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The Martial Arts Thread

edited January 2010 in Everything Else
So as not to completely hijack the "Boo Yah!" thread with martial arts discussion and debate -- use this thread to discuss martial arts, proclaim your accomplishments, and ask questions.

Anyway, continuing from here:
Posted By: ChurbaName one Older art (20th century or before) that isn't 3/4 bullshit that you never use, and if you say BJJ, I'll call you a filthy liar, because I've seen the ceremonial bullshit and Impractical Sport competition moves in that just as much as anything else.
What if I were to just say that older arts are bullshit? Anyway, judo predates the 20th century, and it would fit my definition of "not bullshit". Also, muay thai, boxing, and wrestling. I'm not claiming that any of these arts are sufficient in and of themselves for any kind of conflict you might find yourself in, or that all of their techniques are useful in most situations -- only that hard sparring and full-contact competition has boiled all the hoodoo out of them, and you're left only with techniques that actually work against trained, fully-resisting opponents.

Anyway, that wasn't a statement of my opinion, it was a paraphrase of someone else's. I don't know much about aikido, but I haven't seen anything that gives me any confidence in it.

What are the "ceremonial bullshit and Impractical Sport competition moves" in BJJ that you're talking about? Certainly there are techniques (certain guards, for instance) that you'd only want to use in a sport BJJ context -- that's why no one uses those techniques in MMA. Helio Gracie himself has spoken out against the proliferation of "sport" techniques in BJJ. They're a small part of the art -- a far cry from your 3/4 standard. Regardless, BJJ has been proven effective over and over again, for over 70 years, in fights with the barest of rules.
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Comments

  • The practicality of TKD varies wildly depending on the school. There is a practical side to TKD such as simple strikes and blocks, joint locks, grab breaks, throws, take downs, pressure points, and even the basic tenets of social conflict resolution. On the other end are competition skills like flashy kicks, pumsae, sparring, and breaking. You could spend a lifetime studying either side, and what you learn depends entirely upon what the person teaching you has dedicated him/herself to.

    Although, I would argue that almost any martial art, no matter what techniques are involved, holds some practicality when it comes to self defence. If I hadn't done TKD for so long I wouldn't have the confidence, reflexes, instincts, strength, and agility I have now. I imagine that counts for something, though I admit I've never actually been in a real fight before. I've managed to diffuse almost every potentially violent situation I've been in either by intimidation, confidence, or diplomacy.

    And, to proclaim my accomplishments real quick, I've studied and practised TKD for ten years. After three years I got my deputy first degree black belt (deputy because I was under the age of 13), two years later I got my second degree, and I'll probably have a third soon enough. I've been at the top of my class pretty much the entire time, and out of the dozen or so competitions I've participated in I've come in second twice and third once, with all the others being first place.
  • There is a practical side to TKD such as simple strikes and blocks, joint locks, grab breaks, throws, take downs, pressure points, and even the basic tenets of social conflict resolution. On the other end are competition skills like flashy kicks, pumsae, sparring, and breaking. You could spend a lifetime studying either side, and what you learn depends entirely upon what the person teaching you has dedicated him/herself to.
    That was probably true of most arts at one time or another, and I suspect that what makes the difference is the method of training. Arts that focus on hard sparring and competition tend to be boiled down to what actually works, while arts that focus on kata and theory can accumulate all kinds of cruft without ever having it seriously tested.

    I don't know much about the training and competition in TKD -- I've seen some clips of competition, and they're obviously going hard. How do they do sparring and competition at your school? A quick survey of the Wikipedia article on olympic TKD competition seems to indicate that it's point-based rather than, I guess you'd say "effect-based". That kinda concerns me -- it seems like the sort of thing that allows or encourages ineffective techniques to creep into the art.
    Although, I would argue that almost any martial art, no matter what techniques are involved, holds some practicality when it comes to self defence. If I hadn't done TKD for so long I wouldn't have the confidence, reflexes, instincts, strength, and agility I have now. I imagine that counts for something, though I admit I've never actually been in a real fight before.
    Certainly, most any art will give you fitness, reflexes, flexibility, confidence, etc. But I worry about people who've learned ridiculous bullshit that doesn't work getting themselves seriously hurt if they try it against a real attacker and it doesn't have the effect they're counting on. Like, "dim mak" for instance:
  • edited January 2010
    Like, "dim mak" for instance:


    Dude, you need to be careful with that shit. A dim mak strike can kill a person five years after they are hit with it!
    Post edited by WindUpBird on
  • Due to this thread I was inspired to write a blog post about my martial art of choice:

    I play 3 Club Combat. It's a martial art based on juggling. Put simply, the last person juggling wins. When I'm in Berlin, I fight with others at least twice a week, normally playing team games, two on two or three on three. And, because we train all the time, Berlin players are generally the best who compete at the national and international events.

    There are three main types of three club combat.

    1.
    The first is group combat, where it's just a huge melee of jugglers, and it's every man/woman for himself/herself. You can play this with three people, 30 people (at small juggling events), or 300 people (at the European Juggling Conventions). With a small number of people you can have "first to five wins" sessions, which makes it more interesting than just playing a series of one-off games.

    At the larger events, during the "official" tournament, to counter the randomness of action in the large, crowded games, we have four rounds of open group games, then take the winners of the four games and put them into a four person final.

    In 2009, I got through to the four person final, but was knocked out by Jochen, another Berlin juggler, who was the overall winner. This was the size of the match in 2009:
    image

    Here's a video of the forth round of the four open games at the EJC in 2008. I went on to win the four person final:


    But at conventions it's not all about the "official" games; the more interesting sessions take place late at night. As soon as one game finishes, the next begins! And as you can play as long as you want, and drop out at any time, most nights the combat sessions last four or five hours. I and many others often play for over three hours at a time.

    2.
    One on one tournaments (or "Celebrity Fight Nights") are events that normally last an hour and a half. Eight or twelve jugglers are invited to take part, and it's knockout tournament, sometimes with group stages for the first rounds. This event is good entertainment for the audience, as the competitors play up their characters, WWE style, but the skill on display is as high as it gets. I've yet to win an EJC title, but have taken second place in four out of the last five EJC tournaments. I've lost to Jay Gilligan (the best player from America) twice and Jochen Pfeiffer (the best player from Germany) twice. Winning at the EJC is one of my life goals for 2010, although both Jay and Jochen will probably be there. Come to think of it, of the 20 or so Fight Nights I've played in, there have only been half a dozen individual winners. Jay Gilligan, Jochen Pfeiffer, Aaron Greg (from Canada), myself, Manu Laude (France), Florian Marienfeld (Berlin)... maybe one other person who has slipped my mind.

    Here's me and Jochen in the final round at the EJC 2009. We meet in final rounds quite often, and I've yet to beat him.
    image

    3.
    The last kind of combat is Team Combat, where jugglers go two on two or three on three. There aren't that many team events organized, as group and one on one tournaments are much easier to plan, but if you have four or six jugglers, team combat is by far the most interesting and tactical form of combat. Here's a video of me and Flo vs JJ and DJ. It's a few years old, but is the best breakdown of what can happen during a team combat match.




    Combat is one of my favorite things about juggling, and juggling is my favorite hobby, as well as being my job. It has absolutely no use in a real fight, but it is a very complex and stupidly high skilled martial art.
  • I don't know much about the training and competition in TKD -- I've seen some clips of competition, and they're obviously going hard. How do they do sparring and competition at your school? A quick survey of the Wikipedia article on olympic TKD competition seems to indicate that it's point-based rather than, I guess you'd say "effect-based". That kinda concerns me -- it seems like the sort of thing that allows or encourages ineffective techniques to creep into the art.
    In Olympic sparring a single point is awarded for a strong, accurate body strike (a roundhouse kick, for instance), two points are awarded for a turning kick (countering the roundhouse with a turning back side), and three are awarded for a kick to the head (countering with a jump turning back hook kick). At my school a single point is awarded for any effective kick, and kicks to the head are illegal in colour belt competition. In both no points are scored for kicks to the back, kicks below the belt are illegal, and no grabbing is allowed. Because the rules are so restrictive TKD sparring is more a display of technical ability within the sport than a test of fighting ability, with the complexities of feinting, countering, and footwork being more important than damaging the opponent. This is underlined by that fact that, in my school, the two sides are separated; sparring techniques are taught in sparring classes, self defence techniques are taught in self defence classes, and the average student will participate in both every week.
  • In both no points are scored for kicks to the back, kicks below the belt are illegal, and no grabbing is allowed. Because the rules are so restrictive TKD sparring is more a display of technical ability within the sport than a test of fighting ability, with the complexities of feinting, countering, and footwork being more important than damaging the opponent. This is underlined by that fact that, in my school, the two sides are separated; sparring techniques are taught in sparring classes, self defence techniques are taught in self defence classes, and the average student will participate in both every week.
    Interesting. Are there ever opportunities to spar full-speed without the restrictions?
  • Are there ever opportunities to spar full-speed without the restrictions?
    Wander into a seedy bar and insult everyone's mothers.
  • edited January 2010
    Wander into a seedy bar and insult everyone's mothers.
    Walk into a redneck bar, Order a cock-sucking cowboy, then give a big wink to the biggest, angriest looking guy you see.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • Interesting. Are there ever opportunities to spar full-speed without the restrictions?
    No, above all we try to keep the students safe; enough people get seriously injured with the restrictions in place. However, we do practice full-contact self defence with the basic safety restrictions in place.
  • However, we do practice full-contact self defence with the basic safety restrictions in place.
    What does that look like?

    @Churba -- you didn't answer my question regarding the "ceremonial bullshit and Impractical Sport competition moves" in BJJ. The choice of the word "ceremonial" strikes me as especially weird, because I can't think of an art with less ceremony than BJJ without going to western arts like boxing and wrestling.
  • edited January 2010
    What does that look like?
    Either something like this (the first half, anyway):



    Or like this:



    Or somewhere in between the two.

    Oh, and I forgot to mention that 3 Club Combat is awesome and makes me want to learn how to juggle.
    Post edited by Walker on
  • edited January 2010

    @Churba -- you didn't answer my question regarding the "ceremonial bullshit and Impractical Sport competition moves" in BJJ. The choice of the word "ceremonial" strikes me as especially weird, because I can't think of an art with less ceremony than BJJ without going to western arts like boxing and wrestling.
    I know. I'm thinking about the answer, because thinking before I say something has served me well on the one occasion I did it before. But for Arts with less ceremony and such than BJJ, Try Systema or Krav Maga. The most ceremony either of them have is signing the Insurance forms before you start the classes.

    Edit - Though, why don't you compare it to western arts, like boxing or wrestling? It's not like they don't have a place in the martial arts spectrum.

    Double Edit - Though, It appears you answer your own question.

    What are the "ceremonial bullshit and Impractical Sport competition moves" in BJJ that you're talking about?
    Certainly there are techniques (certain guards, for instance) that you'd only want to use in a sport BJJ context -- that's why no one uses those techniques in MMA.
    And to add a snide comment just so you know it's me -
    Regardless, BJJ has been proven effective over and over again, for over 70 years, in fights with the barest of rules.
    For thousands of years, in fights with little to no rules, So has Hitting people with the biggest hunk of wood you can effectively swing.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • But for Arts with less ceremony and such than BJJ, Try Systema or Krav Maga. The most ceremony either of them have is signing the Insurance forms before you start the classes.
    Fair enough -- regardless, the closest thing I can think of to ceremony in BJJ is that in some schools, when you get a new belt, everyone gets to throw you, and that's perhaps more appropriately called "hazing". There's no formal testing, no bowing, no calling anyone "sensei" or anything like that. It's super-relaxed. It's Brazilian for fucksake. Anyway, it's beside the point as far as I'm concerned -- I don't mind ceremony and traditionalism in the structure of the classes as long as what it's teaching you is effective. Judo has tons of traditionalism, but it teaches you serious-business skills that work like a motherfucker, and are tested hard in sparring every day in class.
  • So apparently I'll be doing a tournament this Friday. I wouldn't have thought I was ready for that yet, but my sensei encouraged me. I'll report back and let everyone know how bad it was. :)
  • So apparently I'll be doing a tournament this Friday. I wouldn't have thought I was ready for that yet, but my sensei encouraged me. I'll report back and let everyone know how bad it was. :)
    Good luck, and have fun!
  • GeoGeo
    edited January 2010
    The only reason I don't ever continue my Tang Soo Do studies is that the last dojo in Southern Connecticut (the only other one I know of is in Enfield which is ridiculously far away) closed and I was left with no teacher and no chance of future study. However, ever since I began my meditation, I've been able to be more in tune with my body enough to realize I was missing something, and that something was martial arts. They used to be a big part of my life and that all vanished when the dojo closed. However, I'm going to search now for a new style to study. I've been researching quite heavily lately and I think I might have found a few that I think I am able and willing to study and practice. I have a bigger list, but here are a couple on the list: Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Northern (or Southern) Praying Mantis, Krav Maga, or Xingyiquan.
    Post edited by Geo on
  • edited January 2010
    Krav Maga. If I could study it, I would, as it's immensely practical and generally super badass. We're talking about a style founded on the concept that if you fail to incapacitate your opponent, he WILL kill you. Krav Maga assumes no quarter.

    In fact, I'm looking up training centers for KM as we speak so that I can take lessons in the summer. I've finally lost enough weight that mastering a discipline isn't physically beyond my reach.
    Post edited by WindUpBird on
  • here are a couple on the list: Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Northern (or Southern) Praying Mantis, Krav Maga, or Xingyiquan.
    It really depends on why you want to study martial arts -- or what you want out of it. Of that list, I'd definitely recommend Krav Maga, but outside of that list, I'd recommend boxing, muay thai, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, judo, sambo, wrestling, or kyokushin karate. The reason being that these are the arts that are proven to work in hard competition. I'm even a little suspicious of Krav Maga -- we had a Krav class at the gym I used to train BJJ at, and they would spar with us occasionally. They were trivially easy to dominate in either striking or grappling, because they don't spend much time actually putting their techniques into practice against resisting opponents. On the other hand, I guess they have a better shot at taking a gun away from someone than I do, so maybe it's a wash.

    So: If you just want to learn something that's fun, try any of those. If you want something that's probably somewhat effective in certain scenarios, try Krav. If you want to actually learn to fight, pick a combat sport.
  • In fact, I'm looking up training centers for KM as we speak so that I can take lessons in the summer. I've finally lost enough weight that mastering a discipline isn't physically beyond my reach.
    I was pretty large when I started out, but I soon lost all that weight with all the classes and practicing I did. One of the lessons I learned was that weight has nothing to do with learning most styles of martial arts. A fellow student of mine was not only physically imposing, but he was well over 250 pounds. He lacked a little speed, but his power carried him through. The point is, don't tell yourself you can't do martial arts for reasons similar to what you gave, if you have the will and the dedication to learn, then you will.
  • GeoGeo
    edited January 2010
    here are a couple on the list: Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Northern (or Southern) Praying Mantis, Krav Maga, or Xingyiquan.
    It really depends on why you want to study martial arts -- or what you want out of it. Of that list, I'd definitely recommend Krav Maga, but outside of that list, I'd recommend boxing, muay thai, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, judo, sambo, wrestling, or kyokushin karate. The reason being that these are the arts that are proven to work in hard competition. I'm even a little suspicious of Krav Maga -- we had a Krav class at the gym I used to train BJJ at, and they would spar with us occasionally. They were trivially easy to dominate in either striking or grappling, because they don't spend much time actually putting their techniques into practice against resisting opponents. On the other hand, I guess they have a better shot at taking a gun away from someone than I do, so maybe it's a wash.

    So: If you just want to learn something that's fun, try any of those. If you want something that's probably somewhat effective in certain scenarios, try Krav. If you want to actually learn to fight, pick a combat sport.
    I already know how to defend myself due to my mastery of Tang Soo Do, I want to expand my horizons and try to incorporate other styles and disciplines both in self-defense, exercises, as well as methods of just making sure everything in my body and mind is in balance.
    Post edited by Geo on
  • Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Northern (or Southern) Praying Mantis
    Southern Praying mantis is a fork of Hung Gar, you can kill two birds with one stone there. Also, None of these will actually teach you Any sort of Air, earth, fire or water bending, and I suggest picking martial arts independent of what Animation you're watching at the time, or else you end up with an insurmountable list. I've been practicing martial arts most of my life, and I can only truly call myself a master of a single art. Just one. Be kinda okay at a bunch of different arts, or be good at one or two - that's the choice.
  • edited January 2010
    I might take BJJ or Muay Thai instead of KM over the summer, as the nearest training center is an hour away from my house for Krav, versus ten minutes for BJJ and Muay Thai. I'd like to be able to learn a LOT this summer, and the part of Krav I'm most interested in is the active analysis of your surroundings, so I'm thinking BJJ or Muay Thai make more sense. BJJ or Muay Thai is enough to win most fights, barring a weapon being drawn, at which point I'd back the fuck off in most circumstances.
    Post edited by WindUpBird on
  • Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Northern (or Southern) Praying Mantis
    Southern Praying mantis is a fork of Hung Gar, you can kill two birds with one stone there. Also, None of these will actually teach you Any sort of Air, earth, fire or water bending, and I suggest picking martial arts independent of what Animation you're watching at the time, or else you end up with an insurmountable list. I've been practicing martial arts most of my life, and I can only truly call myself a master of a single art. Just one. Be kinda okay at a bunch of different arts, or be good at one or two - that's the choice.
    The fact that Avatar has those as influences is entirely coincidental because I researched them and I feel I'm more than capable of dedicating myself to doing either one.
  • Jeet Kune Do could be cool...
  • edited January 2010
    I might take BJJ or muay thai instead of KM over the summer, as the nearest training center is an hour away from my house for Krav, versus ten minutes for BJJ and muay thai.
    I strongly, strongly recommend either of those, or both if you can. If it has to be one, it might be better to start with MT, as it's a lot quicker to get proficient with, and if you end up in a fight, you're going to want to stay standing as much as possible anyway. Also, MT gets you in incredible shape -- best shape of my life was when I was training MT. I felt like I never got tired. BJJ will also get you in great shape though, and grappling endurance is different than striking endurance.
    Jeet Kune Do could be cool...
    I don't want to put too much stock in personal experience, but the JKD guys I've sparred with were jokes.
    Post edited by Funfetus on
  • edited January 2010
    I think that the place near my house does a dual specialization course, but I'll likely focus on MT.
    I don't want to put too much stock in personal experience, but the JKD guys I've sparred with were jokes.
    In was more in jest than anything else. The philosophy behind JKD is pretty neat and it's always pretty cool when Spike does his thing in Bebop, but aside from that, meh.

    Systema is something I could get behind, but like Krav Maga, it's hard to find a training center for.
    Post edited by WindUpBird on
  • How about capoeira? I don't think I could do it, but it looks pretty cool.
  • edited January 2010
    How about capoeira? I don't think I could do it, but it looks pretty cool.
    Do you want something remotely practical? That's not meant to be offensive; it's a serious question.
    Post edited by WindUpBird on
  • edited January 2010
    How about capoeira? I don't think I could do it, but it looks pretty cool.
    "Looks pretty cool" is all it does. :) Hate to keep going on with anecdotes, but I had a couple of friends -- one guy, about 5'10", 180lbs., who was training capoeira, and a female roommate who was about 5'2" and maybe 130 and had a bit of grappling training (and really not much at all) -- they got a little buzzed at a party and decided to spar, and she dominated him. Capoeira is pretty much the most absurd excuse for a martial art I can imagine. I'm sure it's a very fun sport and activity, though.
    Post edited by Funfetus on
  • How about capoeira? I don't think I could do it, but it looks pretty cool.
    Do you want something remotely practical? That's not meant to be offensive; it's a serious question.
    I'm actually not sure what I want to do...could you define practical in that context?
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