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GeekNights 20110731 - Foundation

edited August 2011 in GeekNights

This month (July 2011) on the GeekNights Book Club, we discuss Isaac Asimov's Foundation. It's a science fiction classic that every person should read, and it might not be quite what you expect.

The next book, for August 2011, is The Ear, The Eye, and The Arm by Nancy Farmer.

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    • Is there a new feed for this?
      Also, nice backdating :B
    • Is there a new feed for this?
      Indeed.
    • edited August 2011
      Is the 2008 Prince of Nothing episode in there only about the first book, or about all three?
      To answer my own question, it's just an introductory episode for the Book Club and Scrym making your mouth watery for The Prince of Nothing.
      Post edited by chaosof99 on
    • We can't really talk about Foundation till you finish the next few books, I would just end giving away just a lot of spoilers.
    • This was exactly what I wanted out of a book club. Scrym's perspective. Really enjoyed this episode.

      Feedback: My one and only complaint stands: In a universe that had a bazillion worlds ( I can't remember the exact #) there HAS to exist schools/academics/universities to support this infrastructure, just like on earth.

      Cutting the proverbial umbilical cord *should not* plunge each world into the dark ages. It should plunge each world (i.e 6 billion people) into over drive to strive for survival. All the academics and teachers and of course the workers would pool their knowledge and create an independent planet.

      My example? Planet fucking Earth.

      Imagine RIGHT NOW we are cut off from a "Galactic Hierarchy". Can we keep nuclear power going? Yes. Can we keep experimenting? Fuck yes. Can we keep our universities and academia going? Of course. Because we do RIGHT NOW.

      Just a single planet could/should keep going. As Earth keeps going, so should any planet cut off from the empire.

      People going to work that shit out.
    • Think of the planets are countries. The smaller ones would experience real hurt if cut off from the world.

      When interstellar travel is trivial, the boundries of planets won't be so intimidating, and entire planets could conveivably specialize their knowledge/trade.
    • BTW, the Cosmos episode is missing from the Book Club feed.
    • I just realized, I totally read that Ear, Eye, Arm book as a kid. I used to just grab books at random from the young adult section of my library. It was pretty good, though if adults are reading it now I'm sure I missed some of the subtlety then.
    • Feedback: My one and only complaint stands: In a universe that had a bazillion worlds ( I can't remember the exact #) there HAS to exist schools/academics/universities to support this infrastructure, just like on earth.

      Cutting the proverbial umbilical cord *should not* plunge each world into the dark ages. It should plunge each world (i.e 6 billion people) into over drive to strive for survival. All the academics and teachers and of course the workers would pool their knowledge and create an independent planet.

      My example? Planet fucking Earth.

      Imagine RIGHT NOW we are cut off from a "Galactic Hierarchy". Can we keep nuclear power going? Yes. Can we keep experimenting? Fuck yes. Can we keep our universities and academia going? Of course. Because we do RIGHT NOW.

      Just a single planet could/should keep going. As Earth keeps going, so should any planet cut off from the empire.

      People going to work that shit out.
      Interesting. I had that thought as well when I was listening to it. However, I think it's all a question of scale and time. In the Foundation universe (as I understood it), the Empire had existed for several dozens of thousands of years. Therefore, planets had completely lost their ability to function independently. Like the "administrative world" (I can't remember the name, but it's basically Coruscant), worlds became specialized to an incredible degree. Some worlds were completely pleasure worlds, some were completely agricultural worlds, etc. So when the Empire stops getting the Agricultural World tech workers from the Training World, things fall apart, since for generations all the farmers have known is their specific task and can't adapt.

      However, that said, I do agree with you. There's gotta be more than a few hundred thousand scholars. I'd imagine that some planets would be dedicated to academics and science, since we're talking in a purely macro sense. And those planets would be able to still make things work.
    • Feedback: My one and only complaint stands: In a universe that had a bazillion worlds ( I can't remember the exact #) there HAS to exist schools/academics/universities to support this infrastructure, just like on earth.

      Cutting the proverbial umbilical cord *should not* plunge each world into the dark ages. It should plunge each world (i.e 6 billion people) into over drive to strive for survival. All the academics and teachers and of course the workers would pool their knowledge and create an independent planet.

      My example? Planet fucking Earth.

      Imagine RIGHT NOW we are cut off from a "Galactic Hierarchy". Can we keep nuclear power going? Yes. Can we keep experimenting? Fuck yes. Can we keep our universities and academia going? Of course. Because we do RIGHT NOW.

      Just a single planet could/should keep going. As Earth keeps going, so should any planet cut off from the empire.

      People going to work that shit out.
      Interesting. I had that thought as well when I was listening to it. However, I think it's all a question of scale and time. In the Foundation universe (as I understood it), the Empire had existed for several dozens of thousands of years. Therefore, planets had completely lost their ability to function independently. Like the "administrative world" (I can't remember the name, but it's basically Coruscant), worlds became specialized to an incredible degree. Some worlds were completely pleasure worlds, some were completely agricultural worlds, etc. So when the Empire stops getting the Agricultural World tech workers from the Training World, things fall apart, since for generations all the farmers have known is their specific task and can't adapt.

      However, that said, I do agree with you. There's gotta be more than a few hundred thousand scholars. I'd imagine that some planets would be dedicated to academics and science, since we're talking in a purely macro sense. And those planets would be able to still make things work.
      A lot of these worlds would of already fallen into barbarism before the start of the book otherwise the period of time where the foundation starting pushing science as religion would not of been possible. The fall of the Galactic empire was a slow rot from the outside as the goverment become less and less effective.
    • Yes, I agree with that. Clearly 99% of the worlds were reliant on the Galactic empire. Perhaps a lot, if not all of the tech was shipped in from off world and operated by off worlders too.

      It never makes it clear, but you have to assume this for it to work I guess.

      Ordered The Ear, The Hand and The Knee. God damn, wont arrive until an estimated 3 September!

      Not like the episode will be on time anyway, :P
    • Not like the episode will be on time anyway, :P
      Definitely not because of PAX.
    • Not like the episode will be on time anyway, :P
      Definitely not because of PAX.
      For once, this is a good thing.

      So shall I pre-order the Little Prince while I'm at it?
    • Yes, the book series does get shit later on. Can't say when.

      Yes, later in the stories your faith in Seldon is tested.
    • In the Foundation universe (as I understood it), the Empire had existed for several dozens of thousands of years. Therefore, planets had completely lost their ability to function independently.
      That's one of my major stumbling blocks with the Star Wars prequels and how they set the timeline. Before the prequels, it was kind of hinted that the Empire was very old and powerful. I have a hard time imagining that, if it was only twenty or so years old by the time of A New Hope, that it would really be that much of a problem to anyone who just simply decided to ignore it. I mean, it's barely twenty years old! How scary and oppressive is that?
    • That's one of my major stumbling blocks with the Star Wars prequels and how they set the timeline. Before the prequels, it was kind of hinted that the Empire was very old and powerful. I have a hard time imagining that, if it was only twenty or so years old by the time of A New Hope, that it would really be that much of a problem to anyone who just simply decided to ignore it. I mean, it's barely twenty years old! How scary and oppressive is that?
      Never thought about this, but it's exactly right. If Luke & Leia were really born at the dawn of the Empire, the height of civilization, how could an entire galaxy have fallen into such an Imperial dark age so quickly?
    • That's one of my major stumbling blocks with the Star Wars prequels and how they set the timeline. Before the prequels, it was kind of hinted that the Empire was very old and powerful. I have a hard time imagining that, if it was only twenty or so years old by the time of A New Hope, that it would really be that much of a problem to anyone who just simply decided to ignore it. I mean, it's barely twenty years old! How scary and oppressive is that?
      Never thought about this, but it's exactly right. If Luke & Leia were really born at the dawn of the Empire, the height of civilization, how could an entire galaxy have fallen into such an Imperial dark age so quickly?
      Yeah, if that's the correct timeline, I would imagine that many people's opinion about the Empire would be "Meh. It'll pass. It certainly won't last any longer than Palpatine's natural lifetime. It's not like he has an heir or anything."

      Also, if Leia was one of the main agitators/fomentors of the rebellion - even if she started from an early age, the Rebellion wouldn't have had very much time to get organized and on its feet. That whole timeline doesn't make sense to me.

      It sort of reminds me of England under Oliver Cromwell. There was some odd oppressive stuff for about eleven years, but then things quickly went back to normal after he died. During those eleven years, most people just decided to wait things out, especially since there was no clear way that the Protectorate could last beyond Cromwell's life.
    • Yeah, if that's the correct timeline, I would imagine that many people's opinion about the Empire would be "Meh. It'll pass. It certainly won't last any longer than Palpatine's natural lifetime. It's not like he has an heir or anything."

      Also, if Leia was one of the main agitators/fomentors of the rebellion - even if she started from an early age, the Rebellion wouldn't have had very much time to get organized and on its feet. That whole timeline doesn't make sense to me.
      Well, there are a three main reasons for the former - the emperor spending years organizing behind the scenes before he took over, the removal of the Jedi as a stabilizing force, and finally, the Empire and the Old republic are one and the same. The Empire had the keys to the entire kingdom from the very start, they didn't have to worry about building their entire military force or infrastructure between the planets, because it was all in place before it even existed. It wasn't a new organization coming to town, it was the old organization coming under new and immensely evil management.

      I mean, imagine if tomorrow you were handed sole control over the entire US government and all it's various arms, and you wanted to be as evil as you could, think what kind of power you'd have. You wouldn't need 20 years to become a rather scary and oppressive empire.

      As to the latter, Leia wasn't a main agitator or formentor of the rebellion, it was actually Bail Organa, her father, and a group he got together with, who saw what was coming before Palpatine took over, and had started planting the seeds and gathering allies before Leia or the Empire were really born. Leia was one of the leaders, later on, but this was again a case of having the keys to the kingdom handed to her after her father died when her planet was destroyed, and even then, she wasn't really the head of the rebellion, but one of the leaders - the head of the rebellion, as much as there was such a thing, was actually Mon Mothma, the older, red-headed woman you see in the movies from time to time. In the first movie, she's even a representative in the Galactic senate, a position that it's doubtful she could have held if she was a leader of the rebellion at that time, and indeed, she only really became a true leader within the movement after she no longer held that position.
    • But it's still only a short-lived, temporary thing. Palpatine might have been plotting for years, but.who is his heir?

      I really think that, if I were living there, I'd just lay low in a small town somewhere and see how things pan out, knowing that there'd be some sort of power struggle after P's death that would likely result in a much weakened Empire as a whole.
    • I really think that, if I were living there, I'd just lay low in a small town somewhere and see how things pan out,
      Maybe a desert planet, way out in the middle of nowhere? Cultivate a reputation as a weird old hermit? Maybe keep a lightsaber around, just in case, but otherwise lay low unless something really bad happens, like someone comes to you with the plans on how to destroy a super-weapon?
    • edited August 2011
      But it's still only a short-lived, temporary thing. Palpatine might have been plotting for years, but.who is his heir?
      I believe the current canon can answer that - insomuch as one can be a heir, Clones. There are stories that cover that he had a whole cloning facility set up to produce clones of himself, replacing the current him with a clone him as time wore on, effectively making himself the ruler in perpetuity - in fact, there is an entire story arc about the emperor reborn, which is essentially the discovery of a clone emperor, who had the emperor's spirit, which had apparently been roaming around disembodied thanks to some mystical sci-fi jiggery pokery with The Force, though I think I recall there being another plan in place originally.

      Also, the empire didn't die with Palpatine - It was only really defeated properly once the rebels took Coruscant, during a time when the empire was ruled by Isard. Even after that, there were still imperial warlords cruising about and causing trouble, not to mention those who gave up their imperial stylings, and just outright became pirates.

      But that's all EU sort of stuff, and really not the kinda thing you're expected to know without making at least a cursory examination of that materiel.
      Post edited by Churba on
    • edited August 2011
      Yeah, I read that about the clones too. I kinda think that even the vilest Empire guys would begin gossiping, "Hey, isn't Palpatine about 150 years old now? That's too creepy for me. I'm out" or "Hey, P is about 150 years old. Sounds like a good time to start a coup."
      Post edited by HungryJoe on
    • Yeah, I read that about the clones too. I kinda think that even the vilest Empire guys would begin gossiping, "Hey, isn't Palpatine about 150 years old now? That's too creepy for me. I'm out" or "Hey, P is about 150 years old. Sounds like a good time to start a coup."
      Now that I wouldn't be surprised at - there are stories in the EU about those times even before his longevity became an issue, with people plotting behind the emperor's back, around the emperor, over the emperor, through the emperor, and in every goddamn direction possible involving the emperor. Like some sort of mental game of Chinese whispers, but with conspiracies in space.
    • Yeah, I read that about the clones too. I kinda think that even the vilest Empire guys would begin gossiping, "Hey, isn't Palpatine about 150 years old now? That's too creepy for me. I'm out" or "Hey, P is about 150 years old. Sounds like a good time to start a coup."
      Now that I wouldn't be surprised at - there are stories in the EU about those times even before his longevity became an issue, with people plotting behind the emperor's back, around the emperor, over the emperor, through the emperor, and in every goddamn direction possible involving the emperor. Like some sort of mental game of Chinese whispers, but with conspiracies in space.
      Your knowledge of the EU is impressive. All I have to say is that I was much more impressed with an Empire that had a mysterious past and that made you think it was powerful because it had been in business for a very long time than one that's just twenty years old, no matter what infrastructure it's building on, especially in a galaxy where there are all kinds of hiding places.
    • edited August 2011
      Your knowledge of the EU is impressive. All I have to say is that I was much more impressed with an Empire that had a mysterious past and that made you think it was powerful because it had been in business for a very long time than one that's just twenty years old, no matter what infrastructure it's building on, especially in a galaxy where there are all kinds of hiding places.
      There are two reasons for that - First, I've always really liked Star Wars (I recall when I was a kid, every weekend, I'd spend hours watching the "Moon tapes"), and I've always been a voracious reader, which leads into B)EU books are usually both cheap and plentiful in secondhand bookshops, which when I was young and either my parents were buying me books, or I had little cash for myself to buy books, they were my primary place to get things to read.

      I do have to agree, though - the empire really was more impressive as a mysterious, evil, galaxy-spanning empire like it is in the original films, than as the thoroughly explained Evil Empire of the EU. They're still rather impressive in the latter, but most certainly less so.
      Post edited by Churba on
    • The main thing that makes no sense in the 20-year Empire is the technology. The original trilogy is basically a dark age compared to the Republic. In just 20 years how could they go from such fancy equipment to rusty old X-Wings?

      Also, they call it the "Old Republic" emphasis on the old. Apparently, it's not that old!
    • It would be the "Republic everyone remembers from very recent times", or "The republic everyone has personal memories of because it's younger than the Windows OS".

      Seriously, I'll bet that Jan Solo has personal memories of the Old Republic. Boba Fett clearly would.
    • We should write a completely replacement for the Star Wars extended universe where only the original trilogy is canon, and the Empire is very old.

      Except, that would be fan-fiction.
    • edited August 2011
      The Old Republic was the Old Republic even when it was still around. It had been around in one form or another for more than twenty thousand years, and it was in decline long before it became the Empire; to people outside of the Core, where the Republic's influence was decaying, they might think of the Republic in the past tense even though it's still around simply because it was no longer the be-all and end-all. Imagine how people living in Britain might have thought about Rome after the Romans pulled out; even though the Roman Empire still technically exists out there, it has ceased to be the governing body in these parts. After all, the Republic had ceded so much power that a bunch of corporations could have a stand-up fight with them.

      I think the Rome analog is probably a pretty good one. Even as the Empire was collapsing, the Romans were still the biggest name in the business and the scariest individual power around. It's name still had influence but was writing checks they couldn't cash anymore, and they had tons of nominal vassals who in reality just did whatever they wanted. At the end of the Old Republic's life, it could no longer enforce the law outside the Core; it had become little more than a vast bureaucracy moving around a lot of flimsiplast but not really accomplishing anything; a good visual indicator of how hard times had become for them is to look at the diplomatic ship they sent to the blockade of Naboo at the start of Episode 1; this thing was carrying two Jedi Knights and was painted the full red of a diplomatic vessel, but it was old, beat up, and seriously worn out. By contrast, the Queen of Naboo, a planet which is remarkable merely in that it is an bureaucratic sector capital without any real power, maintains a stable of chromed spacecraft for royal business, and the Trade Federation's sterile capital ships and sharp-edged, super-advanced droid fighters are meticulously maintained; it's visual shorthand for the Roman ambassador showing up with shoes worn from travel to mediate between a king decked out in jewels and a mercenary captain with fine armour and a silvered sword.

      So, while technically the Old Republic disappeared merely twenty years ago, most of the characters in Star Wars would have only vaguely been aware of it's existence in the first place, with their sector governments or local corporate interests having far more power over an area. Even the Jedi would have been mythical to most even while they were still active. It's not hard to imagine the Republic fading away in importance before being suddenly and violently reborn as an Empire with the military might to show up at the doors of their on-paper territories and reminding everyone who was in charge.

      As for X-Wings looking less advanced and more beat up, that has little to do with the time period and a lot more to do with the fact they are being maintained by rebel mechanics more concerned with getting them working than making them look pretty; heck, they've pulled all the armour off the Y-Wings just to make maintenance easier. The Tie-Fighters of the Imperials are a better indicator of the tech base of the OT; hyper-compact and extremely efficient designs with minimum weight penalty, providing an extremely small target and with no more equipment than it needs.
      Post edited by open_sketchbook on


    • A lot of these worlds would of already fallen into barbarism before the start of the book
      This.
      The reason that only Terminus had nuclear power wasn't because they kept it for the last 50 years, while everyone suddenly lost the HAS_NUCLEICS attribute because they left the empire which grants it. The encyclopedists brought with them (from Trantor- home of the greatest library of the empire, which you can guess from the first story, and is confirmed in the 3rd book) knowledge of nucleics, which was already lost on the fringes by that time.
      P.S. You will also be happy to know that among all the stories there is a female protagonist: a 14 year old girl. So yeah, I guess you should do all your heroics before you turn 18, then it's baby-factory time!
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