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Read about this, sadly. A dark secret from a female PAX enforcer

edited October 2012 in Conventions
I've heard great things on Geek Knights about PAX and its enforcers, but as we know, nothing is 100%.

Sexual Harassment and Enforcers
Post edited by VichusSmith on
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Comments

  • Sounds grim, who's Tango?
  • He sounds like a complete douche and there's no excusing that sort of manipulation, but man, she sounds severely damaged herself and handled the scenario... not great.

    While Tango is 100% responsible for being a douche, motherfucker should have been thrown out after unsolicited advance number two.

    Ambiguity in these situations looks a lot like flirting to the inexperienced (or inappropriately aggressive) young dude.

  • Any group of people can have bad people in it. Whether the group, or its leaders, are at fault is a separate discussion. To its credit, PAX did get rid of this dude. I imagine he is banned from all PAXes. Since he seems to have been big in the Enforcer community, pretty sure that the ban will stick since he will be easily recognized.

    Also, don't take what I'm about to say as blaming the victim, take it as future advice. Reading that story, the girl appropriately said no many times, and the dude didn't take no for an answer. Whether you are a guy or girl, if you tell someone no, even if it's just to kissing or whatever, and they do not listen to your no, just call the police immediately. Don't give a second chance. If they see you on the phone with 911 they are likely to realize they are fucking up big time. If they snap out of it and leave, the police are on their way.
  • Yep. I don't think it's blaming the victim to say "Here's where she could have done things differently and had a safer outcome, and for future reference I think this is what people should take from this."

    Dude is a fuck, regardless.
  • I am filled with anger and feels.
  • I am filled with anger and feels.
    Creepers like that just need a good old fashioned Buzz Aldrining.

  • I know I practically have Devil's Advocate stamped on my forehead, but out of context, the cat thing does seem like playful flirting. If I leaned in to kiss a girl and she held her somewhat perplexed house cat up between us, I'd probably assume that was a play at being coy unless she looked like a deer in headlights behind her cat.

    All of the tone of the story is coming from her, and his side isn't represented, and she alludes to having been traumatized in previous experiences, which might color her perceptions of the whole thing.

    All that said, even stripped of atmosphere, the bare facts do sound pretty gross especially when he declares he'll be sleeping naked in her bed.

    I think my point is what I already said: don't be ambiguous. Make your "no" a very clear no, not a cat in the face, and if the "no" is disregarded, do what Rubin said. That'll make it as unambiguous as it can possibly be.
  • The dude is definitely a creep, but I will note that the cat thing seems weird and kind of aloof. I feel like the proper thing to do in any situation like that is to just say, "Look, I'm not comfortable with this," and then call the police if the person persists.
  • edited October 2012
    I am filled with anger and feels.
    Creepers like that just need a good old fashioned Buzz Aldrining.
    YES. I want to find this person and punch him in the dick. RIGHT. IN. THE. DICK.

    Seriously, guys like this give our demographic a bad name. More seriously, guys like this need to be stopped (and punched in the dick).
    Post edited by Victor Frost on
  • Despite that guy being a fucking douche, I'm not sure why she didn't just tell him to leave.
  • Despite that guy being a fucking douche, I'm not sure why she didn't just tell him to leave.
    Well, she hints at a history of abuse. Things like that tend to compromise your ability to be assertive in the manner this sort of situation demands.

  • Sounds grim, who's Tango?
    The names could very well have been changed.
  • I am filled with anger and feels.
    Creepers like that just need a good old fashioned Buzz Aldrining.
    YES. I want to find this person and punch him in the dick. RIGHT. IN. THE. DICK.

    Seriously, guys like this give our demographic a bad name. More seriously, guys like this need to be stopped (and punched in the dick).
    I'm well aware that it's an antiquated relic of a gender biased society, but stories about things like that happening to ladies make my fists itch.

  • edited October 2012
    Sounds grim, who's Tango?
    The names could very well have been changed.
    Former head of one of the departments as she said. He used to post on the PAX forums with the instructions related to costume weaponry I think? I know I had seen him around before. "Tango" is his handle though.
    Post edited by Anthony Heman on
  • Any group of people can have bad people in it. Whether the group, or its leaders, are at fault is a separate discussion. To its credit, PAX did get rid of this dude. I imagine he is banned from all PAXes. Since he seems to have been big in the Enforcer community, pretty sure that the ban will stick since he will be easily recognized.

    Also, don't take what I'm about to say as blaming the victim, take it as future advice. Reading that story, the girl appropriately said no many times, and the dude didn't take no for an answer. Whether you are a guy or girl, if you tell someone no, even if it's just to kissing or whatever, and they do not listen to your no, just call the police immediately. Don't give a second chance. If they see you on the phone with 911 they are likely to realize they are fucking up big time. If they snap out of it and leave, the police are on their way.
    I think what happens to all of us from time to time, whether we're watching fiction or reading about real situations, we always point out the logical route, but not everyone sees the correct exit when they're in the situation.

  • edited October 2012
    Despite that guy being a fucking douche, I'm not sure why she didn't just tell him to leave.
    Well, she hints at a history of abuse. Things like that tend to compromise your ability to be assertive in the manner this sort of situation demands.
    One day there will be robot body guards.
    I think what happens to all of us from time to time, whether we're watching fiction or reading about real situations, we always point out the logical route, but not everyone sees the correct exit when they're in the situation.
    Agreed. Also I would argue most people aren't inclined to call the police in a situation like this even if it is the right thing to do.
    Post edited by MATATAT on
  • Sounds grim, who's Tango?
    The names could very well have been changed.
    Former head of one of the departments as she said. He used to post on the PAX forums with the instructions related to costume weaponry I think? I know I had seen him around before. "Tango" is his handle though.
    She mentions his name right at the top as "Simon Edwards."

  • Despite that guy being a fucking douche, I'm not sure why she didn't just tell him to leave.
    Well, she hints at a history of abuse. Things like that tend to compromise your ability to be assertive in the manner this sort of situation demands.
    She didn't just hint at it; she flat out said it. When you go through the kind of abuse that makes you doubt all of your own instincts and have people telling you that you shouldn't feel the way you do, it really fucks with your ability to stand up for your feelings and say no to people.

    It's not just the abuse though; I seem to remember hearing or reading that most people have trouble saying no to the same thing 3 times. Add to that someone who knows how to manipulate people into feeling guilty because they have "agreed" to something even when they actually haven't, and you've got a critical mixture of douchebaggery.
  • Flirting is a dangerous thing for a guy, to be fair. Unless you go the route that some college campuses went in the 90s with full literal consent for every single action taken in a dating scenario ("May I place my hand on your shoulder?" "May I unbutton your top button?"), its dangerous to be the adventurous one (just relatively) in a courtship situation. If reciprocated, you're golden. If not, you're a creeper, even if the motions are identical, and an ambiguous, timid "no" is very very similar to a coy, playful "no."

    I guess the only thing to be done is for guys (and girls) everywhere to treat any sort of "no", coy or otherwise, as a hard stop.

    That's never gonna happen.

    And if she did the silly cat thing, she may have done other things that she's leaving out of her account that made this dude think she was being coy rather than being too afraid to authoritatively and appropriately say "Look, no, I don't want to do this. Please leave."

    A Google search shows that this dude's name is already all over the internet. Twitter, tumblr, etc, and his side of things doesn't appear to be in evidence yet.

    Guys, like it or not, are often expected to be the forward ones. A preponderance of girls will move on in the absence of decisive moves forward by any given guy. You can call gender roles archaic but man, men and women process things in generally archetypal ways.

    So, society kinda programs and sets guys up to be the solicitors, and then punishes them if they have bad intuition. The solution? Paperwork, I guess.

    Now, assuming the account is complete, dude is a fucking weirdo and was highly inappropriate, but we don't know if he was following cues left unaccounted in this story.

    None of this is in defense of manipulation or psychosexual abuse, but I'm not sure it's time to nail this guy to the cross he's on yet, which is something the internet LOVES to do.

    If there's no response from this dude in a coupla days, well then, that will look pretty bad.
  • RymRym
    edited October 2012
    I've known dudes like that. I've known ladies who ended up dating dudes like that. It's a careful, particular sort of manipulation that is highly effective, especially against women with a relatively low self-esteem.

    In my experience, usually a third party needs to cause a breakup. (I've literally and intentionally done just this many times in my life, starting in middle school when I recognized it for what it was).

    I err on believing her story over Tango's (if it is ever presented) simply for the fact that what she describes is almost a textbook case of this phenomena. The scenario plays out almost note-for-note over and over. I could probably write a bot that emulated the behavior perfectly at this point.
    Post edited by Rym on
  • edited October 2012
    muppet I think the counterpoint to that is summed up rather well by this quote.

    “Most men fear getting laughed at or humiliated by a romantic prospect while most women fear rape and death.”

    - Gavin de Becker

    Many of the things culture tells us guys is "assertive" really is just "creepy" pretty much any way you slice it. Its cause we have this screwed up idea that consent is a lack of no rather than an enthusiastic yes. Personally I don't see why you can't get both ask for explicit consent and still be assertive; just don't ask in a deflective way. Be all like.

    "Hello, woman! As a stereotypically alpha hetero male, I would like to touch the shit out of your breast at this moment. Is this a thing you are cool with yes/no."
    Post edited by open_sketchbook on
  • Yeah, it's really not hard to just go slow. Or say "Hey, I want to go slow. I don't want to rush things."

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand that will probably not be misinterpreted as lack of interest if a dude says that.
  • muppet I think the counterpoint to that is summed up rather well by this quote.

    “Most men fear getting laughed at or humiliated by a romantic prospect while most women fear rape and death.”

    - Gavin de Becker
    Do most women really fear rape and death? I mean, in the abstract, sure, but as often as men fear humiliation?

    I seriously doubt it.

    I'm not talking about fairness, here, I'm talking about temperance and moderation and avoiding knee-jerk reactions.

    Rym - Been there, done that. It's not an easy thing to pull off as none of the parties involved are very receptive, not even in their own best interest, and it can backfire in a spectacular way.
  • Do most women really fear rape and death? I mean, in the abstract, sure, but as often as men fear humiliation?

    I seriously doubt it.
    Someone close to me was raped.

    I don't.
  • I'd ease up a bit on that doubt if I were you, Muppet.
  • muppet I think the counterpoint to that is summed up rather well by this quote.

    “Most men fear getting laughed at or humiliated by a romantic prospect while most women fear rape and death.”

    - Gavin de Becker
    Do most women really fear rape and death? I mean, in the abstract, sure, but as often as men fear humiliation?

    I seriously doubt it.
    Ask some of the women around you if they were worried about rape during their dating careers. You'll probably be surprised at how many women actually are.

    I know all of my wife's friends (and my friends who are female) list that as a concern.

  • Tango is persona non grata at Enforcer events now. As for muppet's "flirting is hard" point, I've been in situations with girls I've liked who did not reciprocate advances, and you know what I did? I stopped. While I can't tell (just from one post) whether Tango was clueless or malicious, his actions seem to repeat themselves. For that reason, it would be best for Enforcers to stop associating with him.

    Now, if it comes to light that he was maliciously targeting women and sexually harassing them (which may be the case. I don't have all the info) then the authorities need to get involved and charges should be pressed against him.
  • Most of the girls I know at RIT are afraid of rape to some extent because of RIT's demographic and creepy student base.

    Yes, it is a common, regular fear.
  • Do most women really fear rape and death? I mean, in the abstract, sure, but as often as men fear humiliation?

    I seriously doubt it.
    Someone close to me was raped.

    I don't.
    This is a completely meaningless post in the context of the discussion. Of course someone who was raped is going to be traumatized. The people close to that person will be traumatized. They will all fear rape more than the norm, whatever the norm is.

    Your post is very dramatic but I don't know that it demonstrates that women fear rape as often as mean fear humiliation. I'm not even sure how it's not almost entirely a non sequitur in this thread, at the risk of sounding insensitive.

    Men don't just fear humiliation, either. More like men fear prosecution. Rape doesn't have to be violent or even leave much physical evidence, it can be as simple as a lack of consent, and that lack of consent may not even have been correctly or appropriately communicated, or may have been deliberately not communicated or miscommunicated. The innocent, non-rapist guy is taking on basically all of the risk in that realm. And then guilty or not his name can also be all over the internet.

    This is an incredibly emotionally charged issue, but it can still be discussed reasonably. I think you need a lot more than those two sentences to have a coherent point.
  • Also, any "no" is a "full-stop no." The word "no" is not a jokey, flirty word. I mean, if someone uses it as such and I stop and mess up the flow of the moment, whatever; I'm not taking chances on something as crucial as consent for the sake of romance.
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