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GeekNights 20100119 - Street Fighting Secrets

edited January 2010 in GeekNights
Tonight on GeekNights Scott learns that part of being good at Street Fighter isn't just reflexes, but knowing secrets the game doesn't tell you. In the news, there is going to be a SEGA Genesis emulator for the iPhone, and PAX East is selling out.
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Comments

  • This is a really good episode. Really nice job, Scott.
  • This is a really good episode. Really nice job, Scott.
    He may well have convinced me to enter this world. Fuck!

    We'll see. If I buy the stick, there's no turning back. One cannot turn away from gnosis.
  • The Something Awful games forum is actually one of the best resources for video games these days (as I proved to Scott).

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  • The info isn't that hard to find. If you Google "Street Fighter 4 tips" the first result is this guide, which is fairly comprehensive and pretty friendly to newcomers.
  • The info isn'tthathard to find. If you Google "Street Fighter 4 tips" the first result isthisguide, which is fairly comprehensive and pretty friendly to newcomers.
    It's out there if you look for it, but it's INCREDIBLY unintuitive, and it's not spelled out anywhere in the game itself, so I can understand why it's a mystery to a lot of people. Fighting games do require a particular dedication to seeking out their arcane secrets.
  • It's out there if you look for it, but it's INCREDIBLY unintuitive, and it's not spelled out anywhere in the game itself, so I can understand why it's a mystery to a lot of people. Fighting games do require a particular dedication to seeking out their arcane secrets.
    Oh, certainly; Scott's point is great, but I think he oversold how hard it is to find these guides. :P
  • I friend of mine became a really hard core SF 4 gamer after he got his stick. Underground arcades in Peru are on the rise again :P
  • but I think he oversold how hard it is to find these guides. :P
    You know, I think if you didn't realize that there is this arcane knowledge out there -- that there is this "hidden" depth to the game -- you might not go looking for it. I don't know. I went looking for it and found it right away when I got SF4, but I also kinda always knew this was how these games worked, even if I didn't know the specifics.
  • When Scott was talking about having a game come with two discs to put it in either console, you could have thought of just compiling one disc that will play in either using separate binaries but the same assets.
  • edited January 2010
    If you want to get good at Street Fighter, this blog breaks down all the stuff you need to know as a beginner to take you beyond "I accidentally a shoryuken" to actually understanding the game -- mechanics and strategies.
    Post edited by Funfetus on
  • edited January 2010
    Oh, certainly; Scott's point is great, but I think he oversold how hard it is to find these guides. :P
    The problem is not finding guides. The guides are easy to find. The problem is that the guides are written by experts. That's to be expected, because a newb wouldn't be able to write a guide. The problem, however, is that experts have been playing these games for a very long time. They do not even realize that things which just come naturally to them need to be explained in excruciating detail to newbs. Thus, many of these guides fail to teach the fundamentals.

    A good example of this can be found on YouTube. Go search for videos of doing the SFIV trials. You will find many videos. Many videos even have the players showing their hands, so you can learn it. Very nice! The problem is people only show hands for the hard trials. One guy made videos of the normal trials, but he said "I'm not showing my hands, this is all obvious." It's not obvious to nubs fool!

    Again, the easiest example here is the concept of canceling. Every guide lets you know that canceling exists. They tell you that you have to buffer moves. You can interrupt the animation of one move, with another move.

    That is not enough information! Here I will write for you an acceptable and noob-friendly explanation of one particular cancel I have learned. Take special note of how fucking long this description is, and how much excruciating detail I go into. This is the level of detail necessary for newbs to actually understand this game. Remember, if you tell a newb down, down-forward, forward, punch, that is not enough information for 90% of people to be able to learn to do a hadouken.

    Also, keep in mind that if I were not just about to go to work, videos should be included with this showing on-screen and hands. For a guide to be truly complete and noob friendly, they would need descriptions like this for EVERY cancel, as well as many other unexplained things like counters, combos, links, etc.

    M. Bison - Knee Press to Knee Press Knightmare Cancel

    In order to do M. Bison's Knee Press special attack you have to charge back for two seconds then go forward with a punch.

    This means you must first hold the stick away from the opponent for two seconds on the game clock. You don't have to be on the ground holding straight back. You can be crouch-blocking. You can be punching and kicking the opponent, you can even be jumping. To jump at the opponent all you need to do is tap up and forward. you don't need to keep the stick there, you're already jumping. That means you can tap up and forward to initiate a jump, then immediately move the stick to a back position to begin charging. Just keep holding the charge while you jump-kick and then ground-hit the opponent, for a second, and the move will be ready to unleash.

    After you have been holding the charge long enough, at any time you can release by pressing forward quickly and immediately followed by a kick button. Any kick button will work. The stronger the kick, the longer the range, the more damage, and the slower the move will execute. You could press two kicks simultaneously to do an EX attack, but that will subtract a section of your meter. To do this cancel, you need a full super meter, so do not do an EX attack.

    In order to do M. BIson's super attack, the Knee Press Nightmare, you also need to charge for two seconds. The only difference is that you do not simply press forward quickly followed by a kick. You press forward, then back, then forward, and then the kick. You must do it quickly for it to work, but don't try to do it too quickly. I like to do it to the appropriate rhythm of Bheethoven's 5th. Charge then : forward back forward kick.... dum dum dum dummmmmmm....

    Now what about the canceling? If you do a regular knee press that hits, or is blocked, the animation of it is a little slower because it takes slight pauses to show you the hits or blocks. This can be "canceled" allowing you to get one hit off with a regular knee press then have it immediately become a kneee press knightmare, mid-stream! If the first one hits, the rest are going to hit in combo, so this is a pretty powerful attack.

    The thing is, you can't possibly imagine how this is possible. After you do one knee press you need to charge for two seconds again to do a knee press nightmare. You definitely do not have two seconds between releasing one knee press and landing the first hit to even execute the super, let alone charge it.

    The secret is that you don't have to charge again. You can execute both moves with just one charge. Think of this not as a combination of two moves, but as a third, undocumented move. In order to make it happen, you do not execute both of these moves in sequence. You merge them into a single move. It goes something like this.

    Charge back for two seconds. Forward. Kick. Back. Forward. Kick.

    Here's an easier way to think about it. First learn to do a normal knee press. If you're super meter is full, and your knee press hits or is blocked (you don't just "whiff" and kick the air) you can do two knee presses in a row, but the second knee press requires no charging. You just have to tap back and you will get a "free charge". Execute this as if it were just one move, not two. If you think about it being two separate moves, you will mess it up. It's just one move that happens to combine two moves on the screen.

    Another way to think about it is that it is exactly the same as the knee press nightmare move. However, you just press kick one extra time in the middle of it, and a normal knee press will happen in the middle of your super.

    [[Video of hands so people can learn the timing]]
    [[Video of move on screen, so people can verify if they've done it correctly]]
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • I really like the idea of the conversion manual for fighting games between status of learned amateur and lazed professional. The hard part is getting the lexicon and timing down in regards to instructions. It all happens in such small measures of time so reading all that has to be done at upper levels would have to be worded in a straight forward way. I have been aware of fighting game universal rules, but always equated it to being a specialist. You are good at what you learn. Much like I don't know snipe spots, or estranged teleports or 'hax' in fpses, so to will non-2df players not learn the flow. I know that sounded cliché, but I like it there.

    I never thought I was operating from a wholly differing set of basics. This gnosis only seems so amazing because it's written down. Ok, that's a lie...it IS a really good to have in your skill set, but no different than learning the nuances of any other genre. For instance, the holding a button down for move chains and specials is seen in GH/RB. It's not SO epic; you're making me feel like a douche for how I learned.
  • For instance, the holding a button down for move chains and specials is seen in GH/RB. It's not SO epic; you're making me feel like a douche for how I learned.
    Or DDR players who don't realize they can stand on arrows after they hit them. It's all a matter of scale.

    Street Fighter, however, makes it the game. It's too much to leave undocumented.
  • edited January 2010
    I always thought that all you mentioned was common knowledge from street fighter II.

    BTW if you can't do the 360 moves, just jump forward and do the 360 while on the jump (you don't have to do it really fast so don't worry), just press or release the button/s at the end of the jump.
    Post edited by MrRoboto on
  • This was a really good episode. I'm not about to start playing Street Fighter again, but I have done so in the past, and I had exactly the same problems.

    In fact, all the episodes you've done so far this year have been really good. I guess that's what comes from boosting your energy and enthusiasm.

    I'd like to hear more on the podcast about Rym's reasons for not buying a house out in Beacon and instead moving to the city. I can guess why, but it would be good to hear his new geek-house plans or lack of them.
  • This is a really good episode. Really nice job, Scott.
    You guys got Sail listening again, that's impressive. ^_~
    He may well have convinced me to enter this world. Fuck!
    We'll see. If I buy the stick, there's no turning back. One cannot turn away from gnosis.
    Indeed. I might have to consider purchasing a joystick for it. I also couldn't help but laugh at all those gnosis comments.
  • Roboto; Or throw a heavy attack that whiffs and rotate before the animation is complete.

    Rym; That's another thing. It doesn't make the game, it makes the genre. From SF, the KOF, To BB, to GG, to even 3d fighters. There are details and specialities hidden in several kinds of games. It is sounding like you almost have a sense like you deserve to know everything from the start. I can't agree with that. Yes it would help the base level of skill for gamers rise, but how many people would be motivated to go through that much research for a game? Only those that are into it. Maybe I'm sounding elitist, but by having it not written out in a sense you are fostering the community to have to learn with each other. I dunno, I'm rambling now and have lost my point. Chase the answer to prove you want it or something.
  • edited January 2010
    For people buying sticks, I bought the fancy Tournament stick for $100 on Amazon. Such a steal.

    The normal stick is nothing to sneeze at though. It's got problems, but it's still way better than a gamepad.

    These are the ones.

    Also, these sticks are PC and 360 compatible. They are also easily opened and modded. Even if you don't go hardcore in fighting games, you can use them for MAME. You can use them for controlling robots you make. You can use them for all sorts of things. I bought the tournament stick, and I plan to have it for the rest of my life.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • For people buying sticks, I bought the fancy Tournament one for $100 on Amazon. Such a steal.
    HOLY CRAP. A hundred bucks? You also messed up the links a bit. Why are they so ridiculously expensive? The 47 dollars price for the normal one makes at least some sense. Wouldn't a normal non-Street Fighter brand work just fine?

  • Rym; That's another thing. It doesn't make the game, it makes the genre. From SF, the KOF, To BB, to GG, to even 3d fighters. There are details and specialities hidden in several kinds of games. It is sounding like you almost have a sense like you deserve to know everything from the start. I can't agree with that. Yes it would help the base level of skill for gamers rise, but how many people would be motivated to go through that much research for a game? Only those that are into it. Maybe I'm sounding elitist, but by having it not written out in a sense you are fostering the community to have to learn with each other. I dunno, I'm rambling now and have lost my point. Chase the answer to prove you want it or something.
    I think you are failing to understand the difference between information and rules.

    It's OK for a game to keep information secret. For example, you don't show your hand to other players in poker. That's what we call an imperfect information game. Chess is a perfect information game, because there is no secret information. Everyone can see everything. Advance Wars can be both, depending on whether or not you turn on fog of war.

    It is NOT OK for a game to keep rules secret. Imagine playing Monopoly, but it doesn't say anywhere that you get $200 for passing Go. One person at the table figures it out. Now they are collecting $200, but nobody else is. Or let's say you're playing football, and one team just doesn't know about field goals. They sort of figure it out when they see the other team start kicking them, but they don't have anyone on the team trained to kick them.

    Just to make one more example, think of the Legend of Zelda. It's ok that Zelda doesn't tell you the exact locations of secret bushes to burn or rocks to bomb. However, the game does tell you that you are able to burn bushes and bomb rocks. If the game didn't tell you that bushes were burnable and rocks were bombable, that would be keeping a rule secret, which is bullshit.

    In Street Fighter, it's ok to keep information secret. It would be ok if I didn't know which character the other player was choosing. It's ok that I don't know what move the other person is about to do. It's not ok that the game doesn't tell you that it is possible to dash out of a focus attack. That's keeping a rule secret, and it's bullshit.
  • Wouldn't a normal non-Street Fighter brand work just fine?
    I researched it a lot. The tournament one is made with actual Sanwa Denshi arcade parts. It will last you forever. The original price was $150, so $100 is a steal. The standard one is made with cheapo parts, and is prone to breakage.
  • Roboto; Or throw a heavy attack that whiffs and rotate before the animation is complete.
    You have to be a bit quicker to pull it off like that and from what I heard in the show, it would just end in a heavy attack + jump.
  • ......
    edited January 2010
    I researched it a lot. The tournament one is made with actualSanwa Denshiarcade parts. It will last you forever. The original price was $150, so $100 is a steal. The standard one is made with cheapo parts, and is prone to breakage.
    You quoted only the part that you don't reply to. I saw the prices on the Tournament one, I commented on it still being 100 bucks. Thanks for the information, but still, wouldn't just getting a Sanwa Denshi stick without the Street Fighter branding will likely be a bunch cheaper. Or that market is just a total rip off, regardless of 'lasts forever'.
    Post edited by ... on
  • You quoted only the part that you don't reply to. I saw the prices on the Tournament one, I commented on it still being 100 bucks. Thanks for the information, but still, wouldn't just getting a Sanwa Denshi stick without the Street Fighter branding will likely be a bunch cheaper. Or that market is just a total rip off, regardless of 'lasts forever'.
    AFAIK Sanwa just makes the sticks and buttons. You would have to build the box, wire it up, figure out how to connect it to your XBOX 360 and PC via USB, and a whole lot more.
  • Apreche; That makes sense, only you call buffering and whatnot rules where I call it information. You play the game at the level of information you have. Just like in Halo, the concept of doing trick shots and specialized jumps is based on said players knowing certain 'rules' that applied to past games and applying them in future versions. It really skews it in your favor to use a Monopoly example, and while I can't counter it, the validity is shaky since there are many other counterexamples I can bring up, despite none able to cancel your point out.

    It's strange that you mention the Zelda example, because I learned all of those on my own as a child. And if I recall most of them were bonuses that weren't needed to complete the game, but were to Complete (with all the secrets ..if there are any) it. We are coming from two different viewpoints in gaming where I see the learning of secrets and tricks on your own as something to be proud of and cheer about, you see it as the game being obtrusive and setting up barriers to entry. Isn't it kind of telling that games should tell you how to play them 'completely' and not leave you anything to learn on your own?

    Roboto; Quicker rotations become easier with full on joysticks. Takes practice, but Hold FP (rotate) release FP. With proper timing (rotate within animation, hold while rotating, release after rotation), this example is a good way to show why play on a joystick despite the ease of using a controller.
  • JayJay
    edited January 2010
    I haven't listened to this podcast yet but from reading the comments I feel I should mention that a "360" motion required for certain throws does not need to be preformed by doing the whole rotation around the pad. You can do a "270" motion and the move will still come out. As such you don't have to buffer the command with anything or do it in the air. Just hold back then rotate the stick towards the up positions then press the appropriate attack button and the move will come out before you jump.

    Also, I feel that fighting games leave incredibly vast amounts of information out that are crucial to even doing basic movements. I understand though how tedious and annoying it would be to write them out in a manual. Also, It is unlikely most people would actually read the manual considering how tedious it would be to convey the concepts using text. There should be in game tutorials showing you essential game concepts being preformed while also having a split screen of example hands on a controller doing the same actions. This would save money on printing long manuals that no one would use and would be much easier to learn from. It probably wouldn't take that long to make and include either.

    As far as hidden information is concerned. I am a very avid fighting game player and only recently learned about "option selecting". Which involves buffering in two commands while either in block stun or attacking, and the game "chooses" for you the best of the two options. This is essential for high level play and brings incredible depth to the game and I never knew about it. I have read many fighting game tutorials and never seen it referenced. I only found out about it by accident by watching a tournament video and hearing the announcers mention that the one player should have "option selected" a different move.
    This is a really good episode. Really nice job, Scott.
    He may well have convinced me to enter this world. Fuck!

    We'll see. If I buy the stick, there's no turning back. One cannot turn away from gnosis.
    Considering the praise you give to skill based/reaction games like team fortress, I think Street Fighter would be right up your ally.
    Post edited by Jay on
  • Scott, the manual talks about both the focus attack and the armor, as well as super canceling. At least in the 360 manual. But the thing you didn't mention about the armor/focus attack is that it only works for the first attack. If you are hit more then once in a focus you take the damage absorbed in the first hit, as well as the damage of the second hit.

    Also with the focus attack the length you hold it dictates how long you stun the opponent. As the manual says: Level 1 of the focus attack does normal damage, and will crumple an enemy if it is a counter hit. Level 2 crumples the opponent, and level 3 is unblockable and crumples the opponent.
  • Scott, the manual talks about both the focus attack and the armor, as well as super canceling. At least in the 360 manual. But the thing you didn't mention about the armor/focus attack is that it only works for the first attack. If you are hit more then once in a focus you take the damage absorbed in the first hit, as well as the damage of the second hit.
    That's pretty good. I admit I have never seen this manual because I bought the game on Steam. Also, I wrongly assumed the new manual would be similar to manuals I usually get with games nowadays, sparse as all hell.

    Also, even though the manual might say these things, I highly doubt it describes them in enough detail for an absolute newb to learn them.

    Humor me and find the instructions in the manual on how to do a hadouken. D, DF, F, P is not enough! Shoryuken is even worse. No newb is going to understand the 'Z' motion. When I was a kid playing SF2CE on Genesis, I knew that a Shoryuken was F, D, DF, P. Still, I was never able to do them with any reliability, even in the arcade. It was basically random. I blame the inadequate instructions because thanks to Youtube and such I was finally able to get it down. Because it only required instruction, and not practice, it's not a skill, it's knowledge.
  • To be honest, this episode almost put me to sleep. It doesn't help that I've been really tired this week already, but my best friend has tried to explain the intricacies and flaws of games I don't care about so many times that I tend to just zone out now whenever someone tries to.
  • Scott, the manual talks about both the focus attack and the armor, as well as super canceling. At least in the 360 manual. But the thing you didn't mention about the armor/focus attack is that it only works for the first attack. If you are hit more then once in a focus you take the damage absorbed in the first hit, as well as the damage of the second hit.
    That's pretty good. I admit I have never seen this manual because I bought the game on Steam. Also, I wrongly assumed the new manual would be similar to manuals I usually get with games nowadays, sparse as all hell.

    Also, even though the manual might say these things, I highly doubt it describes them in enough detail for an absolute newb to learn them.

    Humor me and find the instructions in the manual on how to do a hadouken. D, DF, F, P is not enough! Shoryuken is even worse. No newb is going to understand the 'Z' motion. When I was a kid playing SF2CE on Genesis, I knew that a Shoryuken was F, D, DF, P. Still, I was never able to do them with any reliability, even in the arcade. It was basically random. I blame the inadequate instructions because thanks to Youtube and such I was finally able to get it down. Because it only required instruction, and not practice, it's not a skill, it's knowledge.
    Another VERY useful shortcut. DF, D, DF will do a shoryuken. (Or any other z pattern move.) Not only is this quicker, easier, and more consistent it allows you do to the z motion without standing up. Considering that z motion moves are usually anti air moves this is very useful.
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