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News Quality and Perspective

edited January 2011 in Everything Else
I've been making a habit of watching Newsline on NHK World online for the past few weeks, but I watched a bit of MSNBC on TV recently. It was an actual news program, not an OP ED show, but I was still amazed as to how differently two stations reported on the same news (in this case, the meeting between US and other countries with Iran concerning their nuclear program). I realize that different points of view can create different interpretations of the same events, but it was almost like they were talking about two completely separate meetings.

I thought that, since this forum has a great many participants from around the globe, maybe some of you might have something to add.
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Comments

  • While it's obvious sometimes you forget that things can be viewed not just from a liberal or conservative or neutral standpoint but also from the country, race and creed aspect as well as other different viewpoints. It's always smart to try and find outside sources to keep your view in perspective. But really with the US being the best country in the world why should we pay attention to others people outside the US's view.
  • Yeah, this seems kind of straightforward to me.

    1) There's no such thing as a 100% neutral perspective.
    2) That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, however.
    3) MSNBC & Fox do not try. CNN sucks also, though they're more inconsistent about it.
    4) Watch something that tries hard to be neutral, because it's better to form your own opinions than to have someone tell you what your opinions are. Things that are awesome: BBC, NPR, Reuters, some people like Al Jazeera, and my dad swears by STRATFOR, but it costs something like $350/year.
  • I really don't care what the bias of the news provider is. If they are left, right, up, diagonal, green, purple, or six dimensional it doesn't matter. If they get the facts right, and provide all of the relevant facts, then the rest doesn't matter. As long as the people are smart and have the facts right, then no matter what their bias is, it will still be a good source of news. The problem is that just about every news you are reading or watching these days leaves out important information, oversimplifies to the point of being incorrect, or is just flat out lying.
  • I really don't care what the bias of the news provider is. If they are left, right, up, diagonal, green, purple, or six dimensional it doesn't matter. If they get the facts right, and provide all of the relevant facts, then the rest doesn't matter. As long as the people are smart and have the facts right, then no matter what their bias is, it will still be a good source of news.
    Scott is right about this. All information is biased. In a way, I respect Fox News for realizing that catering to their audience is the way to go. The problem comes when the spin is more important than the facts.

    News consumers want facts. But they also want explosions. They want sex and scandal and schaddenfreud. They want someone to blame. They want the rollercoaster experience. As long as the facts remain the core of the reporting, making the news more a production is not ethically problematic.
  • The problem is that just about every news you are reading or watching these days leaves out important information, oversimplifies to the point of being incorrect, or is just flat out lying.
  • If they get the facts right, and provide all of the relevant facts, then the rest doesn't matter.
    The problem is that it's literally impossible to provide all of the relevant facts for most news items in a news show. It's up to the viewer to question what is presented and do their own research. The problem is that most viewers don't do that because they lack the know-how.
  • The problem is that most viewers don't do that because they lack the know-how don't care.
  • edited January 2011
    The problem is that most viewers don't do that because theylack the know-howdon't care.
    While I do concur that many people don't appear to care about many news items, I wouldn't say that's the primary issue here. Many people, when educated about topics they know little about, take an interest in those topics. We want to think critically; many people just don't because of information overload.

    I liken it to the way that many people avoid certain kinds of video games because they're bad at them, not because the game isn't fun or interesting.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • information overload
    Yes. There is too much information, so people look to sources that have news they want to hear. They also look to sources they know they will agree with.
  • Yes. There is too much information, so people look to sources that have news they want to hear. They also look to sources they know they will agree with.
    And you know what's really depressing about confirmation bias? I've yet to meet a person who's actually immune to it. I've interacted with countless hundreds of high-ranking scientists and such people, and everyone still argues from perspective, not fact.

    You'd think that analyzing enough differing perspectives would yield something close to reality, but sometimes, things get glossed over. The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act proved that even the most intelligent out there don't do all the research they need to in order to have a truly informed opinion.
  • perspective, not fact.
    Perspective often changes* facts. Facts don't often change perspective.

    *By change, I mean filter. Given the same information. Two completely logical people with different views can come up with different but still logically sound opinions.
  • Wyatt beat me to the point I wanted to make. Knowing the perspective matters more then facts in many cases because the reporter is a flawed observer.
  • The real fun comes during election season, when you get calls from opposing political candidates, each claiming that your story was slanted in favor of the other.
  • PBS NewsHour is pretty good for the most part.
  • *By change, I mean filter. Given the same information. Two completely logical people with different views can come up with different but still logically sound opinions.
    Wyatt beat me to the point I wanted to make. Knowing the perspective matters more then facts in many cases because the reporter is a flawed observer.
    So you watch two different news programs. Both of them state the same exact facts. One has one opinion. The other has the complete opposite opinion, but both had the exact same facts. Both news programs are equally good.

    Who cares what the opinion of some journalist is? If you are intelligent, you can separate the factual part from the opinion part. Then you can form, or reform, your opinion based on the facts. It doesn't matter how crazy the opinion of the journalism is if the facts are correct, because you shouldn't be influenced by the opinions of journalists.
  • edited January 2011
    Well one, it's impossible to have ALL of the facts of a story. There is always some sort of filter you are seeing the facts through whether you are involved, reporting or watching a report of an incident.

    How a story is reported will color your opinion of the facts regardless of how smart and savvy you are.
    Post edited by Cremlian on
  • If you are intelligent, you can separate the factual part from the opinion part.
    No, no you really can't. Not when the perspective of the reporter shapes the facts themselves. The presentation of those facts also greatly colors the way those facts are interpreted. This is entirely intentional. We've known for a very very very very very long time that the way your present the same information radically changes the take-home message. There's more to communication than just the words that are used and the specific facts which are spoken.
    Facts don't often change perspective.
    Right. This is the problem. Like, THE problem. Talk to nearly anyone and give them facts from a different perspective which challenge their pre-determined perspective. Tell me how many of them change their perspective based on the introduction of these new facts.

    Here's a hint: nobody. Not even skeptics. Not even guys up in the ivory towers of academia. The smartest men on earth. Find me one who will actually change their perspective based on facts.
  • Here's a hint: nobody. Not even skeptics. Not even guys up in the ivory towers of academia. The smartest men on earth. Find me one who will actually change their perspective based on facts.
    I've changed my perspective based on facts.
  • I've changed my perspective based on facts.
    I think he meant. Will always change their perspective.
  • edited January 2011
    I've changed my perspective based on facts.
    Outlier. :P
    I think he meant. Will always change their perspective.
    This is indeed what I meant. The willingness to change perspective based on facts is extraordinarily rare, even among groups who allege to exhibit such qualities. Further, even people who actually do it will almost never do it for every given perspective they may have. I won't attach a number to it, but from lots of observation, almost every single human being ever has some perspective that they hold to be right irrespective of facts. I don't even need to hit "cogito ergo sum" to observe that.

    EDIT: So, basically, until we can increase the rate at which human beings will change perspective based on facts, the bias in reporting information won't matter. The observer is more flawed than the reporter in almost all cases.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • edited January 2011
    Outlier. :P
    Am I or are you not changing your perspective based on facts? :P
    Post edited by George Patches on
  • Am I or are you not changing your perspective based on facts? :P
    Definitely an outlier. Fox News said so!
  • edited January 2011
    No, no you really can't. Not when the perspective of the reporter shapes the facts themselves. The presentation of those facts also greatly colors the way those facts are interpreted. This is entirely intentional. We've known for a very very very very very long time that the way your present the same information radically changes the take-home message. There's more to communication than just the words that are used and the specific facts which are spoken.
    Yes, this is true. If you are intentionally trying to control the thoughts and opinions of your audience, you can state the exact same facts with different words. You can have two news programs reporting on a murder, for example. Both can report the exact same facts of that murder, the time, the location, the method, the victim's identity, etc. However, due to careful selection of word choice and tone, they can both paint completely different pictures. The vast majority of people will fall victim to this and believe what the news outlet wants them to believe.

    However, if you are an intelligent person, like I hope you are, you will see through this bullshit like the bottom of a KFC take-out bag. First, I hope that you will get your news from sources where you read, rather than video or radio sources, since that allows you to carefully and slowly examine all the words in the story. Second, I hope that you will indeed carefully examine each and every word in that story to extract the factual information and ignore the other information.

    As is a problem very often on this forum and the rest of the Internet, people use very specific words when communicating. One word, or even one punctuation mark, can completely change the meaning of a sentence. People do not read each and every word with the care required, and they fail to comprehend what is being said. If you read carefully and thoughtfully, it won't matter if the reporter wants you to think that the suspect is guilty or not guilty. It won't matter that they want you to think the union or the company are the good guys in a particular labor dispute. You will read the story carefully, extract only the facts, and make your own decision.

    The only problem arises if the source is lying or leaving out critical information. Then even after you extract the facts, you will come to the wrong conclusion.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • or leaving out critical information.
    This is nearly EVERY story though.
  • edited January 2011
    Second, I hope that you will indeed carefully examine each and every word in that story to extract the factual information and ignore the other information.
    As you say, that only works if the information is a completely faithful reproduction of what actually transpired, and that also assumes that you actually have the knowledge base to meaningfully interpret all the relevant information.

    The berry argument we had at the shore is a great example. We read about "false berries" and assumed that meant that there are berries and not berries. As Nuri later explained to me, and I subsequently read on my own, that is not the case; a "false berry" is in fact a type of berry. Yet, the information we read was completely factually correct.

    The problem with this:
    leaving out critical information
    is that almost nobody actually has the knowledge base to understand what is or is not critical information for every single given topic. This is why we have specialists who communicate with each other; we each know what is or is not missing from a particular piece of knowledge. We didn't have any reason to suspect that a "false berry" was actually still a berry, because none of us were botanists who were familiar with the abnormalities of plant nomenclature.

    Some people think that they can have a complete perspective, and I blame widespread access to the web for this misconception. Just because you can read lots of information doesn't mean you have any idea how to actually meaningfully interpret said information.

    EDIT: Also, not all wording differences are actually significant. This is another common tactic in spinning information; you use different words that mean the exact same thing as an argument which was previously rejected, and attempt to pass it off as novel.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • Yes, it is true that nobody will be able to fully comprehend every detail of a news story that falls outside of their area of expertise. It is also true that publishing every single fact for even the most trivial story will be endless.

    However, if you know your audience, it is actually quite easy to select only the facts which have consequences for that audience, and present them in a comprehensible and fully correct fashion. For example, take the recent news about Firesheep. Firesheep is not the most complex technology topic out there, but fully understanding how it works is definitely out of reach for almost all people. Despite that complexity, I can, in just a few sentences, provide all of the information a layman needs to know about Firesheep.

    If you are using a computer on an untrusted or public network, such as a wireless access point in the park or coffee shop, then other people on that network can spy on you. If you are connected to such a network, and you login to any web site, users can trivially steal your accounts. The only way to protect yourself is to only login to websites while using public networks if the secure lock icon appears in the browser location bar, or if you are using VPN software, like that which employers usually put on their laptops.

    See? Good news is not hard, and is definitely possible. It's also incredibly boring and will not make any money. That's why it won't ever exist. One idea I thought of was to make it mandatory for all news to be non-profit. If you want profit, you can't use the word news to describe yourself. It's commercial speech, so it's totally constitutional to make such a regulation, just like we regulate the word juice to only beverages that are actually 100% fruit. That's why Kool-Aid and Hi-C can't call themselves juice.
  • needs to know
    This is a hilarious statement coming from you.

    How do you determine who "needs to know" what information? There are countless consumer watchdog agencies pushing to have all sorts of information reported to the public, including completely irrelevant information that muddles the issue and can potentially lead to people making uneducated decisions.

    Controlling the dissemination of information is critical to true understanding, but every time that happens, people get their panties in a twist about it.
  • How do you determine who "needs to know" what information?
    Because you know you audience. Different news outlets have different audiences. If you don't know your audience, GTFO. If you do know your audience, then you just simply examine what the consequences are for that audience. I do it for GeekNights all the time.
  • If you do know your audience, then you just simply examine what the consequences are for that audience. I do it for GeekNights all the time.
    So where's our food and zombie episodes, eh? ^_~
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