›
This forum is in permanent archive mode. Our new active community can be found here.

Are the Uprisings in the Middle East are a Result of US Led Invasions?

DevilUknowDevilUknow
edited February 2011 in Flamewars
When your kids and grand kids are in school learning about The Middle Eastern Uprisings of 2011, which absurdly reductionist tl:dr do you think they'll more likely be taught:

1. The uprisings that are in the process of toppling (or at least disturbing the shit of) middle eastern dictators are the end result of the the concerted efforts of the west, led primarily by the US, to spread freedom the the Middle East through both peaceful and non-peaceful means.

2. The uprisings were spontaneous and home grown and had nothing to do with the west.

Naturally, both have little resemblance to reality but the stories you are told in history class rarely do.

Bonus Question: do you think Twitter or Facebook will be called out specifically in either narratives?
«1

Comments

  • Victor FrostVictor Frost
    edited February 2011
    Neither 1 nor 2 because, unlike most historical accounts in history books today, these uprisings were highly reported on by, not just traditional media, but by the people there in the middle of the action. Also, with even a modest projection of our current technology going forward, one can very easily imagine that history books of the future will not be a linear narrative, but a portal through which students, and even casual readers, can explore topics and events through a fascinating multimedia landscape, allowing them to gain a deeper insight into the truth, not just the facts, of their history. Their books will no longer be a telling of what happened, but a method for those who read it to create their own understandings of the events that shaped their world.

    Bonus Question: Yes.
    Post edited by Victor Frost on
  • Luke BurrageLuke Burrage
    Yeah, I think when my kids and grandkids are are in school, the entire process of education will be different.

    Did you see the video of the computer inside Minecraft? Well just think about being able to explore the inside of not just computers but everything else from a first person, exploratory point of view. Maths could be taught in the same way. I never understood how a torus could be "flat" from the perspective of an observer on the surface until I played Mario Galaxy and ran around a torus!

    History will be the same way. Someone will organize all the twitter messages and facebook messages so they replay in real time as you watch Al Jazeera. There has already been similar things done with 9/11 and replaying of the news TV shows.

    So now imagine that, but you can also drop into a virtual recreation of the protests in Cairo, and watch the geeks setting up their tents and connecting to the internet via hacked together networks. And then you can go inside a Minecraft-like physical recreation of their networks. And from there go inside a Minecraft-like recreation of each computer in their network.

    I think, when you reach that level of information and data availability, it will be hard for any one person or entity to decide which way to teach a certain part of modern history. Personally, I think if the US wanted democracy, it would attach "You gotta be democratic" orders to all its foreign military aid. But it doesn't. That is very clear now.
  • GreatTeacherMacRossGreatTeacherMacRoss
    If we have learned ANYTHING from the disastrous little adventure the idiot king sent our country on about a decade ago, it's that you let the middle east sort it's own shit out. EVERY TIME we get involved, it ends badly. Iran. Israel/Palestine. Iraq. Afghanistan. We need to stay WAY the fuck away from anything political until the entire area chills out and gets their governments back in order. If Libiya and Baharain go to shit, let their neighboring countries or anyone but Iran help. We need to stay the fuck out of it.
  • TorontoKevTorontoKev
    Invasion, but not of force. Invasion of ideas, and the whiff of potential that was not previously seen so clearly, IMHO.
  • Dr. TimoDr. Timo
    EVERY TIME we get involved, it ends badly. Iran.
    But that is true only in a generalized way, certain specific highly exclusive groups of people amass vast fortunes every time the US "gets involved". This powerful elite has just a better PR department than their Egyptian / Libyan counterparts.
  • ThaedThaed
    If we have learned ANYTHING from the disastrous little adventure the idiot king sent our country on about a decade ago, it's that you let the middle east sort it's own shit out. EVERY TIME we get involved, it ends badly. Iran. Israel/Palestine. Iraq. Afghanistan. We need to stay WAY the fuck away from anything political until the entire area chills out and gets their governments back in order. If Libiya and Baharain go to shit, let their neighboring countries or anyone but Iran help. We need to stay the fuck out of it.
    Your language is so passionate, it makes me not want to debate you. And yet, I must. Afghanistan was absolutely necessary. Afghanistan was harboring the folks that attacked the U.S. Mainland. That cannot stand. Gore would have taken us there too. Iraq, at the time, I thought was a tremendous mistake. Now, I'm not entirely sure. I can tell you that future generations may be kinder to GWB than you.
  • JasonJason
    Iraq was entirely wrong. Our presence there was based on hubris, "America fuck yeah"-itude, bad information, and poor financial planning.
  • RymRym
    Afghanistan was absolutely necessary.
    I agree, but more from a humanitarian position. The Afghan people by and large welcomed us as liberators, and the entire world was either on our side or publicly neutral. Had we limited our wars of occupation to just Afghanistan, and focused massive resources on security and infrastructure-building, we could have retained the goodwill of the world while simultaneously building, in the long term, a relatively peaceful Afghanistan.

    The current revolutions throughout the region, had we not generated the enormous mistrust and ill-will we did through needlessly invading Iraq, would likely have been much more positively-aligned with our interests. As it stands, the US taking a strong stance in favor of the revolutionaries would likely hurt their causes more than help them.
  • gomidoggomidog
    The Soviet Union did not westernize because of tanks, it did so because its kids wanted blue jeans and rock music. The middle east is totally the same thing, but with freedom and internets.
  • AprecheApreche
  • TheWhaleSharkTheWhaleShark
    This Libya business is sickening. How fucking evil do you have to be to order your troops to bomb protesters?
    If we have learned ANYTHING from the disastrous little adventure the idiot king sent our country on about a decade ago, it's that you let the middle east sort it's own shit out. EVERY TIME we get involved, it ends badly. Iran. Israel/Palestine. Iraq. Afghanistan. We need to stay WAY the fuck away from anything political until the entire area chills out and gets their governments back in order. If Libiya and Baharain go to shit, let their neighboring countries or anyone but Iran help. We need to stay the fuck out of it.
    I really do want to get out of the Middle East, as it's a huge resource drain. However, right now, many people in that region have stuff we need, and it would hurt us more to back out of the region entirely.

    Then, of course, there's the thing that Scott has talked about before - and with which I agree: if there's big bad shit happening somewhere in the world, and you have the power to stop it, shouldn't you?

    It's a complex question. I don't want us to meddle in other people's business, but what the fuck do you do in, say, Egypt's case? Many protesters wanted the US to help more. How do you ignore something like that?
    Now, I'm not entirely sure.
    Why, might I ask? Do you think the recent unrest is a case of dominoes falling after the "liberation" of Iraq? Is there something else?
  • RymRym
    This Libya business is sickening. How fucking evil do you have to be to order your troops to bomb protesters?
    But at the same time, the fact that there are pilots and bomber crews who, together, were willing to say "fuck this" and bail on the whole operation, gives me hope.
  • TheWhaleSharkTheWhaleShark
    edited February 2011
    This Libya business is sickening. How fucking evil do you have to be to order your troops to bomb protesters?
    But at the same time, the fact that there are pilots and bomber crews who, together, were willing to say "fuck this" and bail on the whole operation, gives me hope.
    Yes, a little. I just wish more of them would do it. But this could still come out alright. It will get worse, I think, before it gets better.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • DevilUknowDevilUknow
    Yeah, I think when my kids and grandkids are are in school, the entire process of education will be different.
    I also hope that the educational system will be "fixed" by the time my grandkids are in school but the trends in public education seem to be going in the opposite direction; more simplification, more memorizing of factoids, less context, less comprehension.

    On top of this, it is my understanding that just about every metric of education indicates that that people are becoming less proficient in just about everything other than the practical application of facts and skills; ie the educational system values accountants (a catch all term I am using to describe people who apply technical knowledge to accomplish tasks provided to them by an overseer, no offense to any bean counts in the FRC :) ) over philosophers (in the classic sense of loving knowledge and the desire to understand the world).

    I'm not a teacher however and I would totally welcome someone who knows more than me to prove me wrong.
  • HungryJoeHungryJoe
    Afghanistan was absolutely necessary. Afghanistan was harboring the folks that attacked the U.S. Mainland. That cannot stand.
    If that's your policy, why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia or Pakistan?
  • Linkigi(Link-ee-jee)Linkigi(Link-ee-jee)
    edited February 2011
    Afghanistan was absolutely necessary. Afghanistan was harboring the folks that attacked the U.S. Mainland. That cannot stand.
    If that's your policy, why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia or Pakistan?
    Saudi Arabia because oil.
    Pakistan because nukes.
    Post edited by Linkigi(Link-ee-jee) on
  • HungryJoeHungryJoe
    edited February 2011
    Afghanistan was absolutely necessary. Afghanistan was harboring the folks that attacked the U.S. Mainland. That cannot stand.
    If that's your policy, why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia or Pakistan?
    Saudi Arabia because oil.
    Pakistan because nukes.
    Yes, well; look at what he wrote. He didn't write, "That cannot stand, unless of course the current regime gives us a steady supply of something we want or if they have scary weapons." What I want to hear is how, based on that "this (harboring "the folks that attacked us") cannot stand policy"' we didn't go to both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • WindUpBirdWindUpBird
    Or Yemen.
  • HungryJoeHungryJoe
    edited February 2011
    Afghanistan was absolutely necessary. Afghanistan was harboring the folks that attacked the U.S. Mainland. Actually, now that I think about it, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan did much more to harbor the folks that attacked the U.S. Mainland than Afghanistan ever did, but Pakistan has scary weapons, and Saudi Arabia, while it has a very oppressive regime, keeps us steadily supplied with oil. So instead we went to Iraq, a former ally, but whose leader was about to nationalize his oil, making us worried that we weren't going to be able to get our share. That cannot stand. Gore would have taken us there too, but he most likely wouldn't have gotten us involved in Iraq, because he wasn't a total idiot. So, we could have saved trillions of dollars and not be in the economic mess we're in now. Oh yeah, if Gore went to war, he most likely wouldn't have allowed a tax cut in a time of war, which is so stupid and unprecedented that it has never been done before, until the reign of the the idiot king. Iraq, at the time, I thought was a tremendous mistake. Now, I'm not entirely sure. I can tell you that future generations may be kinder to GWB than you. That's because Republicans will have cut education funding so much by then that future generations will be mostly home-schooled or church-schooled and so will believe what Republicans want them to believe, lacking any capacity at all to think for themselves.
    FTFY
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • ThaedThaed
    Oh please.
  • Luke BurrageLuke Burrage
    image
  • HungryJoeHungryJoe
    Oh please.
    Problem? U jelly?
  • ThaedThaed
    Joe, if you have such strong evidence as to where the terrorists are hiding, I strongly suggest you contact the State Department. Evidently, they could use your help. Otherwise, if any of your dire predictions were true, then we would be dead, in a state of hyper-inflation, living in a theocracy or all of the above. Since I'm breathing at the moment, still an atheist and not in jail and since things actually seem to be getting better despite your negativity, I would submit that things are never as bad as you say they are.
  • HungryJoeHungryJoe
    edited February 2011
    Joe, if you have such strong evidence as to where the terrorists are hiding, I strongly suggest you contact the State Department. Evidently, they could use your help.
    All they have to do is read CNN or the 9/11 Commission report to find that all except one of the "folks who attacked the U.S. Mainland" were from Saudi Arabia. But you haven't answered the question: If harboring the "folks" cannot stand, why aren't we in Pakistan now?
    Otherwise, if any of your dire predictions were true, then we would be dead, in a state of hyper-inflation, living in a theocracy or all of the above. Since I'm breathing at the moment, still an atheist and not in jail and since things actually seem to be getting better despite your negativity, I would submit that things are never as bad as you say they are.
    I'm not making predictions. However, I think anyone can see that from recent current events, the U.S. is trending a lot more towards theocracy and hyper-inflation than towards a technological playground/wonderland filled with high speed rail and flying cars.
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • JasonJason
    Joe, are you really proposing full-scale military actions against Cuba, Lybia, Syria, Sudan, North Korea, and Iran? Because those are all "rogue states" that we consider to be harboring dangerous enemies of the state. Why don't we all just don brown uniforms and march across the globe? Heil!
  • TheWhaleSharkTheWhaleShark
    Why don't we all just don brown uniforms and march across the globe? Heil!
    Are they snazzy uniforms?
  • JasonJason
    image
  • HungryJoeHungryJoe
    edited February 2011
    Joe, are you really proposing full-scale military actions against Cuba, Lybia, Syria, Sudan, North Korea, and Iran? Because those are all "rogue states" that we consider to be harboring dangerous enemies of the state. Why don't we all just don brown uniforms and march across the globe? Heil!
    Thaed is the one proposing those things. Thaed proposed the policy that "harboring the folks that attacked the U.S. Mainland cannot stand" to justify invading Afghanistan. I'm just saying that, if this is your policy, then there are other countries that need invading.

    I'm not in favor of invading anyone, except maybe Canada. Those bastards need to be taught a lesson.
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • Linkigi(Link-ee-jee)Linkigi(Link-ee-jee)
    Why don't we all just don brown uniforms and march across the globe? Heil!
    Are they snazzy uniforms?
    They have the snazziest armbands you'll ever find.
  • HungryJoeHungryJoe
    Why don't we all just don brown uniforms and march across the globe? Heil!
    Are they snazzy uniforms?
    They have the snazziest armbands you'll ever find.
    That's one thing you have to say about facists - they have a very good fashion sense.
Sign In or Register to comment.