I did a bit of research (checked here), and a bit of testing, and this seems to be an accurate formula for the cost of upgrading: Base cost for Economy / Industry - $500 Base cost for Science - $5000 Cost of upgrade = floor ((current level + 1) * (base cost) / (resources + 5))
If anyone finds an exception, tell me so I can tweak it. There is some use to a formula like this, since you're not told the upgrade costs of a planet you haven't been to, even if your scanners tell you the natural resources.
An interesting point is that, because you're only paid once every 24 hours, you can leave economic upgrades until your last available opportunity before beginning of the next day. This is better in a few ways:- - if the star is captured before the next day, you won't have spent that money just to improve your enemy's economy. - in doing so, you give away less information to your opponents - if you're going to capture another star that same day, you might find that the upgrades at the new star are cheaper. - it allows you to decide to upgrade Industry or Science instead, if you find that doing so is a better choice
This is not the case for Industry and Science, because ship production and scientific research progress happens more frequently.
Similarly to Apsup, The Golem has built a third super carrier. We suspect that The Golem is intent on capturing more stars in the first few days, to bolster growth. However, his economy remains rather weak at 6 on this first day.
According to the spies' predictions, nothing of note will happen until the second day of conflict begins 6h 20m from now. They could be wrong, though - perhaps one of these great empires will conquer a third or even a fourth star!
Unfortunately, Lord Admiral Yoshokatana seems, to the best of our knowledge, to be persisting in doing nothing at all. I suspect his neighbours are rejoicing in the ripe star pickings they're going to get out of his territory.
The spies were proven wrong just now. A crueller master of spies would have had them all put to death, but to do so would only encourage future spies to lie to save their own skins. Apsup has now captured three stars - perhaps Shiam will also capture a third star before this day is over, leaving Yosho and Scott as the only ones with two stars.
EDIT: In a further development, Dromaro now has 4 stars, while some people continue to only have two!
since you're not told the upgrade costs of a planet you haven't been to, even if your scanners tell you the natural resources.
Go to Options -> Star Upgrade Costs. Then the upgrade costs of each planet will display on the map. This includes all planets in scanner range and that you have been to.
The second day has begun. EDIT: Just over a day in, this is how things look:
Dromaro is in the lead with 5 stars, while lackofcheese has aggressively captured a star that was closer to Scott's starting position than his own. We are left to wonder if anything interesting will occur as a result - perhaps lackofcheese was hoping The Golem also sent a fleet that way, since this would result in a victory for the defender, or perhaps lackofcheese intends to make a grab for some of Scott's nearer stars before Scott's own ships get there?
Dromaro forges on ahead, now with 6 stars. It looks like his early start to the game is definitely getting him plenty of stars, despite only having two fleets. However, from a private communication we intercepted, we heard "I feel I've made a terrible mistake already and will make many more." We are led to wonder what this terrible mistake is that Dromaro feels he made.
The third year has begun, and further developments are arising quickly, as the game's pace has sped up with the growth of these great civilizations.
Having begun in areas with relatively high star concentrations, Dromaro and Apsup continue to expand into the great beyond, both of them leading in star count with 8 stars. It won't be long until sensor contact between them; we are left to wonder how those three stars in the middle left will be divided. Dromaro seems to have chosen to keep Economy and Industry roughly equal, and as a result Dromaro currently has the most ships, 58, beating the second highest count by 6.
Yoshokatana's continued inaction is quite worrying. Could he know something the rest do not? Or has his civilization fallen prey to the deadly Space Flu, leaving barely enough survivors to keep his planets running? Either way, it seems that it will yet be some time before any of the other civilizations achieve contact, as no ship in the universe is capable of the long jump to that isolated corner of space.
In the bottom right corner, things are getting rather heated between The Golem, lackofcheese, and Shiam, with each having 5 or 6 stars. It is possible that conflict will arise at any moment at any of three border systems, Alniyat, Alaraph (both orange), and Kaffaljidhma, which fell to the red tide in a bold move by The Golem before Shiam could lay claim to it. In the meantime, lackofcheese is the only one of the three with significant room to expand, having some extra stars hidden deep behind his borders.
For the moment, all of these civilizations balk at spending their money on expensive Science Facilities, with each having only one.
Currently, lackofcheese is in the lead for Economy with 13 and Industry with 9, indicating a clear but not excessive bias towards moneymaking. This may change as these civilizations spend their income from the third day, however.
Notably, The Golem has chosen to build 4 fleets, as opposed to 3 among the other active players. Since there are few stars left for The Golem to capture, this is a clear sign that The Golem is gearing up for war, although the intended targets remain unknown.
Notably, The Golem has chosen to build 4 fleets, as opposed to 3 among the other active players. Since there are few stars left for The Golem to capture, this is a clear sign that The Golem didn't plan very well, and has likely made an error.
Notably, The Golem has chosen to build 4 fleets, as opposed to 3 among the other active players. Since there are few stars left for The Golem to capture, this is a clear sign that The Golemdidn't plan very well, and has likely made an error.
Oh snap!
It would seem that The Golem is the first to research a technology, having chosen to research the cheap sensor range technology first. Will this help to reduce his rate of tactical blunders?
Indeed, it would appear that The Golem's fourth fleet has disappeared. Presumably, it was foolishly lost attacking a star system it had no hope of capturing. In the meantime, Apsup and Dromaro are finally within sensor range of one another.
Apart from two stars currently outside of anyone's jump range, and Yosho's inaccessible area, only 8 stars remain uncaptured at this juncture.
Presumably, it was foolishly lost attacking a star system it had no hope of capturing.
I didn't realize that once you commit to a move, you can't turn around in mid-space. The star was completely empty when I made a move, and reinforcements were able to reach it before I got there. Being unable to retreat, there was no hope.
Presumably, it was foolishly lost attacking a star system it had no hope of capturing.
I didn't realize that once you commit to a move, you can't turn around in mid-space. The star was completely empty when I made a move, and reinforcements were able to reach it before I got there. Being unable to retreat, there was no hope.
It's quite clearly stated here that you can't turn around in mid-jump. Besides, it should've been obvious if you took the time to fiddle with waypoints at all.
It's quite clearly statedherethat you can't turn around in mid-jump. Besides, it should've been obvious if you took the time to fiddle with waypoints at all.
It would appear that Yoshokatana has finally begun to move. He now has 4 fleets, and is likely sending them out in an attempt to quickly capture the many stars in his isolated stars in his section of the map. Nonetheless, it's an uphill battle for him, as his Economy of 7 is less than half of the highest, 17. While no one can reach him now, how long will that last?
The fourth year has commenced, with each player collecting annual taxes from their stars. By our best estimates, the amounts collected (10x Economy at year end) were $170 for lackofcheese, $130 for Dromaro and Shiam, $120 for Apsup, $110 for The Golem, and a meagre $70 for Yoshokatana. Clearly, the brush-headed people of lackofcheese's empire have a natural talent for trade.
It would appear that lackofcheese and Dromaro have used their prodigous economic prowess to build Science facilities, giving them twice the rate of technological advancement of the other great civilizations (and Yoshokatana).
All players have between 8 and 10 Industry. However, Dromaro's great 10-star squid empire, having upgraded Industry early, has the most ships (74), while Yosho's slow-moving snake-men have only 60 ships and 2 stars.
For some reason, Shiam has 5 fleets at this point. We can only guess at what these strange bug creatures intend to do with them.
Meanwhile, the many-tentacled beasts of The Golem have, for the moment, avoided any more major mistakes.
At the beginning of the fifth year, it seems lackofcheese collected $190, Dromaro and Shiam collected $140, The Golem collected $130, and Apsup collected $120.
It appears that the brush-heads, the squid monsters, and Apsup's big-eyed reptiles have taken a clear lead in star counts; each of the three can expand into uncontested territory for a total of 12 or 13 stars.
Shiam and The Golem, on the other hand, have already run out of room to expand with 7 and 8 stars respectively. While they remain competitive in Economy and Industry, they have not been able to keep up with the scientific progress of the three great empires.
Despite their lethargic nature, Yosho's turtle-snakes are trying desperately to catch up to everyone else, but the other civilizations have income from 1.5x to 2x as high. However, Yosho might have a chance if the others begin to fight one another and don't upgrade their hyperspace drives to be able to bridge the massive gap to his isolated corner of space. Fortunately for Lord Admiral Yoshokatana, there are 11 stars in his area, which is more than Shiam and The Golem currently lay claim to.
Even though the extra income suggests lackofcheese has focused on Economy, the brush-heads remain highly competitive in Industry and Science. At year end, they were matching the scientific leaders with 2 Science facilities, and only trailing Shiam's 13 Industry by 2. Clearly, their fiscal skills are paying off handsomely.
The most interesting situation at the moment is the technological progress of the various peoples. This year, lackofcheese seems to have chosen to upgrade his Science to 3, which means his technologies will research 1.5x as fast as Dromaro and Aspup who currently have 2, and three times as fast as Shiam, The Golem, and Yoshokatana.
So far, no one has upgraded their jump range from the default 0.5 light years to the next step, 0.75 light years. This is fortunate for Yoshokatana, since it means no one can reach him at the moment. Additionally, there are stars at the bottom of the map and the right side which are also currently unreachable.
It appears that Dromaro and lackofcheese have chosen to research speed as their first technology, as their ships have increased in speed from 0.48 light years per day to 0.72 light years per day. Meanwhile, Yoshokatana and Apsup's ships now have a weapon strength of 3 instead of the default 2, which, despite their ship counts being the lowest, puts their militaries among the most threatening in the universe.
Meanwhile, The Golem still only has the quick and easy Sensor Range tech, giving him a scan range of 0.45 light years instead of the default 0.35. Since that tech takes only half the research of speed or weapons, he could be halfway through researching one of these at the moment, or 1/4 through researching jump range. However, we cannot know which of these it is.
Intriguingly, Shiam appears to have both the speed and weapons upgrades, despite only having one Science Facility. This suggests that someone sent him one of these technologies, but there are four possible culprits! Who did it, and why?
In a recent development, a star has actually changed hands for (I think) the first time!
Shiam successfully took Kaffaljidhma from The Golem, with both players incurring significant losses. Now both players have less ships than even the backward turtle-snakes of the northern reaches; 68 for The Golem, and 65 for Shiam. Perhaps someone sent Shiam that extra tech in order to influence this battle? We cannot say for sure.
It appears that The Golem has lost 2 points in Economy and 2 in Industry as a result of this conflict, suggesting this star was a significant investment. Given the loss of 20 ships or so a side, it was well defended too. Meanwhile, Shiam has gained 2 points in Industry but retains the same Economy score - it would appear that Industrial facilities can be taken over directly. Apparently, economic facilities are merely cannibalized for a one-time payout of $10xEconomy. Along with the extra Industry, this should help Shiam regain his lost ships.
On the other hand, The Golem's great civilization appears to have peaked. Unless these tentacle beasts gain a strong ally, their doom is on the cards.
This game has serious problems with starting position and the layout of stars being too important. It makes the game asymmetrical and unbalanced. This can be solved by making the map perfectly symmetrical. It can also be solved the way Master of Orion 2 solved it, with a few scattered wormholes connecting distant stars in an instant.
The Orange player only has two stars that are within range of enemies. The purple player also only has two stars that are within range of enemies. I only have one star that is not within range of an enemy. We shall have to play again on a much much larger map, to see how that goes.
As it is, some of you guys are unreachable, and can concentrate all your defenses on a single point without worry. I have to spread my defenses, making them weaker than your concentrated force at every point. I'm also forced to spend more on industry earlier, so I have less economy, so I'm catch-22'd into a death spiral. I made a mistake earlier not knowing the rules, but that was only 5 ships, not exactly a tide-turner.
This game has serious problems with starting position and the layout of stars being too important. It makes the game asymmetrical and unbalanced. This can be solved by making the map perfectly symmetrical. It can also be solved the way Master of Orion 2 solved it, with a few scattered wormholes connecting distant stars in an instant.
The Orange player only has two stars that are within range of enemies. The purple player also only has two stars that are within range of enemies. I only have one star that isnotwithin range of an enemy. We shall have to play again on a much much larger map, to see how that goes.
That being said, it depends if you are trying to make a good board game or a good simulation. No situation in real world situation would be asymmetrical. (Kinda like how people say Civ 5 is a good board game while Civ IV is a good simulation.[none multiplayer of course])
That being said, it depends if you are trying to make a good board game or a good simulation. No situation in real world situation would be asymmetrical. (Kinda like how people say Civ 5 is a good board game while Civ IV is a good simulation.[none multiplayer of course])
Civ IV is not a simulation either. X-Plane is a simulation, compared to say, Pilotwings, which is not. Simulations aren't games, except for the rare instance when they are simulating a game, usually a sport. However, games are often built on top of simulations. For example, you can load up a driving simulator and say "most epic crash wins!" and have at it.
You have a point, but there are a few things you've left out of your assessment.
Firstly, it's sensor range that matters much more so than jump range, and only 3 of your stars are within sensor range of anyone else. Why is it sensor range that matters? Without seeing ship and fleet concetrations in an area, the risk of attacking it is too massive. Even if they can sense past your outermost stars, and they send a fleet to a star with few ships defending it, you can still reposition before they get there. What you need to do to defend effectively is distribute your ships so that you can see an enemy fleet coming and reinforce the star before the enemy fleet gets there.
Secondly, one of those two stars on my borders was in fact closer to your starting position than mine. Had you captured Alniyat first, I wouldn't have touched it up until my sensor tech was good enough to see what you had there, which I think would have actually required level 3 sensors - quite a long way down the track. That would've left you needing to defend only Naos and Kaffaljidhma, which ought to have been manageable for you.
Overall, although your position was poor and the game ought to be more symmetrical in that regard, you've made more mistakes than you realise.
Overall, although your position was poor and the game ought to be more symmetrical in that regard, you've made more mistakes than you realise.
From poking around at the game, I agree.
I'm fine with wargames that aren't perfectly symmetrical, and Scott will often complain about wargames where he feels he has been slighted when in fact he slighted himself with poor planning.
Comments
Base cost for Economy / Industry - $500
Base cost for Science - $5000
Cost of upgrade = floor ((current level + 1) * (base cost) / (resources + 5))
If anyone finds an exception, tell me so I can tweak it. There is some use to a formula like this, since you're not told the upgrade costs of a planet you haven't been to, even if your scanners tell you the natural resources.
- if the star is captured before the next day, you won't have spent that money just to improve your enemy's economy.
- in doing so, you give away less information to your opponents
- if you're going to capture another star that same day, you might find that the upgrades at the new star are cheaper.
- it allows you to decide to upgrade Industry or Science instead, if you find that doing so is a better choice
This is not the case for Industry and Science, because ship production and scientific research progress happens more frequently.
According to the spies' predictions, nothing of note will happen until the second day of conflict begins 6h 20m from now. They could be wrong, though - perhaps one of these great empires will conquer a third or even a fourth star!
Unfortunately, Lord Admiral Yoshokatana seems, to the best of our knowledge, to be persisting in doing nothing at all. I suspect his neighbours are rejoicing in the ripe star pickings they're going to get out of his territory.
Apsup has now captured three stars - perhaps Shiam will also capture a third star before this day is over, leaving Yosho and Scott as the only ones with two stars.
EDIT: In a further development, Dromaro now has 4 stars, while some people continue to only have two!
EDIT: Just over a day in, this is how things look:
Dromaro is in the lead with 5 stars, while lackofcheese has aggressively captured a star that was closer to Scott's starting position than his own. We are left to wonder if anything interesting will occur as a result - perhaps lackofcheese was hoping The Golem also sent a fleet that way, since this would result in a victory for the defender, or perhaps lackofcheese intends to make a grab for some of Scott's nearer stars before Scott's own ships get there?
Having begun in areas with relatively high star concentrations, Dromaro and Apsup continue to expand into the great beyond, both of them leading in star count with 8 stars. It won't be long until sensor contact between them; we are left to wonder how those three stars in the middle left will be divided. Dromaro seems to have chosen to keep Economy and Industry roughly equal, and as a result Dromaro currently has the most ships, 58, beating the second highest count by 6.
Yoshokatana's continued inaction is quite worrying. Could he know something the rest do not? Or has his civilization fallen prey to the deadly Space Flu, leaving barely enough survivors to keep his planets running? Either way, it seems that it will yet be some time before any of the other civilizations achieve contact, as no ship in the universe is capable of the long jump to that isolated corner of space.
In the bottom right corner, things are getting rather heated between The Golem, lackofcheese, and Shiam, with each having 5 or 6 stars. It is possible that conflict will arise at any moment at any of three border systems, Alniyat, Alaraph (both orange), and Kaffaljidhma, which fell to the red tide in a bold move by The Golem before Shiam could lay claim to it. In the meantime, lackofcheese is the only one of the three with significant room to expand, having some extra stars hidden deep behind his borders.
For the moment, all of these civilizations balk at spending their money on expensive Science Facilities, with each having only one.
Currently, lackofcheese is in the lead for Economy with 13 and Industry with 9, indicating a clear but not excessive bias towards moneymaking. This may change as these civilizations spend their income from the third day, however.
Notably, The Golem has chosen to build 4 fleets, as opposed to 3 among the other active players. Since there are few stars left for The Golem to capture, this is a clear sign that The Golem is gearing up for war, although the intended targets remain unknown.
It would seem that The Golem is the first to research a technology, having chosen to research the cheap sensor range technology first. Will this help to reduce his rate of tactical blunders?
In the meantime, Apsup and Dromaro are finally within sensor range of one another.
Apart from two stars currently outside of anyone's jump range, and Yosho's inaccessible area, only 8 stars remain uncaptured at this juncture.
The fourth year has commenced, with each player collecting annual taxes from their stars. By our best estimates, the amounts collected (10x Economy at year end) were $170 for lackofcheese, $130 for Dromaro and Shiam, $120 for Apsup, $110 for The Golem, and a meagre $70 for Yoshokatana. Clearly, the brush-headed people of lackofcheese's empire have a natural talent for trade.
It would appear that lackofcheese and Dromaro have used their prodigous economic prowess to build Science facilities, giving them twice the rate of technological advancement of the other great civilizations (and Yoshokatana).
All players have between 8 and 10 Industry. However, Dromaro's great 10-star squid empire, having upgraded Industry early, has the most ships (74), while Yosho's slow-moving snake-men have only 60 ships and 2 stars.
For some reason, Shiam has 5 fleets at this point. We can only guess at what these strange bug creatures intend to do with them.
Meanwhile, the many-tentacled beasts of The Golem have, for the moment, avoided any more major mistakes.
At the beginning of the fifth year, it seems lackofcheese collected $190, Dromaro and Shiam collected $140, The Golem collected $130, and Apsup collected $120.
It appears that the brush-heads, the squid monsters, and Apsup's big-eyed reptiles have taken a clear lead in star counts; each of the three can expand into uncontested territory for a total of 12 or 13 stars.
Shiam and The Golem, on the other hand, have already run out of room to expand with 7 and 8 stars respectively. While they remain competitive in Economy and Industry, they have not been able to keep up with the scientific progress of the three great empires.
Despite their lethargic nature, Yosho's turtle-snakes are trying desperately to catch up to everyone else, but the other civilizations have income from 1.5x to 2x as high. However, Yosho might have a chance if the others begin to fight one another and don't upgrade their hyperspace drives to be able to bridge the massive gap to his isolated corner of space. Fortunately for Lord Admiral Yoshokatana, there are 11 stars in his area, which is more than Shiam and The Golem currently lay claim to.
Even though the extra income suggests lackofcheese has focused on Economy, the brush-heads remain highly competitive in Industry and Science. At year end, they were matching the scientific leaders with 2 Science facilities, and only trailing Shiam's 13 Industry by 2. Clearly, their fiscal skills are paying off handsomely.
So far, no one has upgraded their jump range from the default 0.5 light years to the next step, 0.75 light years. This is fortunate for Yoshokatana, since it means no one can reach him at the moment. Additionally, there are stars at the bottom of the map and the right side which are also currently unreachable.
It appears that Dromaro and lackofcheese have chosen to research speed as their first technology, as their ships have increased in speed from 0.48 light years per day to 0.72 light years per day. Meanwhile, Yoshokatana and Apsup's ships now have a weapon strength of 3 instead of the default 2, which, despite their ship counts being the lowest, puts their militaries among the most threatening in the universe.
Meanwhile, The Golem still only has the quick and easy Sensor Range tech, giving him a scan range of 0.45 light years instead of the default 0.35. Since that tech takes only half the research of speed or weapons, he could be halfway through researching one of these at the moment, or 1/4 through researching jump range. However, we cannot know which of these it is.
Intriguingly, Shiam appears to have both the speed and weapons upgrades, despite only having one Science Facility. This suggests that someone sent him one of these technologies, but there are four possible culprits! Who did it, and why?
Shiam successfully took Kaffaljidhma from The Golem, with both players incurring significant losses. Now both players have less ships than even the backward turtle-snakes of the northern reaches; 68 for The Golem, and 65 for Shiam. Perhaps someone sent Shiam that extra tech in order to influence this battle? We cannot say for sure.
It appears that The Golem has lost 2 points in Economy and 2 in Industry as a result of this conflict, suggesting this star was a significant investment. Given the loss of 20 ships or so a side, it was well defended too. Meanwhile, Shiam has gained 2 points in Industry but retains the same Economy score - it would appear that Industrial facilities can be taken over directly. Apparently, economic facilities are merely cannibalized for a one-time payout of $10xEconomy. Along with the extra Industry, this should help Shiam regain his lost ships.
On the other hand, The Golem's great civilization appears to have peaked. Unless these tentacle beasts gain a strong ally, their doom is on the cards.
The Orange player only has two stars that are within range of enemies. The purple player also only has two stars that are within range of enemies. I only have one star that is not within range of an enemy. We shall have to play again on a much much larger map, to see how that goes.
As it is, some of you guys are unreachable, and can concentrate all your defenses on a single point without worry. I have to spread my defenses, making them weaker than your concentrated force at every point. I'm also forced to spend more on industry earlier, so I have less economy, so I'm catch-22'd into a death spiral. I made a mistake earlier not knowing the rules, but that was only 5 ships, not exactly a tide-turner.
Firstly, it's sensor range that matters much more so than jump range, and only 3 of your stars are within sensor range of anyone else. Why is it sensor range that matters? Without seeing ship and fleet concetrations in an area, the risk of attacking it is too massive. Even if they can sense past your outermost stars, and they send a fleet to a star with few ships defending it, you can still reposition before they get there. What you need to do to defend effectively is distribute your ships so that you can see an enemy fleet coming and reinforce the star before the enemy fleet gets there.
Secondly, one of those two stars on my borders was in fact closer to your starting position than mine. Had you captured Alniyat first, I wouldn't have touched it up until my sensor tech was good enough to see what you had there, which I think would have actually required level 3 sensors - quite a long way down the track. That would've left you needing to defend only Naos and Kaffaljidhma, which ought to have been manageable for you.
Overall, although your position was poor and the game ought to be more symmetrical in that regard, you've made more mistakes than you realise.
I'm fine with wargames that aren't perfectly symmetrical, and Scott will often complain about wargames where he feels he has been slighted when in fact he slighted himself with poor planning.