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Racial profiling or not?

edited July 2009 in Politics
Is this racial profiling? If you side with the police, should the homeowner be excused to a certain degree due to his knowledge of a historical context of profiling?
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  • Broken link.
  • Doh! I'll post a fix in a second.
  • edited July 2009
    Fixed link. That's what I get for using Windows Explorer when I normally use Firefox. I also fixed the link above.
    Post edited by Kilarney on
  • First of all, some woman reported it. The police didn't just see some black guys at a nice house and decided to go arrest them. They were responding to a call about a possible break in... What were they supposed to do? I'm not an expert, but wouldn't they be in more trouble if they didn't respond to it and it actually was a break in?

    Second of all, from what I've gathered from the article, he was arrested for being "difficult" and whatnot, not for actually being African American and breaking in to his own house. Now I wasn't there (obviously) but it seems that the home owner gave the cops trouble because he automatically assumed racial profiling. If I were in his situation, I would have produced the correct IDs and stuff right away, proven them wrong, and then complained.

    However, unless he physically hurt them or threatened them or something, I don't think he should have been arrested for complaining about it, no matter how annoying.

    On another note, I go to Georgia Tech, and our campus has been having a lot of armed robberies lately. A couple of students have even gotten shot. All suspects were described as tall African American males. I'm sorry if I offend anyone by saying this, but if I'm walking alone at night/early morning (which is hypothetical because I would never really do this), and I see someone fitting that description following me, I'm going to freak out and run or call the cops or something.
  • Imagine that the police had responded to a report of two white males breaking into a house and arrested one of them. This would not be news.
  • edited July 2009
    Imagine that the police had responded to a report of two white males breaking into a house and arrested one of them. This would not be news.
    What if the white guys they arrested lived at that house, and they also happened to be the nation's pre-eminent black scholars? (Ignore the logical contradiction, please.)
    Post edited by Funfetus on
  • edited July 2009
    It's also important to keep in mind that he wasn't arrested for breaking into his house.

    I'd be upset if the police did NOT respond to such a call if it involved my house. I'd also expect them to establish the identity of whomever was in the house, even if it was me.

    Breaking down a door is suspicious no matter what race you are. The reason we have police is to investigate those very types of complaints.

    IMHO, this guy has been stuck in the academic world for too long.
    Post edited by Kilarney on
  • edited July 2009
    Ogletree said Gates gave the officer his driver's license and Harvard identification after being asked to prove he was a Harvard professor and lived at the home, but became upset when the officer continued to question him.

    Fuck these cops.
    Police say he refused to come outside to speak with an officer, who told him he was investigating a report of a break-in.
    initially refused to show the officer his identification, but then gave him a Harvard University ID card, according to police.
    He asked for it, you never play the smart ass with the cops, especially if they are there to help.
    Post edited by Andrew on
  • Ogletree said Gates gave the officer his driver's license and Harvard identification after being asked to prove he was a Harvard professor and lived at the home, but became upset when the officer continued to question him.

    Fuck these cops.
    The house is owned by Harvard. Seems to me to be the quickest and least intrusive way of establishing his legitimacy in the house.

    I'm sure Gates mentioned that he was a Harvard professor when asked why he was in the house. Gee... the police wanted to establish the truthfulness of the claim. What jerks.
  • It's obvious the cops were just trying to get him for something after realizing that there was no burglary, so they arrested him on shaky charges because they had screwed up.
  • I see someone fitting that description following me, I'm going to freak out and run or call the cops or something.
    Yes, because freaking out is so the answer. Seriously, your best bet would be to NOT panic and find a way to get into view/earshot of another bystander. I would hate to be a tall black student at your school.

    As for this situation, I think Gates could have handled himself better by just showing the officers his various IDs and tell them to leave his residence. However, Gates is a child of the Civil Rights Movement so he probably has certain prejudices against the police, so he probably provoked the cops to be angry.

    The cops should have just left after they properly identified Gates.
  • edited July 2009
    It's obvious the cops were just trying to get him forsomethingafter realizing that there was no burglary, so they arrested him on shaky charges because they had screwed up.
    What had they screwed up? They were investigating a report of a burglary at that moment. They didn't make the 911 call up. Why does the fact that there was no actual burglary mean that the cops "screwed up?" That's what investigations are for. It's an appropriate function of the police.

    The charges have been dropped, which I think is fine. The guy lost his cool and was a jerk, but I can see exercising prosecutorial discretion on this one.
    Post edited by Kilarney on
  • However, Gates is a child of the Civil Rights Movement so he probably has certain prejudices against the police, so he probably provoked the cops to be angry.
    That's the irony here.
  • Ogletree said Gates gave the officer his driver's license and Harvard identification after being asked to prove he was a Harvard professor and lived at the home, but became upset when the officer continued to question him.
    From what I can tell, the article says he didn't give the police his ID, but eventually presented his not-state-issued Harvard ID.
    Gates — the director of Harvard's W.E.B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research — initially refused to show the officer his identification, but then gave him a Harvard University ID card, according to police.
    Sorry man, but if a cop shows up at my house and asks for ID, I'd probably be miffed, but I wouldn't flat out refuse, and I would probably have the sense to hand him a state-issued ID. Again, I'm sure he (rightfully) has prejudice against police given his upbringing, but his response was unwise, at best.
  • Sorry man, but if a cop shows up at my house and asks for ID, I'd probably be miffed, but I wouldn't flat out refuse, and I would probably have the sense to hand him a state-issued ID. Again, I'm sure he (rightfully) has prejudice against police given his upbringing, but his response was unwise, at best.
    Yes, that was the wrong response. He should have just given the cops his ID straight away. But, according to the article, he evidently did give them his driver's license at some point. The whole situation should have ended there, but these assholes had to prove a point.

    Full disclosure: I fucking hate cops. I know better than that, but I can't help it. I've been mistreated by cops far too much to even-keeled about this stuff. My pulse is going crazy just reading this thread.

    When I was a kid, I was a punk rocker -- mohawk, piercings, studs, leather, dyed hair, etc. For this, I got harassed constantly. I got rolled up on for walking home from a movie at 4 in the afternoon, and slammed down on the hood of a cop car, my arms cranked up behind my back, and accused of stealing bikes. I've had cops just pull up beside me and get out with their guns pointed at me. I've been "detained" twice within 4 minutes by two separate cops in my own apartment complex. I've had cops point guns at me 3 separate times, I've been handcuffed 3 times, and I've been put in the back of a car twice, and I've never been arrested. Because I was never doing anything wrong, and I had the sense to act like a scared little bitch, because I know these motherfuckers can kill me and get away with it.

    Despite all that, I really feel these cops are clearly in the wrong. I'm with Speckospock:
    It's obvious the cops were just trying to get him forsomethingafter realizing that there was no burglary, so they arrested him on shaky charges because they had screwed up.
    Anyway. Here's a funny story: About 7 or 8 years ago, I was renting a room in a house with a few other guys. I work nights, so I was asleep in my room at about 11am on a weekday. I woke up as I gradually became aware that someone was talking to me. There was a female cop in my room, pointing her gun at me, and saying something. I took out my earplugs (gotta wear earplugs when you live in a busy house and sleep days), and she was saying "What's the address here?" I had think a moment -- I was half-asleep, and I'd only lived there a month or two. You'd probably expect to be snapped to attention pretty quickly by a gun in your face, but for a few moments, I wasn't even sure it wasn't a dream.
    "Do you have any weapons in the room?"
    "No."
    "How many people live here?"
    "Five, I think."
    "Get that blanket off".
    "No, I'm naked".
    Now, if I were fully awake, I'd have known better than this, but what can you do. So she pulls the blanket off, and I'm laying there, face down with my ass out, for what feels like 10 seconds, but was probably only 2 or 3. Then she says "Wrap that blanket around yourself and go out front with your partner." My partner? So I do so, and one of my roommates is sitting on the front porch, another cop standing over him. I'm just thinking "man, what the fuck did you do?" The cop says something about someone called 911. No idea what he was talking about. There was also this chubby teenage girl standing there, inside our front gate. I asked her "So who are YOU?", but she didn't say anything, and to this day, I have no idea what her deal was. The other cop comes back, and asks us where our house keys are. We tell her, she goes and gets them, tries them in the lock, and then they both just leave without another word. Fucking apology would've been nice.

    So my roommate's story is that he was trying to call his girlfriend, whose number started with "9-1", and he accidentally dialed 911, then just hung up. When they sent a car out, like they do, he was in the bathroom, and didn't get out and get the door quickly enough for the cops' liking. This may or may not be the whole story -- we later learned this guy was literally a crackhead.

    Which reminds me of another story -- that same guy went missing for the better part of a week, and showed up absolutely beat to shit, having been assaulted and arrested and put in jail for a few days for what he claims was a false narcotics charge. But like I said, crackhead. Still, he was brutally, brutally beaten. He was suing, and I took a bunch of pictures of his injuries to use in the trial. I probably still have them somewhere.

    Neither of those stories have much to do with the topic at hand, except that maybe a fucking apology would be nice after waking me up with a gun in my face when I'm fucking SLEEPING IN MY OWN BEDROOM, but I think they're interesting stories.
  • edited July 2009
    America home of the free?
    Whoever told you it was your enemy?

    Sounds like a really fucked up place to live in from the above posts.
    I was even thinking of moving to the US recently, my friend moved to Boston and the only reason he's staying is to finish of a post graduate degree - he's triple assured me to stay in Australia and only come over for holidays.
    Post edited by sK0pe on
  • @Funfetus - "You know the score: If you're not cop, you're little people." /obligatory Blade Runner quote.
  • Sounds like a really fucked up place to live in from the above posts.
    Oh yeah, Los Angeles is a really terrible place to live.

    Just for the record, LAPD is notorious for shit like that. None of that stuff surprises me in the slightest, Funfetus.
  • edited July 2009
    What few encounters I have had with the police have all been rather tame. I've never had a problem with the police. The police officer that showed up when I was struck by a professor on campus was incredibly kind and helpful. He was a witness at the trial for the professor that hit me. He not only stated that I was in the cross walk when I was struck and that the cross walk was clearly visible despite it being a rainy evening, but he also made a point of coming up to me after the trial and asked about how I was doing.

    My grandfather and grandmother were both police officers and my grandfather was later elected as the Judge in our town. All the police officers I have encountered (friends of my grandparents, troopers for speeding, etc.) have always been reasonable if not outright friendly. Not all police officers are great guys and the "boys club" mentality combined with the position of authority can produce some terrible situations; it has been my personal experience that the majority of police officers do their job because they care about their communities.
    Post edited by Kate Monster on
  • ...Not all police officers are great guys and the "boys club" mentality combined with the position of authority can produce some terrible situations...
    I know a few cops, boarder patrol, FBI, and Corrections Officers outside of their jobs and I can say about half of them are dicks. I just don't get alone with the personality types that are drawn to those professions.
  • ...Not all police officers are great guys and the "boys club" mentality combined with the position of authority can produce some terrible situations...
    I know a few cops, boarder patrol, FBI, and Corrections Officers outside of their jobs and I can say about half of them are dicks. I just don't get alone with the personality types that are drawn to those professions.
    I would hypothesize that it is the bully mentality, having the power and the right to stick there noses where they don't belong or take their time when they don't feel like it. One of my neighbours reported my house getting broken into one night, I didn't realise anything till the next morning when I saw my house mate's computer stolen (and my electric toothbrush of all things), 2 officers arrived in the morning and then asked me a few very general questions, almost ho-humming. I pointed out where they had made the forced entry and the preserved foot prints. They said they would call in a crime scene investigator, that person didn't show up till 3 days later during which it rained all over the areas where fingerprints would have been left.

    However they're mighty quick to hand out an inflated speeding ticket.
  • However they're mighty quick to hand out an inflated speeding ticket.
    A lot of times they have quotas to meet.
  • However they're mighty quick to hand out an inflated speeding ticket.
    A lot of times they have quotas to meet.
    This is very true. I keep hearing people say that the quota thing is a myth. My uncle is a cop (a nice one!), however, and told me that there is indeed a quota system. They must have X tickets issued per month or whatnot.
  • The quota thing is absolutely a myth in any jurisdiction I have seen. There may be some places out there that still have quotas, but they are a rarity.

    Having said that, if you write NO tickets, you aren't likely to be promoted. But that's just because you're obviously lazy.
  • The quota thing is absolutely a myth in any jurisdiction I have seen. There may be some places out there that still have quotas, but they are a rarity.

    Having said that, if you write NO tickets, you aren't likely to be promoted. But that's just because you're obviously lazy.
    This sounds like a broken system.

    If everybody in your jurisdiction follows the traffic signals appropriately that means you would never be promoted.

    This may be a contributing factor to lowering the speed limit for the sake of lowering the speed limit - the city law enforcers dropped the speed limit from 100km/h to 80km/h for the whole day, every day, while roadworks were being carried out on the freeway I commute on. However, everybody kept on travelling at 100km/h so the police sitting there with their radar guns couldn't do anything as 4 lanes of traffic were all speeding according to the signs.
  • The quota thing is absolutely a myth in any jurisdiction I have seen. There may be some places out there that still have quotas, but they are a rarity. Having said that, if you write NO tickets, you aren't likely to be promoted. But that's just because you're obviously lazy.
    According to an acquaintance of mine that is an officer and knows many troopers, there is an unofficial "quota" particularly in small towns that rely on speeding tickets as a primary revenue source. Some officers go so far as to have personal contests for the largest number of tickets in a month, quarter, or year.
  • JayJay
    edited July 2009
    Chris Rock Youtube Video
    My direct dealings with police officers have been perfectly reasonable. Though parking tickets is another story.

    I got pulled over 2 weeks ago for running a red light around 3am. I had no license on me (forgot it at home) and was clearly in the wrong (the light turned red when I just entered the intersection, was going 10 over the speed limit. ThatÂ’s 10 in KM not Miles I live in Canada). I talked to the police calmly, explained I wasnÂ’t drunk. Was driving my friend home, we were talking, made a bad judgment call about stopping or going through a yellow. They typed up my name in the system and let me go with a warning. I am black and my friend is white, we immediately referenced this skit as soon as the police let us off the hook.

    I was feeling all good about my luck until a week later I got a parking ticket for reasons that are still a mystery to me. (I was parked on the side of a road beside a curb, in a legal parking area, behind the car of a person that lives in the area.) As best I can tell I may have been parked an inch or two further out then I should have been from the curb. But I drive a small Honda, I wouldnÂ’t even be sticking out into the road further then the Vans and SUVs lining the road. I didnÂ’t notice the yellow slip on my windshield until I got on the highway and it got dislodged from under the windshield wiper. I went online to find out what the ticket was for, but apparently since the city workers are on strike (I live in Toronto) the one method they have for figuring out what ticket you got if you lost the ticket is now not available. Also, it is clearly stated drivers are still expected to pay their tickets even though workers are on strike. My only option left is to go to one of the two remaining offices that are open, and likely very busy, too see if I can get a worker to figure out what my ticket was.
    Post edited by Jay on
  • Being a dick to a black person doesn't mean you're racist. Being a dick to a black person because he is black is what makes you a racist. Maybe someone should check the record of the cops that made the arrest to see if they have a history of being dicks in general? Some cops are dicks, and some aren't. That's not really unique to the profession...it's just that cops have the power to interrupt your life, so you notice it. Other types of people may have the same dick:non-dick ratio, but how would you know? Maybe the nice lady at the front desk of the Hilton would kick your ass if she could get away with it. She could be a psychopath. She could be secretly plotting your demise as she hands you your room keys. You don't know.

    It's unfair to characterize all cops by the actions of a few. As with soldiers, the bad occurrences get a LOT of news coverage, and the things that go smoothly get none. This makes them all look like assholes when the reality is that only some of them are.

    That said, if you have personally had a bad history with the police, a dislike of them is totally reasonable. I don't live in LA, and probably never will, so I don't know what their local law enforcement is like. However, not liking the police and being a total dumbass are two different things. Getting in the way of a police officer doing their duty is a good way to get a police officer angry at you, which means they are less likely to treat you charitably.

    I've been arrested once, moved into a wanted guy's former apt, had several car accidents, and been pulled over a few times. Each of these things involved police encounters, and yet the police were always professional. Some of them were more curt or responsive than others, but they all did their jobs. I also haven't ever been convicted of a crime or gotten a ticket, probably because I was honest and polite. In my experience, a lot of people that have trouble with the police also have a sense of entitlement and trouble being honest and polite. Not ALL, but most.
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