This forum is in permanent archive mode. Our new active community can be found here.

Homosexual animals

edited October 2006 in News
This has been all over Norwegian news for several weeks now, but has now also reached international news: The first ever exhibition of homosexuality among animals. The purpose of the exhibition is to refute the notion that homosexuality is unnatural.

I'm not posting this to make it easier for Rym and Scott to get out of the closet ;-), nor do I believe the intelligent users of this forum has such homophobic and uninformed beliefs. I think however not enough intelligent people know how utterly normal homosexuality is in the animal realm.

I am quite involved in this topic because my brother, Petter Bøckman, is one of the persons behind this exhibition. He has been on TV, radio and in newspapers a lot lately talking about this, and since we look a lot alike, I am from time to time confronted by strangers who has an opinion they need to express. So far I haven't run into the real nuts, and have only had interesting discussions.

Only a small percentage of our population are very religious, but there are enough of them that hilarious statements have reached news columns. One pastor has claimed my brother will burn in hell (he is very pleased to have made a stir), and another is very angry that tax money is being used on such "political propaganda". He thinks that money instead should be used on converting these perverted animals! :-D

Comments

  • He thinks that money instead should be used on converting these perverted animals!
    Please tell me you were joking about that bit? Cause I'm getting an excellent image of a group therapy session involving a polar bear, a gibbon, a lion and a bunch of other animals working through their issues.

    That exhibition looks really interesting.
  • He thinks that money instead should be used on converting these perverted animals!
    Please tell me you were joking about that bit? Cause I'm getting an excellent image of a group therapy session involving a polar bear, a gibbon, a lion and a bunch of other animals working through their issues.
    I'm not joking! You can include 50 million dor beatles into that therapy session.

    The pastor Jan Åge Torp is a high profiled religious leader who also thinks gay people should not be allowed to have powerful positions in society, because they are like cancer. What a sweet guy! ;-) He is mostly ridiculed in media.
  • Correct me if I'm wrong, but homosexuality among wild animals has been documented for a long, long time.
  • By the way, the exhibition is mostly based on the book Biological Exuberance : Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity by Bruce Bagemihl. You don't have to go to Norway or learn Norwegian to learn more about this topic.
  • Correct me if I'm wrong, but homosexuality among wild animals has been documented for a long, long time.
    Sure, but it has mostly been dismissed as dominance strategies and so on. Until recently few biologists have dared to say out loud that these animals have sex with each other simply because they enjoy it.

    This is probably the only zoology topic that is so politically potent that scientists until now have felt the need to tell whether they themselves are gay or not.
  • edited October 2006
    Ignore. The question I asked was answered in the article.
    Post edited by Kilarney on
  • Until recently few biologists have dared to say out loud that these animals have sex with each other simply because they enjoy it.
    I would point you towards bonobos! They've been studied since the 1930's, and it's pretty clear that they're animals who "have sex together because they enjoy it." :) Bonobos are pansexual as well, meaning all the sexes participate in sexual behavior with all the other sexes. Along with chimpanzees they are our closest non-bipedal evolutionary relatives in the primate world. So here, too, is another species in which "homosexual" behavior is found, along with sex for the purpose of pleasure (though it does serve social functions in bonobo groups as well.)

    As for whether or not homosexuality is "unnatural," we have only to look at other HUMAN cultures for evidence. Across time and across the geographic span of the world, there exist/have existed peoples where sexual behaviors between two members of the same sex are considered normal. For example, the ancient Greeks practiced pederasty, the Sambia people of Papau New Guinea use fellatio as a ritual process to masculinize boys, and Native Americans allowed marriage (and still do, as far as I know, though this practice is becoming less common as Christianity becomes more of an influence on Native Americans) between berdaches/amazons/two-spirits and regular males and females. There are many, many, more examples. If sexual acts between members of the same sex was "unnatural," then all human cultures would regard it in the same way, but they do not; in the human species there is an incredible amount of variation in gender, gender ideologies, sexual practices, and even what people find to be erotic. Of course, the Church crazies don't want you to know this. ;)

    That being said, I like the message of this exhibit. Kudos to your brother, Navelfluff :) Hopefully it will stand alongside other biological and anthropological findings as evidence that homosexuality is not innately some evil or unnatural practice - it is only through culture that we apply value judgements to behaviors.
  • Sexual living creatures like to get off. Enjoying the reproductive act is a pretty good trait that allows you to pass the genes on. I imagine that creatures who do not enjoy passing on their genes, well, don't pass on their genes very often.

    Anyway, it is very possible to trick the body of a sexual being into thinking it is engaging in the reproductive act when it is not. This results in good feelings. An animal is going to do whatever it can to have those good feelings, whether it results in reproduction or not, e.g: dogs humping human legs. Sometimes an animal will get off via a member of the same species and sex. I really don't see anything unexpected or unnatural about it when viewed from this perspective. Considering the variety of other things that sexual creatures will do to get off, doing it with a member of the same sex and species is far from strange.
  • With humans there is an interesting difference. Unlike more simple animals, we know that homosexual behaviour can not pass on our DNA. Yet we still have homosexual humans.

    Let's face it, if you subscribe to the theory of evolution, there has to be some explanation for homosexuality. To save me some research, does anyone know how Darwinists explain homosexuality?
  • The argument that a behavior - like homosexuality - is not "natural" because it doesn't propogate a species is ridiculous. There are lots of behaviors in the animal kingdom that are not only not beneficial, but downright idiotic and dangerous. Natural selection works by punishing negative behaviors, but that doesn't mean they are eradicated. Bad traits will continue to exist in a minority manifestation, but natural selection will suppress them and keep them from becoming dominant.
  • Nothing new here. Move along.

    This is one area that there really is no middle ground. Animals sure like their Homosexual sex!
  • Oh wow, this exhibit sounds wonderful. Do you think it'll be travelling at all? Give your brother kudos from all of us, he's doing real good.

    Also, it should be reiterated that BONOBOS ARE AWESOME.
  • It shouldn't be any surprise that penguins are homosexual. Look at the way they dress. They are totally metrosexual.
  • It shouldn't be any surprise that penguins are homosexual. Look at the way they dress. They are totally metrosexual.
    Ditto peacocks, HELLO! They're not even pretending to be in the closet.
  • With humans there is an interesting difference. Unlike more simple animals, we know that homosexual behaviour can not pass on our DNA. Yet we still have homosexual humans.

    Let's face it, if you subscribe to the theory of evolution, there has to be some explanation for homosexuality. To save me some research, does anyone know how Darwinists explain homosexuality?
    Disclaimer: I'm not a biologist, and the following is to a large extent my personal interpretation of facts I've got from my brother and other sources. I also have a terrible hangover after yesterday's Oktoberfest, and my brain is not working at peek level.

    First of all, homosexuals do get children and pass on their genes. It happens all the time, especially in strict religious communities where gays are forced into heterosexual marriages.

    To my knowledge there has not been any research on other animals than humans to find a correlation between homosexuality and specific genes. After quite thorough studies they have so far not found any "gay gene". This means that a diverging sexual orientation probably develops during pregnancy because of hormonal imbalance. Everyone has the genes that under certain circumstances would have made them homosexual. Therefore there is very little selective pressure against it.

    If homosexuality was directly harmful to the success of the species, it would be eradicated over time. Indeed some animals are strictly heterosexual (as far as we can tell). I'll try to explain why homosexuality is not harmful to many species:

    Homosexuality is most common with social species like ourselves. We have instincts that make us help our relatives or social group with raising their kids, and that can sometimes make us put ourselves in mortal peril to defend those close to us. By saving my sibling's child I save an individual that carry 1/4 of my own genes. That is beneficial to my genes even if I die myself. People without kids of their own are a resource to their relatives, helping them grow up and prosper, thus giving a diluted version of their own genes a step ahead in the genetic competition. In that way gays without children are indirectly passing on their genes through others. It can be beneficial to a species to have some individuals that don't get children. Homosexuality is one of several possible strategies to achieve that.
    Oh wow, this exhibit sounds wonderful. Do you think it'll be travelling at all? Give your brother kudos from all of us, he's doing real good.

    Also, it should be reiterated that BONOBOS ARE AWESOME.
    Bonobos are indeed some of the coolest animals on this planet (from a human point of view). Unfortunately, they may be gone very soon. They have been threatened by extinction for a long time, but recently guerrilla groups started hunting these peaceful, lovemaking animals for food. It is very sad.

    As for the exhibition, they have thought of making a smaller ambulating version to go around Norway and maybe the other Nordic countries. I don't think it will go abroad for three years or so, if ever. It's probably a better idea for museums in other countries to make their own versions instead of waiting for this one.
  • Huzzah! It's really annoying the way homosexuality in other animals is dismissed by most religious groups. Like those gay penguins that finally broke up a while ago and those Christians all celebrated because they (the penguins) had realised the sins of their ways. Or something. Never mind that plenty other animals display homosexual behaviour. Also, they're penguins. I'm not sure penguins technically can sin. Or any other animal. Aren't they all denied souls under Christianity?

    Damn you Navelfluff for pointing out the "gay uncle" hypothesis nine minutes before I could! Damn yooouuuu!

    Anyway, yes, hope the display goes down well over there!
  • I am currently listening through all the episodes of the Evolution 101 podcast. Episode 122 is about homosexuality. I am pleased to hear that my arguments was on the spot, but Dr. Zach also mentioned more complex explanations for homosexuality that I didn't know of.

    It's a good podcast.
  • I'm reviving this old thread because of more news.
    Oh wow, this exhibit sounds wonderful. Do you think it'll be travelling at all?
    The original exhibition here in Oslo closed yesterday. Due to many requests from around the world, the museum has made it a priority to make an ambulating version for the English speaking world. First stop will probably be Sydney. I don't know how fast this will happen as it's difficult to organize. The museum is reluctant to let their collection of animals out of the building, and it's not trivial to move stuffed animals across national borders.

    But anyway, gay animals may be making a stir in your home town in the not so distant future. :-)
  • Well, if it comes stateside, I'm certain it will hit New York, and I'm certain I'll be there.
  • Wow, this is an excellent way to spread the word. I have been wondering, though. If this exhibition would ever come to America, how would you deal with the uber-religious neo-cons? I'm fairly sure they will either boycott (which would be fine), or hold a protest of some sort. Maybe not in New York, where the vast majority of the population is liberal, but surely in other places. Mid-western America perhaps?

    Whatever. In the end it'll probably just be more publicity, which will definitely be good for this whole fiasco.
  • I'm pretty sure it will go to the US, and it would surprise me if it doesn't stop in New York. I know that the Museum of Sex has asked for it, among others.

    I don't know what the plans are for the US, and how they plan to deal with religious nut-heads. It's obvious that they need help from local institutions to handle PR, controversies, politics and such. Two zoologists from from Norway can't cope with all that.
  • I'm pretty sure it will go to the US, and it would surprise me if it doesn't stop in New York. I know that theMuseum of Sexhas asked for it, among others.

    I don't know what the plans are for the US, and how they plan to deal with religious nut-heads. It's obvious that they need help from local institutions to handle PR, controversies, politics and such. Two zoologists from from Norway can't cope with all that.
    We went to the Musem of Sex. It's awesome.
  • edited August 2007
    Considering that some species of frogs can change their sex when there is a shortage of "partners" I don't see anything unnatural about homosexuality among animals.

    The only thing I consider "unnatural" is that a guy would enjoy having a dick shoved up his ass. I have no doubt he would enjoy sticking it into any soft warm hole he can find I just can't see how the other person would enjoy it. Then again it might explain the placement and sensitivity of the prostrate gland. Woman don't have one so they enjoy anal sex much less than men do.

    I don't much care what you (or animals) do sexually I just don't want it shoved in my face and told it's normal (normal as in everyone does it).

    On further reflection it is not the homosexuals that are the hated group. I have several homosexual friends and the one thing we all seem to agree on is that it is the bisexuals that are ruining it for everyone! You just can't trust them. They might hook up with ANYONE!!!

    If someone is homosexual and they leave you for a member of the sex you are not a part of you can just shrug it off as being their fault. When a bisexual leaves you for a member of the sex you are not a part of then that is a slap in the face!
    Post edited by HMTKSteve on
  • The only thing I consider "unnatural" is that a guy would enjoy having a dick shoved up his ass. I have no doubt he would enjoy sticking it into any soft warm hole he can find I just can't see how the other person would enjoy it.
    As a friend of mine so elegantly put it: "Whenever I take a crap and press out a really thick and long poop, and get this sensation that is both painful and wonderful, I get a streak of homophobia."
Sign In or Register to comment.