I played a whole bunch this morning. I think I did better, but I lost a whole bunch. I think I've figured something out, though.
There was one guy who kept playing against me repeatedly. I only won one round against him, and he was funny. He jokingly said he would play until I turned off my XBox. I never did. Basically, he played Guile, and I couldn't do shit about it. Mostly against the sweep. And this is what I figured out.
He kept doing this same thing against me. Jump in with a kick. Immediately sweep, then EX Flash kick. In order to defend against it I have to block high against the jump kick. Block both hits on the sweep twice. Then block high against the EX Flash. Then and only then is there actually an opening to do something, and you better make it good. You can't use a focus attack or focus cancel to defend it because the sweep breaks the armor. To make it even worse, if you learn to block the flash kick high, he just repeats the sweep.
What is the moral here? Well, the moral is that not all combos are created equal. A combo is a string of moves where if the first move hits, then all the subsequent moves are also guaranteed to hit. However, if the first hit is blocked, there is no guarantee of any of the following moves hitting.
Here's the thing. Let's say I do Bison's simplest combo. Jump in with a HP, stand HP, Psycho Crusher. If that jumping HP is blocked, they can get in a poke and punish you. At the very least they can force you to start blocking and put you on the defensive.
With other characters, though, such as Guile, Ibuki, Cammy, etc. Their combos seem to be just better. Not only are all the attacks guaranteed to hit if the first one hits, but the other player must block the entire combo from beginning to end with seemingly no chance to poke or counter at any point. If they block inappropriately at any point, then all remaining hits in the combo will connect. On top of that, some hits must be specifically blocked high or low, and there are variants the other player can do so that you just have to rely on guesswork to know which way to block. Even worse than that, let's say you completely dodge the first hit, there is not always a way to punish the whiff. I back-dashed to avoid Guile's jump kick a few times, and I tried to come in with the scissor, and the sweep won out! WTF.
Is my analysis correct? Is this other category of better combos real? Or is it just that I do not know how to stop them? Please let it be the latter.
He kept doing this same thing against me. Jump in with a kick. Immediately sweep, then EX Flash kick. In order to defend against it I have to block high against the jump kick. Block both hits on the sweep twice. Then block high against the EX Flash. Then and only then is there actually an opening to do something, and you better make it good. You can't use a focus attack or focus cancel to defend it because the sweep breaks the armor. To make it even worse, if you learn to block the flash kick high, he just repeats the sweep.
You can focus in between the first and second hit of guiles sweep. Block the first hit and immediately begin your focus, absorb the second hit then release. This gives you a free crumple. Guiles double sweep is a very bad move if your opponent is used to blocking it. As for the flash kick, you can block it low or high.
To make it even worse, if you learn to block the flash kick high, he just repeats the sweep.
Guile has a large recovery off any strength of flash kick. At the very least you should be able to walk up and throw him before he is able to attack.
Even worse than that, let's say you completely dodge the first hit, there is not always a way to punish the whiff. I back-dashed to avoid Guile's jump kick a few times, and I tried to come in with the scissor, and the sweep won out! WTF.
Bison's psycho crusher should beat Guiles trip if you’re not point blank (so he doesn’t hit you out of your start up animation). Also, Guiles sweep takes forever to finish. If you know he’s going to do it and you have Psycho Punisher Ultra, you can land it for free.
With other characters, though, such as Guile, Ibuki, Cammy, etc. Their combos seem to be just better.
Characters have strengths and weakness. Some have better block strings/higher damage, better pokes, good ultras/supers, etc...It is very true that some characters will flat out combo better than others, easier as well. But the game is fairly balanced and there are trade offs for this ability. Guile is not one of the better combo characters, you just perceive him as such because you are not used to dealing with his trip. Guile is a very good pokeing character. He also has excellent range on his air grab making him very annoying to get in on.
I actually did pretty sweet tonight with 5 wins and 3 losses. The only things I need to watch for at the moment is getting my ultras and supers off exactly when I want/need them to. And to remember to not jump in as much as I do when playing against Ryu, that always ends in disaster for me.
You can focus in between the first and second hit of guiles sweep. Block the first hit and immediately begin your focus, absorb the second hit then release. This gives you a free crumple. Guiles double sweep is a very bad move if your opponent is used to blocking it. As for the flash kick, you can block it low or high.
GENIUS. Focus the SECOND half of the kick. I should have been able to think of that. Will practice in training room.
I had a breakthrough last night. Focus cancel out of one of my moves leads to a five hit combo, and I can build a foot hadoken during it to hit them on wakeup. This is my first successful use of focus against a human, and I can do it fairly reliably now.
I'm terrible, but I can now beat a non-gnostic nub without any fear of losing. I'm nowhere as far along as Scott, but I'm better at Street Fighter than I've ever been in my life. ;^)
Many players NEVER focus cancel moves in live games. Even some fairly good players don't bother. This is a good step.
I think the reason is that you just aren't conscious of it. You reflexively hit your combo, and you don't even think to focus cancel. Mostly because you first have to check if you have the two bars available, and then you have to be willing to give up those two bars. By the time you even think about that, the chance to cancel has passed. As Bison, I pretty much never build up too many bars because I use EX moves quite a bit. I mostly use them to wake up safely, but also to penetrate projectiles. If I've got two spare bars to FADC, I've probably won anyway because I haven't been getting knocked down.
Mostly because you first have to check if you have the two bars available, and then you have to be willing to give up those two bars. By the time you even think about that, the chance to cancel has passed. As Bison, I pretty much never build up too many bars because I use EX moves quite a bit.
I agree meter management is why most players don't focus cancel combos. It adds another layer of thinking that can slow you down and cause you to lose. Paying attention to the meter your opponent has is also very important. Ryu with 2 meters and ultra is much more dangerous then Ryu with 1 meter and ultra.
Also, certain characters gain more use out of focus canceling then others. As Bison, you generally shouldn't be focus canceling unless your doing some high level gambits. Like doing unsafe trips and if you visually see the opponent blocked, focus back dash cancel on reaction so you will be safe. But that's very high level play.
Like doing unsafe trips and if you visually see the opponent blocked, focus back dash cancel on reaction so you will be safe. But that's very high level play.
Wait, so you're saying that if I do the CHK slide and they block it, that I can do a focus back dash cancel to avoid being punished?
Or maybe you're just saying that I can use the FA cancel before the slide is actually blocked to stop doing the slide and avoid being punished. I know that is possible, but it's a really wasteful move. Unless the punishment is going to lose the match, those two bars are probably more useful elsewhere.
Wait, so you're saying that if I do the CHK slide and they block it, that I can do a focus back dash cancel to avoid being punished?
That's exactly what I'm saying, but you have to be quick. You c.HK slide and see if the opponent blocks or is hit. If he blocks (he didn't fall down) you immediately focus dash back cancel. I imagine this isn't easy to do on reaction but I've seen it done. It would require allot of practice and probably nets you very little potential damage advantage for the bar you use. As if your opponent blocks you are forced to use 2 bars to be safe. Its squeezing as much damage as possible out of your ex meter. Probably not practical for most casual players but it can be done.
Wait, so you're saying that if I do the CHK slide and they block it, that I can do a focus back dash cancel to avoid being punished?
That's exactly what I'm saying, but you have to be quick. You c.HK slide and see if the opponent blocks or is hit. If he blocks (he didn't fall down) you immediately focus dash back cancel. I imagine this isn't easy to do on reaction but I've seen it done. It would require allot of practice and probably nets you very little potential damage advantage for the bar you use. As if your opponent blocks you are forced to use 2 bars to be safe. Its squeezing as much damage as possible out of your ex meter. Probably not practical for most casual players but it can be done.
This will only let me escape if they do something like a regular old shoryuken or a poke. It won't let me escape anything that breaks armor or a grab. Or will it?
Wait, so you're saying that if I do the CHK slide and they block it, that I can do a focus back dash cancel to avoid being punished?
That's exactly what I'm saying, but you have to be quick. You c.HK slide and see if the opponent blocks or is hit. If he blocks (he didn't fall down) you immediately focus dash back cancel. I imagine this isn't easy to do on reaction but I've seen it done. It would require allot of practice and probably nets you very little potential damage advantage for the bar you use. As if your opponent blocks you are forced to use 2 bars to be safe. Its squeezing as much damage as possible out of your ex meter. Probably not practical for most casual players but it can be done.
This will only let me escape if they do something like a regular old shoryuken or a poke. It won't let me escape anything that breaks armor or a grab. Or will it?
Since your focus canceling your opponent should still be in block stun for the start up of your dash. Your opponent wouldn't be able to do a normal grab to catch you. Bison's back dash is very quick and goes pretty far. You would escape most possible punishes. Maybe a T.Hawk command grab would get you. Fie Long's reca would defiantly catch you. It's not safe on everything but it would be safe on most. Nothing is perfect.
You're all going to disagree with me on this one, but Dan isn't that bad. I got my ass kicked a few times with him last night, but managed to pull off some wins too. His decent at poking, and his Super and Ultras tend to catch people off guard. Maybe no one is use to fighting against him and that catches people off guard. His biggest problem is his abysmal range. I counter counter with aggressive tactics.
For those of you that have 10 gigs to spare SSF4 hitbox data for all characters. Have fun .
*edit* The torrent has videos of every character performing every move. The character is on a black background and the hitboxes are overlaid on top of the character model. The torrent is divided up per character then per move set. (aka Ryu - standing normal moves) so you can just download the character information your interested in.
So, I'm super late to the party, having just picked up a second-hand 360 from a guy I worked with, but I'm finally on the SSFIV train. Really liking Ibuki at this point. I'll add everyone on Xbox Live so we can play some games. If anyone's still playing, of course.
Starcraft II has more or less taken all of my time from SSF4. I still goof around in training mode sometimes and try out new characters in ranked (resulting in my PP to plummet to 400 in every time) but it's nothing compared to when I was learning the game a year ago. I hit the roof of my skill in the game which also discouraged me some what as I am no longer improving. I could improve, but I would need to quit my job and play 12 hours a day. Diminishing returns is a bitch.
I could improve, but I would need to quit my job and play 12 hours a day. Diminishing returns is a bitch.
Yeah. With fighting games, you seem to plateau right about the point where you're too good to play with your friends, but not good enough to play with anyone who's actually good.
This seems incredibly more efficient then a stick. Since I am used to using a keyboard (FPS's, SC, and I'm used to playing fighting games on them from emulators) I do not think it would take me to long to adapt to this. Looking into ordering one.
Is anyone else thinking about getting the SSF4: Arcade Edition??? I'm interested in the rebalanced, but not so much the new characters.
I've heard a bunch of different things. I have to confirm them before I pay any moneys. The scariest thing I've heard is that the two new characters, the twins, are just better than everyone else. Again, need confirmation.
So, according to Destructoid, if you want to play online with the new characters and new balance you'll only be able to play with other people who get AE as well which means two things.
1. you'll be at the mercy of the adoption rate 2. you'll be pretty much guaranteed to get matched with higher skill players since the adoption rate, I'm guessing, will be disproportionatly the serious business players
EVO is going to be running with AE so anyone who's the real deal with Bill McNeal will be getting it. If your $15 is(are?) precious, maybe wait until after EVO and see if the top players declare it a disaster or something.
Purchased it last night with a $20.00 Amazon credit that I had laying around, and they nerfed the hell out of my Ryu. Much sadness. I haven't tried any of the new characters yet, since I didn't play much, but I'll give it a go again tonight. Again I'm ColombianShadow on PSN for anyone who wants to throw down.
This seems incredibly more efficient then a stick. Since I am used to using a keyboard (FPS's, SC, and I'm used to playing fighting games on them from emulators) I do not think it would take me to long to adapt to this. Looking into ordering one.
This input device would hinder you greatly, it doesn't seem to be intuitively designed as far as the motions go. A person who has played on a joystick for a day would destroy you. What seems to be suspect is the 360, notice how short that part of the video was and to accomplish one of these you have to press 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 4th, 3rd in order and then which ever punch or kick button. Its basically the same argument as play FPS games with game controllers vs. mice and keyboards.
I originally played on emulators and forced myself to use keyboards (I too only played FPS and RTS games before). I bought a joystick and did not get the instantaneous improvement that I expected but after a day of practice I was able to do reactionary moves amazingly easily.
So, according to Destructoid, if you want to play online with the new characters and new balance you'll only be able to play with other people who get AE as well which means two things.
1. you'll be at the mercy of the adoption rate 2. you'll be pretty much guaranteed to get matched with higher skill players since the adoption rate, I'm guessing, will be disproportionatly the serious business players
EVO is going to be running with AE so anyone who's the real deal with Bill McNeal will be getting it. If your $15 is(are?) precious, maybe wait until after EVO and see if the top players declare it a disaster or something.
The game seems to be much more balanced than the prior 2 games especially from the perspective of less popular characters, however there has been some debate already as to whether Yun and Yang are overpowered or whether people haven't yet found a way to fully exploit their weaknesses. Although from what I've played against Yun (for what its worth) - he doesn't have a very good keep away game and has short range on all his throws so hard matchups would be Zangief, Elfuerte and E. Honda.
Is anyone else on the forum getting SSF4 AE for PC?
Comments
There was one guy who kept playing against me repeatedly. I only won one round against him, and he was funny. He jokingly said he would play until I turned off my XBox. I never did. Basically, he played Guile, and I couldn't do shit about it. Mostly against the sweep. And this is what I figured out.
He kept doing this same thing against me. Jump in with a kick. Immediately sweep, then EX Flash kick. In order to defend against it I have to block high against the jump kick. Block both hits on the sweep twice. Then block high against the EX Flash. Then and only then is there actually an opening to do something, and you better make it good. You can't use a focus attack or focus cancel to defend it because the sweep breaks the armor. To make it even worse, if you learn to block the flash kick high, he just repeats the sweep.
What is the moral here? Well, the moral is that not all combos are created equal. A combo is a string of moves where if the first move hits, then all the subsequent moves are also guaranteed to hit. However, if the first hit is blocked, there is no guarantee of any of the following moves hitting.
Here's the thing. Let's say I do Bison's simplest combo. Jump in with a HP, stand HP, Psycho Crusher. If that jumping HP is blocked, they can get in a poke and punish you. At the very least they can force you to start blocking and put you on the defensive.
With other characters, though, such as Guile, Ibuki, Cammy, etc. Their combos seem to be just better. Not only are all the attacks guaranteed to hit if the first one hits, but the other player must block the entire combo from beginning to end with seemingly no chance to poke or counter at any point. If they block inappropriately at any point, then all remaining hits in the combo will connect. On top of that, some hits must be specifically blocked high or low, and there are variants the other player can do so that you just have to rely on guesswork to know which way to block. Even worse than that, let's say you completely dodge the first hit, there is not always a way to punish the whiff. I back-dashed to avoid Guile's jump kick a few times, and I tried to come in with the scissor, and the sweep won out! WTF.
Is my analysis correct? Is this other category of better combos real? Or is it just that I do not know how to stop them? Please let it be the latter.
I'm terrible, but I can now beat a non-gnostic nub without any fear of losing. I'm nowhere as far along as Scott, but I'm better at Street Fighter than I've ever been in my life. ;^)
Also, certain characters gain more use out of focus canceling then others. As Bison, you generally shouldn't be focus canceling unless your doing some high level gambits. Like doing unsafe trips and if you visually see the opponent blocked, focus back dash cancel on reaction so you will be safe. But that's very high level play.
Or maybe you're just saying that I can use the FA cancel before the slide is actually blocked to stop doing the slide and avoid being punished. I know that is possible, but it's a really wasteful move. Unless the punishment is going to lose the match, those two bars are probably more useful elsewhere.
*edit* The torrent has videos of every character performing every move. The character is on a black background and the hitboxes are overlaid on top of the character model. The torrent is divided up per character then per move set. (aka Ryu - standing normal moves) so you can just download the character information your interested in.
This seems incredibly more efficient then a stick. Since I am used to using a keyboard (FPS's, SC, and I'm used to playing fighting games on them from emulators) I do not think it would take me to long to adapt to this. Looking into ordering one.
1. you'll be at the mercy of the adoption rate
2. you'll be pretty much guaranteed to get matched with higher skill players since the adoption rate, I'm guessing, will be disproportionatly the serious business players
EVO is going to be running with AE so anyone who's the real deal with Bill McNeal will be getting it. If your $15 is(are?) precious, maybe wait until after EVO and see if the top players declare it a disaster or something.
Again I'm ColombianShadow on PSN for anyone who wants to throw down.
I originally played on emulators and forced myself to use keyboards (I too only played FPS and RTS games before). I bought a joystick and did not get the instantaneous improvement that I expected but after a day of practice I was able to do reactionary moves amazingly easily.
The game seems to be much more balanced than the prior 2 games especially from the perspective of less popular characters, however there has been some debate already as to whether Yun and Yang are overpowered or whether people haven't yet found a way to fully exploit their weaknesses. Although from what I've played against Yun (for what its worth) - he doesn't have a very good keep away game and has short range on all his throws so hard matchups would be Zangief, Elfuerte and E. Honda.
Is anyone else on the forum getting SSF4 AE for PC?