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My bladesmithing projects

edited April 2010 in Everything Else
I just noticed I don't have any of my great grandpa's forge on my flickr, I'm a 4th-6th gen (depending on which part of the family you trace, I have multiple lines of this stuff) metal worker. Forging stuff is apparently in my blood.

I have some other stuff I've done up there, still looking to sell that dagger, but it won't be around long. If anyone is interested in either hearing about making knives and metal working/metallurgy or is interested in having me make something let me know. This is really my passion.
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Comments

  • I see what you did there with the BBQ and hairdryer. Your work looks very clean. I'm gonna assume you've been doing this for nearly your entire life, if it's in your family.
  • I know absolutely nothing about this subject, but that's pretty much incredibly awesome.
  • Do you stick to charcoal-fired forges (I'm assuming that'swhat the barbecue MacGuyver is; pretty sweet) or do you also use arc and plasma furnaces?
  • edited April 2010
    I would like to pretend that it's something I've done all my life, but no, unfortunately not. the previous generation didn't actually have any metalworkers, although there are several very skilled craftsmen. My grandpa on my dad's side, and his father and his father were all blacksmith's or at least worked metal most of their lives. On my mom's side, her uncle, knows how to work metal, my great grandfather was famous in minnesota for making fishing spears (Clark spears, I have one, super rare and very sought after in that area), and his father was a toolmaker.

    As for me, I've been around knives all my life (German and Slavic family, lots of old country child rearing methods) and am totally fascinated by them. I actually don't remember a point in my life when I didn't own a knife. So for the past couple years I started to look into making them and kind of went on a holy quest to learn how to forge knives. So after a relatively short period of time I got pretty good at doing what I do, I'm going to say that I'm good at this kind of stuff because it's in my blood. More likely though it's because of the dedication I have to learning and actually doing this stuff.

    If you want to know what makes a good knife I can tell you all about it. Just tell me what the knife is for and I can tell you what design is best for it, what kind of steel is suited to the work, and which temper works best. I can tell you all about sharpening and how to make things into a razor blade, or how to make a strong edge that will last a long time. Also I can tell you the process of forging too. The pics on my flickr can help to show what I'm talking about.

    Edit: I use coal forges exclusively now. I don't believe there are arc/plasma forges, although there are gas forges which use a mix of LPG (liquid petroleum gas or something along those lines, some kind of flammable gas) although they are quite expensive to buy. Eventually I may make one, but the coal forge is what I'm sticking with for the moment, it's a decent size, it won't explode, and it works very efficiently. The gas one will be more for forge welding/ sword tempering when I work up to that. I need to make some money back before I go there though.
    Post edited by Sova on
  • edited April 2010
    I actually don't remember a point in my life when I didn't own a knife. So for the past couple years I started to look into making them and kind of went on a holy quest to learn how to forge knives.
    This is how I now picture you:

    image

    Say I wanted to learn some basic forging. What's the best way to get started? I was way into firing my own crucible steel a while back, but I don't have the space for a forge. That might soon change; I have some family members who might be willing to let me build a small furnace on their property.
    Post edited by WindUpBird on
  • edited April 2010
    Lol, I have pics of myself on Flickr. I'm actually pure cracker. German Russian and Irish (vikings who settled in northern Ireland). So pretty much exactly like that but kind of a bigot and pale like ghost.

    I love how corny that movie is. It created a whole group of people who talk shit non stop about katanas, yet who know nothing whatsoever about them. The folded steel bit is kind of a misnomer as it has nothing to do with the edge, it's just to brace the sides of the sword so the thing doesn't snap off in battle due to it's extreme brittleness.

    Although the actor is a total badass, especially when he throws that knife behind him to the magnet. I love that part.
    Post edited by Sova on
  • Although the actor is a total badass, especially when he throws that knife behind him to the magnet. I love that part.
    Well, it IS Sonny Chiba.
  • edited April 2010
    This is true. He's a tiny deity disguised as a man. Seriously, he whips that thing behind him like a madman on speed, but there's a magnet. Pure cinematic awesome.

    I forgot to mention about swords, I'm actually proficient in a couple styles of swordsmanship. I'm strongest with a russian sabre, but I know the fundamentals of using a katana and a german longsword, although my actual experience against a live opponent with them is limited. I get to pull out the training shashka and hit people with it fairly often with my systema training. The Cossacks could split a man to the saddle with one blow, and the sword is only a few lbs, that's pretty impressive if you ask me. Also superior for parrying/deflecting and going into a brutal counter attack. When in doubt move then go for the largest unprotected blood vessel right?

    Let me throw a question out there, whoever gets it gets some kudos. How did the Japanese smiths get their ferrous alloys, that's iron and steel when you remove the jargon?
    Post edited by Sova on
  • You can make your own gas forge for a much smaller budget than the big, expensive ones, but like I said in the other thread, they are pretty small. big enough for small knives, but not much of anything bigger. That's what the ammo can and coffee can forges use for fuel: just plain propane.
  • The one I plan on building is quite large. I have plans from the book 'the master bladesmith' that is large enough to forge zweihaders in. I'm talking full size full function blade making operation at that point though, because it would be a total pain to move something that large. It would also take a few hundred dollars to construct as well. The idea is to do this full time eventually.

    The only reason I would use a gas forge is to make pattern welded blades, or to work on a very large piece, specifically for quenching and tempering. The gas forge also has the advantage of eliminating most of the O2 in the burn space, meaning those metals that tend to oxidize can be worked more easily. Also the gas doesn't form clinkers which are a major irritation.
  • edited April 2010
    It would also take a few hundred dollars to construct as well. The idea is to do this full time eventually.
    Hey, it's cheaper than a microbrewery.

    EDIT: Are there any regulations that you need to conform to when selling blades? Register with this agency, pay this sort of fee, etc?
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • The only reason I would use a gas forge is to make pattern welded blades, or to work on a very large piece, specifically for quenching and tempering. The gas forge also has the advantage of eliminating most of the O2 in the burn space, meaning those metals that tend to oxidize can be worked more easily. Also the gas doesn't form clinkers which are a major irritation.
    The fact that I undestood the terms you used in this paragraph despite the fact that I have never done any smithing myself makes me kind of proud.
  • edited April 2010
    No, think about trying to regulate knife sales. That would be a dark orwellian day indeed, you can make a knife out of pretty much any hard substance, so unless you regulate all hard substances it can't be done. There are bladesmithing guilds that you can go to to get certified as a master bladesmith, but I'm not working on that at the moment.

    here are the laws though, those ones are specific to some place, but they are the general standard from what I can tell. You don't need a special permit, but depending on where you are it's illegal to sell certain blade lengths to people under the age of 18. Knife laws are generally dumb, but what can you do?
    Post edited by Sova on
  • Knife laws are generally dumb, but what can you do?
    They're nowhere near as dumb as alcohol laws, but yeah, I agree.

    That's cool! Sounds like you've got a nice cottage industry to explore.
  • Heheheh, something like that. Most of my buddies are military guys, so I'm getting a lot of requests like that dagger, mostly killing knives. That thing can tickle your heart from below or above your ribcage.
  • How much would you charge for a blade? I'd really like a real small ninjato if you know how to make it.
  • What size are we talking? Prices are roughly $150-300 depending on size, materials used and difficulty of project. I'll make knives, but right now I'm not making swords as they are very large projects and require more time and space than I have.
  • I was thinking maybe a little over a foot long. I don't know if you have the right stuff to make it though, because what I've seen about making japanese swords is much harder because you have to have 2 different kinds of steels heated at just the right temperature for just the right amount of time. If you could do it though, it would be pretty sweet. I think it would definitely be one of those things you would want to experiment a lot with before you went trying to sell any.
  • edited April 2010
    Lol, yeah, it has a lot more to do with forge welding, etc, etc, but it's mostly time consuming. There are actually four parts, and iron spine, steel edge, and two laminated sides. It just takes a lot of time and effort to deal with that kind of stuff properly and I'm about to move soon so I'm not really looking to get into making that. It would be classified as a small sword at that point, and I'd be charging around $500 for that because of the frustration of forge welding so much and the all of the proper dressing etc.

    I do know how to make that style of knife, but I'm really not that into making them because they are crazy time consuming. you have to hand sand and polish the blade for hours to get it to look right. It takes daaaaayyysss and if you mess up and miss something you'll be back a few hours. If you'd ever done it you could understand why I'm not a huge fan of them.

    I'm currently making things in more of the knife range, so a blade length of under 1 foot. I have to forge out and clean up the tang too, so the whole thing is actually larger, and the forge I'm working with right now just isn't big enough and I need to sell more knives before I start spending too much more money to make one.

    If I do ever make one I'll let you know though. I'm kinda thinking about making a khopesh or khukri style knife. Or maybe an ax, axes are awesome tools

    I could make a badass tanto style knife though. Rather than folding steel and iron for a few days I'd just use 1075 or so steel which is pretty much exactly the same thing, just with modern technology making the metal better really. There are some pretty good looking knives you can make in that style, and anything I forge holds a razor edge, and if you take care of it (don't go trying to cut through granite or other stupid things) it'll hold for a long time too.
    Post edited by Sova on
  • I do know how to make that style of knife, but I'm really not that into making them because they are crazy time consuming. you have to hand sand and polish the blade for hours to get it to look right. It takes daaaaayyysss and if you mess up and miss something you'll be back a few hours. If you'd ever done it you could understand why I'm not a huge fan of them.
    Oh I know. I've seen a couple show's on how they make katanas and it was crazy how careful you have to be.
    If I do ever make one I'll let you know though. I'm kinda thinking about making a khopesh or khukri style knife. Or maybe an ax, axes are awesome tools
    Ok, sweet man. I'd probably buy one if you started making any swords. I mean $500 really isn't bad at all considering that it's like $3000 to buy a real japanese one, and not a shitty decoration.
    I could make a badass tanto style knife though. Rather than folding steel and iron for a few days I'd just use 1075 or so steel which is pretty much exactly the same thing, just with modern technology making the metal better really. There are some pretty good looking knives you can make in that style, and anything I forge holds a razor edge, and if you take care of it (don't go trying to cut through granite or other stupid things) it'll hold for a long time too.
    That would be sweet. How much would you charge for one of those? I mean that would be something I could actually use (sort of), instead of it just being a sword I want because I'm a nerd.
  • about $175 plus tax for one without fancy materials used on the handle/sheath. If you want to get into more fancy and expensive woods and enamels it would be a bit more expensive. Keep in mind that I'm not walmart and I'm willing to barter a bit, but that's a great deal as it is.

    If you have stuff I want and are willing to trade it to me I have no issues with that though.
  • That would be cool man. I mean I don't have the cash for it now or anything, but in the future I'd probably be up for buying one. I would consider trading if I thought I had anything you wanted that I was willing to trade, but I don't really think I do. I don't really have a lot of nice knives or anything like that. The majority of mine are cheap pocket knives that I just picked up for a few dollars here and there. What else would you be interested in besides knives and whatnot?
  • Oh, I'm not really interested in getting knives, lol. I have a crazy knife collection and I don't really want to expand it unless it's a very special knife, something handmade by someone or a sacred knife or something along those lines. I mean more like stuff I need in my life, something like computer parts or one of the new ds's or stuff like that. If I need something I'm willing to give the knife for the object I need, even if that object is supposed to be worth less than the knife. It's flexible, but I'm not going to send someone a $400 knife for like a $15 dollar book obviously. I'm about to move right now, so I'm not in any dire need of any physical things, but I do need a website made, or really just a template filled in and made to look on par with a web 2.0 kind of site.
  • Oh, ok. Well that works considering I don't really have any knives worth anything. Um I don't really have any newer stuff like a DS I'd be willing to trade. Would you be interested in any older videogames? I've literally got a shitload of Atari games. And I've got quite a few sega genesis 2's, but that really isn't anything you need. I don't really know much about web design, but I bet you might be able to get somebody on here to do it.
  • edited April 2010
    Like I said, right now I don't need much because I'm moving in the next couple weeks, but as things come up I'll let people know. Anything that is really generally useful is a candidate really. I'm going to need copies of these eventually. I wouldn't mind having a trumpet again. I'm looking to get a book published when I finish it, although I can do that on lulu.com I plan on moving on to something more mainstream. I'm working on making a game in xna and I need 16 bit style art and sprite animation stuff. Let me know what you can do or things that are useful and I might be willing to trade. It just has to add up to roughly the value of the knife and I'm happy.

    The beauty of barter is that there aren't limits other than what is actually useful. I like to keep things plain and useful, so some stuff obviously isn't going to be useful to me, but this kind of trading is a good way to recycle what otherwise would end up in a landfill. Also things that are broken but made out of good steel are always welcome. Files, car leaf springs, stuff that's solid and in a somewhat decent shape.

    Hmm, maybe we should get a barter topic on here. Need x, have y and Z to offer. Redistribution of goods is very lacking in our society with the throw it away and buy one from a wal-mart attitude.
    Post edited by Sova on
  • If you have time, I'd love to hear about Viking forging and why it's superior. ^_^
  • I have to go to work right now, but when I'm done I'll give you a long interesting answer.
  • If you have time, I'd love to hear about Viking forging and why it's superior. ^_^
    We have a thing for hammers.
  • edited April 2010
    AAAAllllright, time for some learnin.

    First I'll tell you about how katanas are actually made, the various styles etc. Something only vaguely understood by most people. The lowest quality is called kataha, which is where a bar of steel is welded to a bar of iron, making a billet with one hard side and one soft side. These were used to make kitchen knives and tools like that.

    Next up in quality is the suyeha, which is where the steel is welded along the edge of a piece of iron. These were really haphazard and pretty shitty.

    The wariha method is where the edge of the iron bar is split open and the steel inserted into the edge and welded in. Marginally less shitty than the suyeha method.

    The kobushi method involved forming the steel into a V cross section and inserting a soft piece of iron into the back of it, then welding it shut.

    The uchimaki or awase ni mai method involves folding the kataha bar steel side inward and welding together. The steel would stick out and be forged into the cutting edge.

    The moroha blades were made wrapping a iron jacket around a steel core from end to end, not around the edges.

    Now all of those methods were looked down upon by the Japanese smiths however. They were seen as second rate at best, but if done right could yield a decent blade.

    Now the method that they saw as making a decent blade without lamination was ori awasi san mai. This was accomplished by making a suyeha bar and sandwiching it between two layers of iron and welding them all together.

    Now that you know some of the basic stuff, there is the method everyone talks about and nobody seems to understand. It is called shihozume and represents the height of Japanese swordmaking tradition. It was accomplished by making a suyeha bar, then making two laminated bars, where all the 'folds' are hiding. Then these would be assembled in the same way as the ori awasi san mai method, only instead of sandwiching the suyeha bar with iron, they used the steel laminations.

    So effectively you have a core made up of iron on one side, and steel on the other (the steel side became the blade, the iron became the spine. The two sides, where no cutting took place I want to point out for all of the crazy people, acted like springs to stop the whole thing from snapping apart.

    Now I'll tell you a little about how they got their ferrous alloys. They would pan it out of rivers like prospectors would do for gold during the gold rush days in the U.S. Then that iron would be smelted into a bar in a kind of oven that melted it and allowed it to collect at the bottom. The head smith who had years of practice would be required just to tell what parts weren't total garbage. The overall quality was ok, but nothing amazing in my opinion. There is a reason that Japan has bought all of Germany's steel refineries today. Germans just produce better quality steel. They have for a long time too.

    Anyway, now we get to the viking sword techniques. There are only two, I'll refer to them as the common and the composite. The common was the standard that mostly nobles used, the composite was basically too expensive for anyone but kings or crazy rich people. Like worth a small fortune, excalibur type stuff here.

    The common was made like this. First damascus (laminated iron and steel) bars were made, varying from 7 to 64 layers. Then they were twisted, which formed something like a cable, only fully welded together. Then anywhere from 2 to 4 or more where we welded together to form the core of the sword. Then a piece of steel was welded around the entire edge of this core (the core was amazing at absorbing shock, it was after all like having four or five high tension cables at the centre) and the whole thing was forged into a blade.

    The other method was similar, only it had more twisted layers for the core, then after the core was welded, it was split in half from end to end, creating two mirrored side plates. These were then welded to an iron core for even more shock absorption and toughness, then the steel edge was welded around the edge of that core.

    Because of the core itself being comprised of incredibly durable twisted damascus steel, sometimes with an iron center the overall toughness of the blade was multiplied hundred fold. A katana is a fairly brittle sword and can't deal with much pressure against it's flats or else it is prone to snapping, while these swords were insanely durable. Also they had access to better quality ore, and more of it allowing for more durable blades overall. The best example being the Sutton Hoo find in Suffolk, England and is believed to be from around 670 A.D. Anyways they found a sword there that would have cost a huge fortune to make, and is comprised of at least 9 pieces of twisted steel.
    Post edited by Sova on
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