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GeekNights 20100621 - Network Neutrality

edited June 2010 in GeekNights

Tonight on GeekNights, we discuss our favorite topic: network neutrality. In the news, AOL, Nullsoft, and VLC are in the news, people complain about Twitter for the wrong reasons, and e-readers are getting surprisingly cheaper.

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  • Isn't a shoutcast stream just an MP3 Stream?
  • I don't support any government action in this area (or in many areas for that matter) maybe if we got rid of the government supported ISP monopolies then your fears fade away.
  • edited June 2010
    I knew exactly where Scott was going as soon as he said it was the one thing e-readers lacked. I too, am a book smeller. They gotta make some fucking air fresheners that smell like that.

    Scott's mic cut out for like 5 seconds, beginning at 27:11
    Post edited by Pegu on
  • I don't support any government action in this area (or in many areas for that matter) maybe if we got rid of the government supported ISP monopolies then your fears fade away.
    Government supported ISP monopolies? Surely you jest?
  • edited June 2010
    Rym's thing of the day reminded me of something a publisher of comics mentioned in panel once that people were told not to use the word flick since a bad copy could easily become fuck.
    Post edited by ZakoSoldier on
  • In the news,AOL, Nullsoft, and VLCare in the news
    Shitty company demands shitty developers of shitty software to remove a shitty plugin that supports their shitty shoutcast. That's some crap news.
  • edited June 2010
    Rym's thing of the day reminded me of something a publisher of comics mentioned in panel once that people were told not to use the word flick since a bad copy could easily become fuck.
    With the way hand-lettering was done it was very easy for the letters to blur together during the printing process. Cheap paper didn't help that any, either. The "LI" could be misread as a "U", so there was no way in hell you'd ever have a guy in a book named "CLINT FLICKER". The modern era of lettering has changed things up a bit, so instead of poor bleed between letters leading to errors we end up with the unintentional humor of spell-checkers hosing up the script before the person doing the layout in Illustrator pastes the word balloons in.
    Post edited by Techparadox on
  • I looked at that image for a loooong time before working out that it actually said "Final".
  • edited June 2010
    I looked at that image for a loooong time before working out that it actually said "Final".
    image
    Post edited by Victor Frost on
  • I looked at that image for a loooong time before working out that it actually said "Final".
    image
    No, I wasn't making a joke. I was thinking "Anal Fantasy tactics... right. What's wrong with this article?" I did, however, think that "ANAL" meant "very particular". As in, "This gamer is very anal about his tactics" and presumed the fantasy bit meant he was being anal about tactics that didn't exist... so fantasy tactics...
  • edited June 2010
    Expanded Show Notes!

    Geeknights 20100621 - Network Neutrality

    Expanded Show Notes - Show Run Time: 01:04:31

    Time | Notes
    ---------+----------------------------------------------------------
    00:00:00 | Intro
    00:00:24 | Opening Chit-Chat
    | - It's the first day of summer!
    | - Time Zones
    | - Warm today. Warm yesterday. Even warmer today.
    | - Every in-joke ever
    | - Rym is attending the SIFMA Expo this week
    00:06:14 | News
    | = E-readers in the news
    | - Price drop on the Nook e-reader - now $150 for the Wi-Fi only version
    | - No word yet from Amazon on their price
    | - Used books versus new books versus e-books
    | - Rym's last used book smelled of lox (Mmmmm, bagels and lox...)
    | - Value analysis of an e-reader versus an iPad
    | - The book reading experience (Scott needs that "book smell")
    | - Tangent on Collectible Card Games and their variants
    00:13:38 | = Twitter in the news
    | - Utah Attorney General tweets the kill order for death row prisoner
    | - Internet in an uproar, but it's not really that newsworthy
    | - People don't respect new media
    | - Engineers don't like Twitter
    | - Too many people don't get how Twitter works
    00:21:13 | = VLC in the news
    | - AOL has forced VLC to remove Shoutcast support from their video/audio player
    | - But does anybody out there really care?
    | - Shoutcast license not compatible with GPL license (and is almost anti-GPL)
    | - Licensing discussion - MIT/BSD vs. GPL
    | - VLC would have to bundle adware to keep Shoutcast
    00:25:59 | Things of the Day
    | - Scott - Pi is wrong? (Two Pi or not Two Pi, that is the question...)
    | - Rym - Something Fantasy (or, Poor Typography Choices)
    00:29:59 | Meta Moment
    | - ConnectiCon 2010 is July 9-11
    | - Book Club: The Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch
    | - Pax Prime is September 3-5 (Labor Day Weekend)
    | - Geeknights is broadcast on Ustream (when we remember to turn the camera on)
    | - Be sure to check out the website and forums at www.frontrowcrew.com!
    00:31:53 | Main Topic - Network Neutrality
    | - Geeknights hasn't done a whole show on Net Neutrality before, but it has had mentions
    | - Only tech professionals seem to properly understand it AND care about it
    | - It doesn't say anywhere that networks have to remain neutral... BUT IT SHOULD!
    | - There is no overall law governing the internet
    | - The government could regulate the whole mess, but that means no more "wild west"
    | - Most of the internet should be unregulated
    | - Evil Companies and How much evil are you willing to put up with?
    | - The law can't keep up with the speed of the internet
    | - Professional Opinion Time: We need Network Neutrality, not Internet Neutrality
    | - The base of the network should not be aware of the content residing on it
    | - ISPs started getting snarky about who could send traffic across their networks
    | - Analogy of how the internet works in comparison to hitch-hiking
    | - We need a completely open, dumb baseline infrastructure
    | - Discussion of Regulation of ISPs
    | - Discussion of the real motivation behind the death of Napster, et al.
    | - Discussion of "Why pirate now when you can get legal media for free?"
    | - Discussion of Bandwidth Caps, Metering, and Reasonable Rates
    | - The world where people have more bandwidth is the world where content providers can cut out the middleman
    | - Data transport at the last mile and at the high ISP level should be data-agnostic
    | - The Last-Mile providers should not be able to have content production capability
    | - The ISPs should essentially be a utility
    | - The problem with a la carte pricing in relation to net neutrality
    | - Discussion of TV Production Houses, Advertisers, and other vested interests
    | - The internet destroys all middlemen - only service/utility providers will remain
    01:03:35 | Outro
    Post edited by Techparadox on
  • edited June 2010
    ok, now that that's out of the way, my thoughts:

    e-Readers: While I'll admit the Nook's price drop is tempting, it's going to take a bit more than that to get me to buy an e-reader. Like Scott has a list of things that'd make an MP3/personal media device better, I have a list of stuff that needs to be in an e-reader before I take the plunge. I must say that the Nook strikes me as a better platform than the Kindle, though - more open in regards to formats + based on Android = a partial win in my mind.

    Twitter: While I do think it was a bit tacky for the Atty General to broadcast the notice over Twitter, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with it - it's a valid medium. As for the Engineers who don't like Twitter, apparently they have forgotten Sturgeon's Law. Besides, no one is going to force them to use it.

    VLC: Does anybody really use Shoutcast servers anymore? I'd think that Pandora and last.fm would have pretty much killed Shoutcast as an internet radio source. It appears that VLC has started packaging in Icecast instead, so methinks it's going to be a moot point and AOL has succeeded in doing nothing but shooting themselves in the dick on this one.

    Just for Scott:
    image
    Yeah, it's a Pizza Pi

    As for the main topic, I'd have to say I'm right with you guys on that one - Internet access should be treated as a utility with standardized, fair metering and the content providers should be kept the hell away from being ISPs or striking sweetheart deals with the ISPs.
    Post edited by Techparadox on
  • edited June 2010
    Here's the Symphony of Science website.. the place that creates the Cosmos / Carl Segan autotune videos on Youtube the Rym was talking about a while back. I don't know if anyone mentioned it again in another episode. It started out as one youtube vid and now it's a full on science project... enjoy

    http://symphonyofscience.com/

    this is their latest video...



    P.S. I didn't want to make a whole new thread for this so I just dumped it in here...
    Post edited by amira e on
  • Have you started on "Red Seas Under Red Skies" yet ?
    I can't wait for the next book club episode!
    I ended up getting the audio book of "The Lies of Locke Lamora", listened to it in two days .
  • This episode doesn't seem to be Scott bitching about how he can't watch the world cup, maybe I'll have a listen.
  • Have you started on "Red Seas Under Red Skies" yet ?
    I got it, but it's not on top of the list.
  • | - Pax Prime is September 3-5 (Labor Day Weekend)
    Rym, as a frequent traveler I can agree that US Airways is the big burly man of the sky, waiting to accost you at your most vulnerable moment. They're not even gentle about their fuckery, in my experience only offering a third to a quarter of what other airlines pay out in credit for being bumped.

    I had been tracking PAX flight prices since we decided we were definitely going (the day after PAX East), and noticed a crazy price drop on April 14th. Pulled the trigger then and haven't seen anything better since. Yapta.com is really good for inputting a list of flights you want to track, and they email you alerts based on pricing changes.

    Got a great flight on Continental for $308. There have been flights since just as cheap but they have not been A) non-stop, and B) put me at the hotel right at check-in time on Thursday, so I can partake in the pre-PAX events (PAX forum stuff, although I wouldn't be opposed to eating or gaming with any of you gents if this forum has got gatherings going on). So I guess mid-April might be a sweet spot for Labor Day weekend flights?

    Continental 1581 Thu, Sep 02 out of Newark International (EWR)
    9:00 AM - 11:53 AM
    Leaving on a 3PM flight on Monday so we can sleep in.

    If you've got free Continental miles coming your way as you mentioned in the show, you're probably flying out of EWR as that's their hub, but it's definitely a hike compared to the other airports if you guys are coming from Queens. Probably like an hour worth of train hopping, or a $50 flat-fee car service each way.
  • Relevant. Though admittedly, the guy has no real evidence to support his claim, he's just making assumptions.
  • The quckest way to kill broadband deployment in the US is to put Network Neutrality in place.
  • Do go on..
  • Do go on..
    Let me be an asshole and try to predict his argument:

    blah blah blah companies won't invest in infrastructure blah blah blah disproven argument that it'll raise prices blah blah blah republican talking point.
  • The quckest way to kill broadband deployment in the rural US is to put Network Neutrality in place.
    Also, I disagree. How many places wouldn't have electricity or water/sewer were it not for government subsidy? If Internet access were treated like a utility, it would likely have broader reach in places with less human capital and population density.

    I fail to see how enforcing utility status for data carriers will prevent them from expanding.
  • edited June 2010
    Do go on..
    Let me be an asshole and try to predict his argument:

    blah blah blah companies won't invest in infrastructure blah blah blah disproven argument that it'll raise prices blah blah blah republican talking point.
    So the cost of internet access would go up. You can't dismiss economics from any argument by tagging it as partisan politics. Personally I'd be willing to pay more to a company that pledged to provide data agnostic access.

    My big beef with internet access and pricing is the lack of competition. I'm not going to pretend to understand all the history behind municipal contracts and last-mile rights as to who owns the cables and fibers, but someone needs to sort this shit out eventually. How does the old landline phone system work? Obviously, you could switch home phone providers and they didn't have to send someone out to your house to lay cable. Is this because it is deemed to be a utility? If so, then I fully support making internet access one as well.
    Post edited by Matt on
  • Republican talking point was intended to be a separate item from raising prices, to cover such things as "OMG TEH FARINESS DOCTRINE WILL BE ON TEH INTARWEBTUBES!"
  • I have some issues with your comments on network neutrality.
    What is wrong with a content provider selectively denying service based on your ISP? Take for example, the UK, where Brits pay a license fee to the BBC and in return get access to BBC content. Some of this content is distributed online, and the BBC blocks access (or tries to, at least) for those outside the country, based on their IP. Why would you find this immoral? Surely any end node receiving a HTTP GET (or whatever) should have the right to respond to it however they like? If I want to restrict access to my friends who've already emailed me their static IPs, or to people who have at least 3 prime octets, why shouldn't I have that right?

    Also, why do you consider Chinese censorship a network neutrality issue? Say I set up my home router to filter what traffic my kids can see. As far as I understand, that's the same idea as what China is doing; the only difference is scale. If you think it's immoral for them to treat their citizens that way, sure, but that's a political freedom issue, not a net neutrality one. If scale matters, when does it start to matter? Is it okay for a university to do the same? A smaller country like Monaco?
  • Aha makes a lot more sense! I know people who have tried to make that argument, and the best way to (attempt) to rationally explain things to them is by saying a Fairness Doctrine on the internet would be ISPs saying "Looks like 70% of our subscribers have been using Google for their searches, gonna have to redirect those requests to Yahoo and Bing for the next few hours to even things out for the day", all in the interest of giving everyone an equal share. I think we can all agree that will never happen.
  • edited June 2010
    The problems that occurred with unbundling in the USA after the 1996 Telecomunications are well documented. While the law was intended to allow new companies to get into the market (bring competition) quick and then build infrastructure later it did not materialize. Instead most "broadband" companies would simply resell existing Telco equipment and take the profit while never building any actual infrastructure. Even the ones that did start to install DSL equipment in Telco offices stopped doing so and instead reverted to reselling existing Telco equipment.

    You can't blame them because they got a real sweet deal. If the Telco would sell a 1.5 DSL service to a customer for $30 a month the new competitor could get that same line at a wholesale cost of about $20 and resell it for $25. Why spend millions of dollars to install your own equipment when you could just resell someone else's equipment for pure profit?

    Do you know why Broadband picked up in the USA? It is because of HR 1542 The Internet Freedom and Broadband Deployment Act of 2001. This is the legislation that fixed the reselling loophole and promised to keep the FCC from regulating the Internet.

    Further reading:

    S.652 -- Telecommunications Act of 1996
    H.R. 1542 —Internet Freedom and Broadband Deployment Act
    RUPRI - The Internet Freedom and Broadband Deployment Act of 2001 (H.R. 1542): Considerations for Rural Communities
    Post edited by HMTKSteve on
  • but someone needs to sort this shit out eventually.
    I predict wireless connections will sort out last mile issues eventually.
  • I predict wireless connections will sort out last mile issues eventually.
    The trouble is that wireless is self-limiting in that without strange advances in the technology, the only way to increase bandwidth is to decrease reliability or increase power. Short of theoretical physical limits, wires and fiber will for the foreseeable future always substantially outperform it.

    You're right, though, just in a broader sense. Imagine the following scenario:

    Wires (with the bullshit from the ISPs and issues with the government) for low-latency services like gaming, day-to-day communications, and high performance needs.
    Wireless (with the bullshit from the ISPs and issues with the government) for normal people who don't need high performance and don't care otherwise.
    Wireless (pirate-style) for all of the "bad" things

    Whenever we have a revolution in the ad-hoc wireless networking sphere, it will open the door to high-latency anonymous (relatively) unblockable communication.
  • Yeah, I don't mean for broadband, but for net neutrality and ubiquitous access. Enough people will have random wifi and connection points all over the place, and you'll havea huge choice of network paths through the first mile, let alone the infrastructure of the internet itself.
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