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The Line

edited August 2009 in Flamewars
Posted By: Loganator456Posted By: lackofcheesePosted By: Loganator456Flirting is fun and all, but there is a definite line.
Where?That's a whole other argument, if you want to discuss it further then make a new thread.
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Comments

  • The line is as thus: if she stops smiling, it's not flirting anymore.
  • I someone tells you to fuck off in no uncertain terms, and you persist, you have crossed the line.
  • edited August 2009
    Loganator456 mentioned a "definite line."
    I can name one - if it's unwanted - but while that is great in theory, the best you can get in practice is an approximation. Plus, "want" is not binary, it's not a choice between "DO NOT WANT" and "DO WANT."
    I someone tells you to fuck off in no uncertain terms, and you persist, you have crossed the line.
    Agreed. However, you can also cross the line without being told to fuck off in no uncertain terms:
    When one party is obviously disinterested, bothered, and/or trying to avoid the second party, who persists in flirting despite knowing that the first party wants to be left alone. That's when we're seeing harassment.
    So if they're socially inept to the point of missing the obvious signs it isn't harassment?
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • Usually you should know the person well enough to figure out what the line is for them, it's variable.
  • edited August 2009
    Agreed. It's really more of an intuition to know when to stop, and the person matters also.

    EDIT: You wanted a definite line though? When the other party is clearly disinterested and ignoring you yet you still bother them constantly. That's harrasment.
    Post edited by Loganator456 on
  • edited August 2009
    Damn. I was waiting for the "definite line" you claimed the existence of. A bit like Fermat's supposed simple proof of his Last Theorem, then?

    EDIT: Clear to whom? What does "disinterested" mean for a human being?
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • I lack the ability to flirt so I don't have to worry about going too far. When it comes to my own boundaries, I don't think I have a line. I'm cool with anything except permanent physical injury.

    Perhaps people should take a systematic solution. "You are about to execute a physical dialogue. Do you wish to continue?" I would have to wear a t-shirt that said ROOT.
  • Disinterested with flirting to me means, not smiling, clearly either annoyed or, well, disinterested. If you can flirt worth a crap then reading body language and their responses clearly shows to you whether or not to proceed, or whether you are going into annoying territory.
  • Personally I believe in communication. I think that if there is an inarguable line, it is definitely the word "NO" or any word/sentence conveying the same meaning. Body language and niceties aside, if someone can't take a hint then "NO" should be the end of things. No means no, and someone who can't take no for an answer is not a good person to be around.
  • edited August 2009
    Sure, we can agree that everything past "NO" is black, while "YES" is white (or is it?), but in between them is an area, not a line. It's easy to see that there can be black without the "NO", and white without the "YES".
    My point is that there are plenty of shades of grey, even though there's areas that are unequivocally white, and unequivocally black.
    Usually you should know the person well enough to figure out what the line is for them, it's variable.
    Yes, and not only does it vary with the person, but also with a whole bunch of other factors. What if the person you're flirting with has somewhere else to go right now but is responding positively? Do they want to be flirted with? The answer is that it depends.

    You also have to take into account that when a person says "no", they really mean "yes".
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • The line is as thus: if she stops smiling, it's not flirting anymore.
    Women tend to stop smiling as soon as they clap eyes on me, so where is my line?
  • I ran into this one recently: Is flirting okay if you know the person who is flirting with you is already in a relationship? My moral compass says no, so I didn't let it go very far. The other reason is that her boyfriend is awesome and I really didn't want to do anything like that to him. What do you guys think?
  • Is flirting okay if you know the person who is flirting with you is already in a relationship?
    Flirting is usually not that big a deal. People flirt because it's fun, not necessarily because it's supposed to lead anywhere. I think this is a situation where you can kinda "feel" the line, where it switches from harmless fun to something that could get you in trouble.
  • edited August 2009
    Is flirting okay if you know the person who is flirting with you is already in a relationship?
    Well, it's possible that it could be okay with everyone involved. Additionally, if you restrain yourself for the sake of someone who is flirting with you, isn't that discrediting the other person's ability to make their own decisions?

    From a selfish perspective, though, it makes sense to avoid
    something that could get you in trouble.
    but in such a case the decision depends on the expected level of trouble vs the potential for win.
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • edited August 2009
    Also, a caveat to anyone that didn't already know this: If the other person is intoxicated to the point that they can't respond clearly (or is outright passed out) then any contact - even if previously discussed or hinted at - is out of the question.
    I know that most, if not everyone, on this forum is aware of this, but I have personal exeprence that indicates that even intelligent, usually upstanding people can cross that line.
    but in such a case the decision depends on the expected level of trouble vs the potential for win.
    Regardless of trouble, would you really want to involve yourself with someone that would cheat and are you okay with being the kind of person that facilitates that behavior (even if the other person is in a bad relationship)?
    Post edited by Kate Monster on
  • You know how to fix the ambiguity problem? Ask. If you ask a valid and polite question and the person freaks out, then you are probably dodging a bullet anyway.
  • You know how to fix the ambiguity problem? Ask. If you ask a valid and polite question and the person freaks out, then you are probably dodging a bullet anyway.
    Nuri, as ever, you are 100% correct.
  • RymRym
    edited August 2009
    If you ask a valid and polite question and the person freaks out, then you are probably dodging a bullet anyway.
    If you do anything, and the person freaks out, then you are probably dodging a bullet anyway. (Or, they're dodging a bullet...)
    Post edited by Rym on
  • If you ask a valid and polite question and the person freaks out, then you are probably dodging a bullet anyway.
    If youdo anything, and the person freaks out, then you are probably dodging a bullet anyway. (Or,they'redodging a bullet...)
    Are you saying I can dodge bullets?
    image
  • edited August 2009
    Additionally, if you restrain yourself for the sake of someone who is flirting with you, isn't that discrediting the other person's ability to make their own decisions?
    It can be, but it really depends on your ability to read the other person. I've been hit on by drunken trash before, and, well, that's not a situation where you really want to flirt back. Some people really do lack adequate decision-making skills, and you really need to find out if the other person is that way or not. If someone is projecting an air of confidence (and is preferably sober while doing so), then you're probably in better territory. Nonetheless, it's best to ask if you're totally unsure. Maybe you can flirt back a little bit, but a well-placed "Is your [SO] OK with this?" will clear the air of any possible problems. Plus, the answer to that question can reveal a lot about the personality behind it, and guide you in deciding whether or not you want to continue.

    I know if I flirted back, asked if her boyfriend was OK with it, and heard something dismissive like, "Oh, he doesn't matter," or, "Don't worry about him," or something like that, I'd be immediately disinclined to proceed unless I knew something about the couple that would allow for that sort of thing. When it comes to strangers, I make no assumptions.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • Additionally, if you restrain yourself for the sake of someone who is flirting with you, isn't that discrediting the other person's ability to make their own decisions?
    It can be, but it really depends on your ability to read the other person....Plus, the answer to that question can reveal a lot about the personality behind it, and guide you in deciding whether or not you want to continue.
    Trust is really important. If you can't trust the person to say no to you when it is appropriate, how could you be in a relationship with them and trust them to say no to someone else?

    If the person cannot speak up and assert the rules of their own relationship, then there is no reason to think they would be able to assert the rules of a relationship with you. This is a recipe for drama.
  • edited August 2009
    Additionally, if you restrain yourself for the sake of someone who is flirting with you, isn't that discrediting the other person's ability to make their own decisions?
    It can be, but it really depends on your ability to read the other person....Plus, the answer to that question can reveal a lot about the personality behind it, and guide you in deciding whether or not you want to continue.
    Trust is really important. If you can't trust the person to say no to you when it is appropriate, how could you be in a relationship with them and trust them to say no to someone else?

    If the person cannot speak up and assert the rules of their own relationship, then there is no reason to think they would be able to assert the rules of a relationship with you. This is a recipe for drama.
    Precisely. If a girl gets drunk and hits on random guys with her current beau, there's an excellent chance that she'd do it to you too. Now, if you're in a relationship where that sort of thing is expressly allowed, that's one thing, but if that's not what you want, and you go for that anyhow, you get what you deserve.

    Flirting is great fun, and as long as everyone involved is OK with the direction it goes, then go ahead and flirt away. If you get uncomfortable with the direction it's going, then just stop.
    You also have to take into account that when a person says "no", they really mean "yes".
    You know what I've learned about people who say "no" when they mean "yes," or who say "yes" when they should be saying "no?" They're not worth your time. Move along. Say "no" when you mean "no" and "yes" when you mean "yes," unless you're doing some sort of roleplaying or some such thing. Flirting is best done by being indirect rather than being outright contradictory.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • No only means yes if you've established a Safe Word ahead of time. Period. If some dumb chick says no and means yes, then maybe she will learn to actually say yes next time if you take her at her word.

    People who are too stupid to communicate properly should be punished by literal interpretation.
  • edited August 2009
    People say "No" but mean "Yes"? WTF?! Why? Do they not understand the English language? I have never knowingly encountered this, but I often take things at face value and assume that others are as sincere as I am.
    Maybe I just don't associate with retards.
    Post edited by Kate Monster on
  • People who are too stupid to communicate properly should be punished by literal interpretation.
    If more people played D&D; and tried to haggle with a baatezu, they'd learn the pitfalls of literal interpretation. I'm pretty sure that's what's wrong with the world right now: not enough people have been across the table from an asshole DM.
  • People say "No" but mean "Yes"? WTF?! Why? Do they not understand the English language? I have never knowingly encountered this, but I often take things at face value and assume that others are as sincere as I am.
    Maybe I just don't associate with retards.
    I believe Nuri's referring to a certain type of play that people in a relationship sometimes do...
  • People say "No" but mean "Yes"? WTF?! Why? Do they not understand the English language? I have never knowingly encountered this, but I often take things at face value and assume that others are as sincere as I am.
    Maybe I just don't associate with retards.
    I believe Nuri's referring to a certain type of play that people in a relationship sometimes do...
    Oh, I know about sexual play between people that have predefined the parameters of the activity. I am talking about people saying this outside of this controlled and understood situation.
  • How many times have you heard stories of guys assuming that a girl saying "no" was just her super-special-secret way of trying to entice him further between her legs?
  • edited August 2009
    How many times have you heard stories of guys assuming that a girl saying "no" was just her super-special-secret way of trying to entice him further between her legs?
    Doesn't mean that all of them are untrue. In fact, I remember my sister showing me an article in a Women's magazine that basically said "Do this, and you'll get the guy every time!" - I was even more disgusted than she was, because on top of the disgust I felt with the content of the article, christ, it's already hard enough for a bloke as it is without stupid shit like this being encouraged.

    Edit - Clarified my point.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • Doesn't mean that all of them are untrue. In fact, I remember my sister showing me an article in a Women's magazine that basically said "Do this, and you'll get the guy every time!" - I was even more disgusted than she was, because christ, it's already hard enough for a bloke as it is.
    I just vomited in my mouth a bit.
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