipping them and shouting "There is no God!"
Oh wait, I'm the one who came up with that scenario, not you. Oops.
*Some of you should substitute "masturbation" for "having sex."
The reason I said metal specifically, as opposed to rock, is that metal shows (particularly more extreme metal shows) have a very different character. Extreme metal is the sort of music that you have to want to enjoy; it does not come to you and make you like it. In fact, it tries to make it difficult for you and push you away. In much the same way, walking a given religious path is not meant to be easy. Every major religion emphasizes the difficulty in extracting enjoyment from their particular lifestyle, but it is only through that difficulty that we might get our reward. Each of these cases requires a passionate and dedicated approach to extracting the maximum amount of enjoyment. Nobody passively listens to Emperor.
Most rock shows are somewhat akin to people who are "lightly" religious; those shows are less about the passion necessary to overcome the challenge, and are more about delivering a consistent product that produces a measured response. This is far more akin to your average Sunday church service, where most participants are there to socialize. The message in the sermon delivers a calculated response. Even revival meetings that seem more passionate are closer to big "corporate" rock bands; everything is still calculated to produce a desired effect, and everything becomes very routine.
The people you will find at an extreme metal show will be different in character than the people you find at a big rock show. The extreme metal people are, generally, more passionate about their music because they've invested so much of themselves into it. They're not much different in that regard from people who practice their religion with intense fervor. When I say a "big" extreme metal show, I'm talking about a venue that holds 500 people. That size of show will have a diversity of fans, each extracting their experience in a different specific way. I really encourage you to seek one out. I can give you more recommendations if you'd like. I make no promises about liking the music, but watch the fans and how they interact with each other.
It all comes down to passion and fervor, and that is tied directly to the willingness of the practitioner to be passionate. If you really embrace something with all of your being, you will be rewarded. Geeky people get "spiritual" experiences out of their geekdom, because they have overcome the challenge they set for themselves. That's the message that the neo-atheist movement needs to send; you don't need to believe in God to be passionate about life. Life itself is worthy of passion. Find a thing and embrace it. Really, any experience will do that if you dig into it.
As far as I can tell it comes down to something along the lines already pointed out. Interesting meaningful experiences, a way to assuage guilt, assurance of life after death and community. Leaving an organized religion is scary because it cuts you off from being spoon fed those experiences on a strict schedule.
Leaving a religion however creates an immediate need for a new source of those things, and we are good at filling out needs when they are urgent. We search out new transcendent experiences and ideas. The problem with atheism is exactly what you pointed out, it's a no-religion, they don't actually do anything, it's just a word to mean a bunch of people who don't believe in religion who are pretending that they are some kind of group. I'm not religious, but I don't call myself an atheist, it just seems dumb to me. I'm just me, I just what is necessary when it is necessary. That's the beauty of being sentient, I don't have to operate on a semi conscious system of archaic rules, which is why I left religion in the first place.
I believe in doing the most practical thing, every time. If you're dirty, shower, don't pray to god about it. If you're freaking out in a dangerous situation and praying will help you get a hold of yourself, do it. Just do what works for the given situation, be pragmatic.