This forum is in permanent archive mode. Our new active community can be found here.

GeekNights 070328 - To Terra

RymRym
edited March 2007 in Manga/Comics

Tonight on GeekNights we review volume one of Keiko Takemiya's To Terra. In the news, Pokemon is a decade old, and 5 cm per Second has a torrent.

Scott's Thing - Mecha Image of the Day
Rym's Thing - Challenger On Fire: Name 100 Anime Characters

«13

Comments

  • I randomly watched the To Terra/Towards the Terra anime movie a while back. Interesting story, but the ending was.... strange.
  • RymRym
    edited March 2007
    Apparently Clarissa over at aWo went nuts about an email Scott wrote to them a while back asking why it was marketed as shoujo. I haven't heard it yet, but I'm told she built a nice straw man and then tried to burn it... ^_~
    Post edited by Rym on
  • Apparently Clarissa over at aWo went nuts about an email Scott wrote to them a while back asking why it was marketed as shoujo. I haven't heard it yet, but I'm told she built a nice straw man and then tried to burn it... ^_~
    She's adding fuel to the fire. Scary. Do you think she hates us for some reason? Maybe she's friends with that beefy guy from the voice mail episode.
  • To quote Clarissa:

    "Even if it was shojo, you would still be a condescending sexist asshole."

    Scott just really doesn't strike it with the ladies ^_^
  • edited March 2007
    Ah, someone seems to believe that it's bad to have different beliefs about different genders.

    Listen up, fem-nazis. It's okay to believe whatever you want about whomever you want, even if that person is a different race, gender, religion, social class, or other tribal antecedent than you. It's not okay to discriminate based on such criteria. If Scott were an employer who didn't hire women, or perhaps a police officer who was more likely to arrest women, then, yes, there would be a problem. I don't think that's the case here.

    Everybody has a right to equal treatment under the law.

    Nobody has a right not to be offended. Nobody, anywhere, ever.

    It would be nice if everyone treated everyone else like a loved family member. We should all try to be better people. Etc etc. But nobody has any right to try to force such a belief on anyone, nor to force anyone to behave as if they have such a belief. Otherwise, you're just stealing freedom from one group of people and giving it to another.

    So yeah, maybe Scott's a sexist. I'm not gonna be the one to say. I sure am, in that I believe there are quantitative and qualitative differences between the sexes. I believe those differences should be discussed--indeed, loudly trumpeted--and also celebrated. We should all explore our masculinity and femininity of the human being, from every angle.

    And we should never, ever, try to limit free speech by labeling people. Yeah, that goes for you, "fem-nazis". </irony>
    Post edited by kenjura on
  • Here is the original e-mail. You tell me if you think I'm a sexist or not.
    Alright guys, here is a tough question that might require all of your powers combined to answer. I just read To Terra vol. 1 from Vertical. The sales pitch they've been using is that this thing is shoujou Star Trek. The creator Keiko Takemiya is supposedly a great shoujo manga master. After reading it, all I can say is that I don't notice any shoujo at all. This is a straight up epic sci-fi manga. I mean, this shit is awesome. I don't want to say it, but I might have to say it is on Tezuka's level. I never thought anything could be better than Phoenix, but this has the potential. It all depends on what happens in the rest of the volumes.

    Anyway. How the hell is this shoujo? The character designs are a little bit shoujoish, but other than that I notice nothing that makes To Terra a shoujo manga. I mean, if this is shoujo, then so is Phoenix vol. 2. What's the deal? Is there going to be some hidden BL in vol. 2 that I'm not prepared for? Warn me now!

    Also, there's a To Terra anime coming out in April. If it's as good as this manga, all I can say is w00t!
    There have been some replies in both directions, but I'll save those for later.
  • RymRym
    edited March 2007
    Clarissa's main argument seems to be that "shoujo" is not a genre, and that it's sexist to treat it like one.
    To reiterate and sum up in hopes of you getting it this time: shoujo != content genres like sci-fi/fantasy/romance; shoujo == target audience of young to teenage girls. If you can't understand how that can include scifi works, espcially very well done ones, then I'm sorry, you *are* a sexist, sanctimonious ass.

    But what do I know? I'm just an illiterate girl filled with all those crazy-making hormones, and you big smarty pants guys are clearly superior fans enough to make up your own definitions of shoujo!
    Ask the average anime fan on the street, and they'll tell you shoujo is a genre. Ask them what that genre entails, and they'll give fairly consistent, content-based answers.

    It's likely a product of the way manga has been marketed in the US, coupled with the kinds of works released, but the fact remains that Americans identify shoujo as a content genre MUCH MORESO than they do anything else.

    I also note that Anne Ishii, Vertical's director of marketing and publicity, said that, in To Terra, "there are shojo elements and homoeroticism that are apparent in later volumes. But the adventure is a strong shonen element."

    Funny, but it almost sounds like Anne is talking about shoujo like it's a content genre. How else could you describe a manga as having "shoujo elements"?

    Like it or not, the common usage of the word shoujo in the US refers to style and content genres, NOT demographic genres.

    It really sounds like Clarissa has a bug up her butt and decided to jump down Scott's throat over a minor point. It also sounds like she doesn't exactly understand what "sanctimonious" means, since I'd hardly have called Scott's emails such... ^_~
    Post edited by Rym on
  • edited March 2007
    @ kenjura

    Did you even listen to the AWO episode before you wrote that?????? I'm not even gonna honor a reply to that other than it doesn't have anything to do with what I posted previously except taking only the quote... while some of the ideas were of merit, they weren't relevant to the conversation...
    Post edited by Corbin on
  • edited March 2007
    About Scott's email, I think Clarissa took his comments out of context and totally ignored that the American view of shojo and the Japanese view of shojo is much different. While I like her "purist" viewpoint, the majority of people do not think about it that way. Also I don't think Scott was saying at all that a shojo work could not be as good at Tezuka solely because it was shojo, it sounds more to me that it is because Tezuka is on such a high pedestal and hard to reach as Daryl said. Other than that I think Clarissa took it a bit too far with the whole character attacks of Rym and Scott at the end of her rant.
    Post edited by Corbin on
  • Does anyone else get the feeling Clarissa secretly hates us for some unknown reason?
  • Why would she take offense at Scott over this? I mean, all of us here know that Rym and Scott are gay. So it seems to me that if anyone would know shoujo it would be them!

    Maybe she is just jealous...
  • I think she's secretly got the hots for you Scott
  • I do not think that Clarissa hates you guys. I think that she is disappointed at you. In the begging I saw as shoujo as a gender only for girls but it is not, shoujo can be appreciated and created for women and men alike. I personally believe that some manga works go beyond the gender. Yeah they are release to one specific audience but they get to a point when those works become so brilliant they cannot be put into a "gender". One example is Phoenix ( I have not read To Terra so I can't comment), Phoenix is a compendium of everything that in my opinion is humanity, it has everything. It is sad to know that the end of that manga will never be connected together. Maybe, since Naoki Urasawa was re-visioning Astroboy he can also see the connection on Phoenix. A guy can dream right?
  • Considering that I read more "shoujo" manga than I do anything else... ^_~
  • Quick question, Ouran High School Host Club would count as Shoujo, right? My understanding of the Shoujo genre is quite clouded and this situation has confused me even further.
  • Ouran High School Host club is shoujo.
  • This is what I would buy if I ever have enough money and learn how to pilot and airplane :D

    image
  • edited March 2007
    I have wanted to rant since last night but I was half asleep and tired from writing a paper. I'm still a little tired but slightly more alert now.

    I used to watch the old Battlestar Galactica and I just never got into the newer one :-(

    Keiko Takemiya! All right. For all fans of shounen ai and yaoi, Kaze to Ki no Uta (The Song of the Wind and the Trees) is a classic. It is as necessary for a shounen ai fan to watch and/or read this as it is for a writer to peruse Strunk and White at least once in their lifetime.

    I first watched Kaze to Ki no Uta back in the nineties sometime after I first realized that I wasn't the only one who thought Trowa and Quatre had something going on. Thank goodness for the internet. I had already hooked up with my future Neo Gokuraku (anime club) co-prez and she was the one who leant me the fansubbed tapes that held the following shounen ai/yaoi titles:

    Kaze to Ki no Uta
    Ai no Kusabi
    Zetsu Ai, Bronze: Zetsu Ai since 1989, and Bronze: Cathexis (three different parts about the same characters; Takehito Koyasu is the seiyuu of Izumi)

    You can still find information about these titles on Aestheticism. The website needs to be updated but the listing in the video section is still pretty good.

    The Kaze to Ki no Uta OVA is intense without being damaging to those with tender sensibilities (you know, the squeamish bunch) when it comes to shounen ai and yaoi titles. The first paragraph from Wikipedia does a fair job of describing the general frame of the story:

    "Kaze to Ki No Uta is the story of Serge Batouille, the son of a wealthy man and a Roma woman. Taking place in the late 19th century, the story is a recollection of his memories of Gilbert Cocteau at Laconblade Academy in Provene, France. The story has themes of class prejudice, racism, homophobia, homosexuality, incest, paedophilia, rape, prostitution, and drug abuse."

    Going on to the dispute on shoujo... I assumed everyone knew shoujo meant it was aimed at young girls in the same way shounen, seinen, josei etc etc are aimed at those respective groups. These are all indeed demographics. Shounen ai is considered shoujo because it is a genre aimed at the demographic of young girls and even older women as well. Shounen ai = genre while shoujo = demographic. This is why a manga or anime can be both shoujo and shounen, i.e. aimed at both boys and girls. It is possible. What young girls (or any other group) find attractive in a manga or an anime does not fall into a formula which might have been what got Scott in trouble with Clarissa in addition to his perceived know-it-all attitude on the podcast. Suffice it to say Scott doesn't know it all (but who cares about that, just brush it off, some people come off a little arrogant) and perhaps he was just the millionth person to equate shoujo with the American concepts of "girly" or "chick flick." The straw that broke the camel's back and all.

    "Shoujo works, however, cover a huge range of subjects, from historical drama to science fiction and by no means do all adhere to the same artistic sensibilities or conventions (Wikipedia)." Understanding this about shoujo is key. The Japanese and of course original use of the word shoujo allows for a less narrow understanding than in the U.S. In the U.S, most people are locked into constricting definitions on what masculinity and femininity are (*nods to Kenjura*), and most other people who are not locked into the box are ostracized and cast to the fringes of society. The perception of American sensibilities is why certain anime/manga are released here and others are not and it is also the reason why anime/manga is censored to the atrocious level that it is. "Oh let's bring this anime across from Japan because we feel this set of people in the U.S. should like this and let's change it up all willy nilly so it's normal for the U.S." That's basically how certain companies butcher anime no? It is not as if to say Japan has it down when it comes to gender and identity issues and the U.S. doesn't but in this particular case their system of classifying anime/manga genre is a step ahead. Wouldn't it be better to understand shoujo as it was meant to be understood and not allow it to be warped by backwards U.S. concepts of gender?

    A question that comes to my mind suddenly is this: Can anyone tell me the difference between Ronin Warriors (Yoroiden-Samurai Troopers) and Sailor Moon? I mean this seriously to those who have seen both, what would you consider the major differences to be?

    Yet another question or two: What the hell is a "chick flick?" And is it possible for a guy to enjoy such a thing? (added edit)

    I am now going to listen to Clarissa's rant to see if she really did lay into Scott all that badly.

    And I will so be checking out To Terra! ^.^
    Post edited by RainbowRaven on
  • Ha! I just listened to Clarissa's rant. She must really have something against us. In fact, I'd go so far as to say she just sent us our first hatemail, albeit indirectly.
  • Ha! I just listened to Clarissa's rant. She must really have something against us. In fact, I'd go so far as to say she just sent us our first hatemail, albeit indirectly.
    What episode is this?
  • edited March 2007
    Ha! I just listened to Clarissa's rant. She must really have something against us. In fact, I'd go so far as to say she just sent us our first hatemail, albeit indirectly.
    What episode is this?
    The newest one. 51 right?
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • Episode 51 (the most recent one). I'm listening to it right now. She really does seem to have something against Scrym. Seems to be mostly to do with you guys always claiming to know a lot about shit. To be honest, I think it's just a misunderstanding, but the comments on their website are pretty funny.
  • Clarissa's comments were a little unfounded, especially the Osamu Tezuka thing, where it seemed like she was seriously misinterpreting something you said. But I think that she did have the basis to be a little angry - there did seem to be an undertone of "shojo sucks". For example - "How is this shojo? This is straight-up scifi! I mean, this rocks!" does sort of imply that shojo cannot rock and that it cannot be sci-fi.

    That said, I think Clarissa overreacted, and I think it's down to a power dynamic AWO has going. Clarissa and Gerald (although in this case you substituted for Gerald) take sides and yell at each other or make digs at each other, with Clarissa usually being the most agressive at this. Meanwhile, Daryl tries to be mediator, and is also totally hilarious. I think this fell victim to that.

    Plus, it's entertainment, and "well, your e-mail was a little sexist, and I sort of disagree with your definition of shojo, blah blah blah" is much less entertaining than "FUCK YOU YOU SEXIST SON OF A BITCH, I'M GOING TO KILL YOU FOR INSULTING SHOJO AND ALL WOMEN EVERYWHERE!"
  • Ok, I just listened to the shows and let me preface this by saying I'm not a regular listener of AWO. After reading Scott's e-mail and listening to the response, this is how I interpreted what she said:
    OMG, how can someone not know something I do! Look how big my Otaku tits are! I am a strong woman, rawr!
    Secondly, this is seriously one of the stupidest arguments I have ever heard. Who the FUCK cares what a manga/anime is published as? I'm not really the biggest anime fan, casual at best, but this is the most frivolous argument I have heard in a long time. It's not like what a work is published, whether it be shonen, shojo, seinen, or whatever will prevent you from reading/watching it. It doesn't even effect whether or not you can enjoy it.

    Lastly, it sounds to me that AWO just wanted to vent about you guys. Who really cares, they are just a bunch of anime nerds who spout their insanely vast knowledge of anime to others. Nerds.
  • edited March 2007
    The creator Keiko Takemiya is supposedly a great shoujo manga master. After reading it, all I can say is that I don't notice any shoujo at all. This is a straight up epic sci-fi manga. I mean, this shit is awesome. I don't want to say it, but I might have to say it is on Tezuka's level. I never thought anything could be better than Phoenix, but this has the potential.
    The most likely misinterpretation that I can see is perhaps she thought you were suggesting that Shoujo could never surpass Tezuka or that all Shoujo is inferior to Tezuka's work.
    Post edited by Sail on
  • Everything is inferior to Tezuka's works, she should learn how to deal ^_^
  • edited March 2007

    Listen up, fem-nazis. It's okay to believe whatever you want about whomever you want, even if that person is a different race, gender, religion, social class, or other tribal antecedent than you."
    As a side note, please don’t use the word “femi-nazi”. It’s generally considered offensive in women’s rights circles. True, there are some super overzealous feminists who hate men and all that, but the term “femi-nazi” has historically been used to dismiss all feminist inclined women as hairy, castrating, angry lesbians, which we aren't.
    Post edited by Hopallee on
  • As a side note, please don’t use the word “femi-nazi”.
    Who are you to say what he should and shouldn't say? This is like New York banning the word nigger.
  • edited March 2007
    I'm tired of people saying you can't use words because of some historic meaning. You know what? The term geek historically means someone who bites the heads off of chickens. Guess what? When I say the word geek, I'm not talking about people who eat chickens heads. I'm talking about you and me. I would hope most people are intelligent enough to realize I'm not talking about a side show act from the previous century.

    When someone uses a word with a historical burden, it is not difficult to tell what idea that person is attempting to communicate in context. Looking at the above example of the use of the word femi-nazi, it is obvious that only the super overzealous feminists who hate men, who do exist, are being referred to. It's also obvious that when I used the word shojo that I mean japanese comics with romance, relationships, etc. It's also obvious that when people use racial slurs which are applicable to themselves that they are not racist.

    Remember, you don't have a right not to be offended. If you decide you are going to interpret words using only their historical meanings, you are going to end up hating a lot of people who you have no reason to hate. That's just too bad for you. I would hope most people are intelligent enough to infer the intended meanings of things that other people say. Trust me, you'll be much better off if you take what people say at face value, and not pretend they are saying something else. History is history. Recognize it, but leave it in the past.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • Remember the whole fiasco over "nigerdly" a few years back?
Sign In or Register to comment.