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GeekNights Presents Utena: ep00

edited November 2012 in GeekNights

GeekNights Presents:
Shoujo Kakumei Utena
Episode 00

We at GeekNights reviewed Shoujo Kakumei Utena (Revolutionary Girl Utena) many years ago. It's a fantastic, A-level anime that has stood the test of time: something every anime fan should watch at least once.

Utena is a complex show with a complex story, nevermind the imagery, allegory, music, and everything else that makes it a staggeringly difficult work to grok with fullness. Thus, rather than attempt to cram all of that into a single, mind-shattering episode of GeekNights, Rym and Scott have decided to analyse the show, episode-by-episode, for the entirety of its three seasons (39 episodes).

Consider this a sort of "viewer's companion." Nothing will be spoiled at any point beyond what would have been seen if you were following along. Watch each episode after you've seen the relevant episode of Utena.

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Comments

  • I officially have no excuse any longer. I have finally started watching Utena. It's something I've intended to watch for... pretty much ever, I just never got around to it. Shameful, I know.
  • Like I needed another reason to watch Utena again.

    So ready for the car

    datcar

  • I've been waiting for this for too long. Question; how often will there be episodes of this? Any regular schedule? Also, where's the episode 1, you already admitted watching that, so I'm waiting.
  • Shiiiiiiiiiit
  • Welp, looks like I know what I'm watching again.
  • So if anyone knows anyone who may be interested in buying the 1999 DVD released versions of this series, let me know.
  • So if anyone knows anyone who may be interested in buying the 1999 DVD released versions of this series, let me know.
    Wait, did you buy the remastered ones? You may want to reconsider selling the good ones. the remaster is not so well remastered.
  • Really? Hmmm. Sail and Judith say otherwise. I even have the first two sets of the original in the box sets they came in.

    I was such a hardcore Utena fan that I bought the first box set of VHS tapes. The guy who got me into the series has the laser discs if the show.

    I remember for the longest of time waiting for the rest of the series to be subbed or dubbed because I wanted to know the rest of the story. I couldn't find any VHS fan subs, so I ended up watching the Black Rose Saga and on all raw. One could imagine how even more interesting the show appeared to be when you couldn't even understand the dialogue.

    This was all when I barely used the Internet and was on a Compaq Presario.
  • Should be interesting; never watched this anime. I can already see from the first episode influences it has had on other anime I have watched.

    Are you guys shooting for, one episode a week?
  • This is great timing, as Greg yelled at me to watch Utena just yesterday.
  • I'll be following this. Let's see if you can really make sense of the show.

    I really love the first half, but the second half twist into a convoluted plot of pretentious nonsense and hollow symbolism that ruins the show as a whole (still think it's a pretty good show, but not A-level). Even if all of it actually have an explanation that makes sense, what are you supose to do as a viewer? Stop and analize every single scene drawing a conclusion that may or may not be correct? That's awful. The first half had a lot of symbolism but you could disregard most of it and still understand what's going on. Also, the black rose arc seems pretty pointless for the overall plot. You can still enjoy episodes individually, though.

    I hope you get to make satisfying explanations. I have seen the show 3 times and most of what I have read about the symbolism is just bullshit. Things like "what Miki is measuring with his stopwatch is time itself"... Oh, yeah, that makes so much sense.

    Have you thought about doing the movie as well?
  • I'll be following this. Let's see if you can really make sense of the show.

    I really love the first half, but the second half twist into a convoluted plot of pretentious nonsense and hollow symbolism that ruins the show as a whole (still think it's a pretty good show, but not A-level). Even if all of it actually have an explanation that makes sense, what are you supose to do as a viewer? Stop and analize every single scene drawing a conclusion that may or may not be correct? That's awful. The first half had a lot of symbolism but you could disregard most of it and still understand what's going on. Also, the black rose arc seems pretty pointless for the overall plot. You can still enjoy episodes individually, though.

    I hope you get to make satisfying explanations. I have seen the show 3 times and most of what I have read about the symbolism is just bullshit. Things like "what Miki is measuring with his stopwatch is time itself"... Oh, yeah, that makes so much sense.

    Have you thought about doing the movie as well?
    I couldn't decide on one reaction image, so I'll let you choose:
    image
    image
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    image
  • So if anyone knows anyone who may be interested in buying the 1999 DVD released versions of this series, let me know.
    Wait, did you buy the remastered ones? You may want to reconsider selling the good ones. the remaster is not so well remastered.
    You're going to have to qualify that statement. It wasn't a mere remaster, they recolored and smoothed out the animation with Ikuhara's supervision to make it more consistent from episode to episode, correcting the corners that were cut due to budget restrictions at the time they made it. Also completely remixed audio, a couple higher-quality sound effects Ikuhara wanted, and even some dialogue re-recorded with the original voice actors, again, to make up for the corners cut in the original version. It's pretty much the definitive Utena.
  • edited November 2012
    I really love the first half, but the second half twist into a convoluted plot of pretentious nonsense and hollow symbolism that ruins the show as a whole (still think it's a pretty good show, but not A-level). Even if all of it actually have an explanation that makes sense, what are you supose to do as a viewer? Stop and analize every single scene drawing a conclusion that may or may not be correct? That's awful.
    Well, yeah. That's kind of the draw and fun of enjoying a film or show on the symbolic and analytical level: going into that kind of episode-by-episode, scene-by-scene, even shot-by-shot detail. Some people enjoy that, and if you don't, that's fine. You can still enjoy Utena on a purely surface level and just laugh at all the stuff that just seems superfluous and weird to you. That's one of the strengths of the show, like Rym said: it is consistent on multiple levels from the surface to the philosophical, and it is enjoyable on all those levels too.

    For people who do want to look at the show in detail, then there is plenty to be found and debated. There is no "correct" conclusion to be made, because art isn't meant to have single "correct" interpretations, and artists who do claim that about their work probably aren't very good artists. Broad conclusions can be made (e.g.: Utena is a show about adolescence and how clinging to your past is unhealthy), but the details can vary wildly across various interpretations. And that's the fun of it. It's fun to see how different people see the same things and put them together in different ways, and then to draw out the common truths that emerge from the discussion.

    In short: yeah, if you analyze a work, you look at it in detail and draw a conclusion based on what you find -- doesn't matter if it's "right" or not, so long as you have evidence for your view and can talk about it. I don't know what else to say other than that's... how art works. :/

    And if you think that's stupid, then fine, you can enjoy art in other ways. Quoth John Cleese: "I may not know much about art, but I know what I like." That's a valid way to experience art too; just try not to piss on those of us who want to experience it a different way, or dismiss that there's something there just because you are unwilling to dig.


    In other news, I posted the link to the video over on the big Utena forum. Hope that nets you some more of the superfan audience!
    Post edited by Eryn on
  • Sign me up. I am ready!

  • Well, yeah. That's kind of the draw and fun of enjoying a film or show on the symbolic and analytical level: going into that kind of episode-by-episode, scene-by-scene, even shot-by-shot detail. Some people enjoy that, and if you don't, that's fine. You can still enjoy Utena on a purely surface level and just laugh at all the stuff that just seems superfluous and weird to you. That's one of the strengths of the show, like Rym said: it is consistent on multiple levels from the surface to the philosophical, and it is enjoyable on all those levels too.
    I would agree with that if you could at least make sense of the plot just watching. For example, Madoka Magika has a lot of symbolism that can be enjoyed by people who like going analytical, but you can perfectly understand the show without that.

    Utena, on the other hand, makes no sense without the analisis, and even with it. Like I said, I have watched the show 3 times and read quite about it, but still didn't get a satisfactory explanation for the plot. Also, the first half of the show is pretty straightforward, so it's still a flaw that its storytelling is not consistent with itself, I think.
    There is no "correct" conclusion to be made, because art isn't meant to have single "correct" interpretations, and artists who do claim that about their work probably aren't very good artists.
    That's not true at all. We are talking about plot related things here; it's not like interpreting an abstract painting. There has to be one and only one answer to the question "what was that all about", and a symbol that can be interpreted in whatever way you like is a hollow symbol. The free interpretation is in the message it delivers or the overall meaning of the work. That can vary and have different answers depending of the person. What the cat that is being pointed at means has only one correct answer, or there is no answer at all.
  • For a show whose central purpose is so centred on allegory, themes, and symbolism, I think it's unreasonable to expect that it also functions 100% on a purely logical, popcorn level. In that sense it kind of is like a painting — albeit surrealist, not abstract. Yeah, it presents itself as a narrative, just as you can see recognizable shapes and figures in surrealist work. And in both there are things that are vague/distorted, that seem designed to contravene logic, or that seem superfluous to the plot from a pure "A necessitates B necessitates C" angle. However, that does not make a show like this less valid as a story that can be enjoyed casually, I think.

    I don't see the trouble in understanding the plot of Utena from a surface level, really, if that's the issue you have with it. I've been enjoying it casually and seriously since I was thirteen or fourteen. Plenty of other people who aren't you and who aren't interested in super analytical stuff have enjoyed the show as well and don't have this problem with it.

    If you look at everything you learn by the end of the show, lay it out chronologically, and fill in the gaps with some reasonable guesses, you can get a complete layout of what happened. While it's still kind of weird and relies on elements of myth and fantasy, I would argue it makes its own brand of sense.

    Here's a quick and dirty rundown of the story of Utena as I see it, just taking it at face value. And a lot of this is stuff I put together myself a long time before I got big into analysis stuff. MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR ANYONE WHO HAS NOT SEEN THE SHOW:
    Akio was once the prince Dios who protected the world and its princesses long, long ago. He eventually got so overworked that his sister (the only person who could never be a princess for him because ew incest) sealed him away to protect him/keep him for herself. People got mad and threw a massive hate-on Anthy's way. It's still hurting her to this day (possibly some kind of community-based curse born from pure hate).

    After whatever Anthy did to him, Dios eventually becomes Akio. He is now a mega sexyawesome badass, but his prince powers and innocence are sealed away. He wants them back so he can have his cake and eat it. He tries a bunch of things over time and eventually figures that the only thing that can break the seal on his power (i.e.: the Rose Gate) is a prince's sword. But he was the only real prince around before, so who you gon' call when there are no more princes in town? Answer: you gotta make your own somehow. You have to create some artificial way of moulding a heart noble and strong enough to contain a true prince's sword (because in this world, every soul has a sword to represent it).

    Akio spends some time devising a way to do this, all the while banging his sister because she is the only person he has left who understands him; likewise, she thinks that Akio is all she has. Anthy goes along with his plans because fuck the world, man, everyone hates me and I shall spite the haters through the pain any way I can.

    image

    Eventually, Akio gets in with Ohtori. With the help of Mikage (who freezes in time/becomes a ghost for his own reasons) and the occult-ish sacrifice of the 100 boys in the fire, they gain access to the illusion powers of the planetarium. It's not prince power, but it'll sure help.

    So anyway, princes. How do you make 'em? Well, you gotta have a princess to fight for. That's coo', says Akio. I have this fine-ass bitch ho I can make into a princess. Here, have a Rose Bride. Now to cover the fighting part. We can't just throw Anthy in front of a monster every week because those things don't really exist in modern times anymore. I guess we could just have all the prince wannabes fight each other to keep the operation self-contained? Yeah, that could work. How to get them to do it, though? Ummm... I dunno, let's say if they participate, they get whatever they want! That's not really a lie, right? We're after revolutionary power that'll grant your heart's desire. I just won't tell them who the power is really for (suckeerrrrs). Okay, so we set up this system where the kids most likely to fall for this shit fight over my sister, and whoever comes out on top after however long has got to have proven themselves worthy.

    Duel, rinse, repeat.

    Akio and Anthy probably do this whole duel shebang more than once (the last scene in the last episode implies that they've done this all before, since Akio is preparing letters to send to new duellists). It's not been working, so Akio decides to try something new: he decides to hit a potential prince candidate while they're young and build them up over a longer period of time. So, he appears as an illusory Dios to an impressionable girl who has just experienced a lot of trauma. He convinces her "you can be a prince if you just stay noble your whole life and oh by the way if you also happen to chase after me by way of this enticing ring clue I've left lol."

    Cut to seven-ish years later and Utena gets to Ohtori. The show plays out from episode 1. Utena duels her way through the system, and eventually her soul sword starts to get stronger. She is able to ditch the Sword of Dios and replace it with her own soul sword in ep 25, signalling to Akio that she just needs a little more nudging and a little more suffering to make things complete. He tests her and tempts her to make sure she's strong enough in the end. Also maybe because if things don't work out, he gets a new princess out of the deal (sweet).

    In the end, Utena almost succumbs, but pushes back at the last minute. She almost overcomes Akio until Anthy stabs her in the back. Before all this, Anthy had found herself growing closer to Utena than she wanted to admit, and it scared her because all she knew before was hate. She thanks Utena for the tiny taste of friendship before going off to what's familiar: being hate's fall girl.

    Akio takes Utena's sword and goes to the Rose Gate while Anthy distracts the Million Swords of Hate with her boobs. The sword eventually breaks. Akio is like "fuq dis shit" and goes to get a fruity drink. Utena, not wanting to let herself be beaten or see her friend hurt anymore, forces herself to get up and makes it to the Gate. She opens it with the one thing Akio never tried: real human emotion and the desire to help another human being (ZOMG NO, REALLY?). Behind the gate is not what we thought was back there, but a coffin containing Anthy's lost sense of self ("At last, we meet").

    When Akio sees the coffin he freaks; he knows the swords are going to go berserk and target someone else if Utena takes away the scapegoat. The first thing the swords converge on is Utena, either because she is the closest thing to a prince around (remember: they would probably hate the prince now because he left them all that time ago) or because she set the "witch" free.

    Cut to later. The shadow girls tell us that Utena either got hospitalized, transferred, or expelled (possibly all three). Anthy has built up enough sense of self and faith in her friend that she can leave her adolescence and her eternal mythic abusive relationship behind, which is the core revolution of the show.

    As for all the other characters along the way: we explore them because they're part of the duelling game too, and we have to see how Utena deals with them, overcomes them, and how her problems relate to theirs in order for Utena's successes to mean anything. They also tie in to the overarching themes of adolescence and nostalgia, but I promised nothing but the surface level stuff so we'll leave it at that.

    Anyway, TL;DR: Akio is left to play prince alone for all eternity, everyone else moves on with their lives, and Anthy's search for Utena... Well, I think the artbook can answer this one.


    Any questions?
  • edited November 2012
    Also I will totally not argue with you that for all that Utena means something, a lot of that symbolism is probably bullshit. I don't know what the fuck the cats mean, and while I bet I could come up with something, it's probably just Ikuhara being Ikurhara. Better symbols are things like the butterfly/caterpillar/larva pictures in the elevator sequence, the lipstick on Mikage's tea cup, colour symbolism in general, the whole Nanami's egg episode as an extended metaphor for menstruation, etc. I can say with a fair degree of certainty that you're probably not missing any huge metaphor with the boxing kangaroo.

    P.S. - Wow, I did not know this forum had a character limit for posts. Makes sense, but it is so high that I never reached it until now, lol.
    Post edited by Eryn on
  • edited November 2012
    Thanks for your detailed response. I can't properly reply you right now beacuse I don't have the entire show memorized and there's a lot of details; maybe during the course of these videos.

    But I still can't see the sense of it beyond the first half. I understand what you are explaining, but I don't see its logic within the diegesis of the show. Specially arround the final chapter part, I think you are mixing representations/metaphors with reality (the swords, the coffin), and that I can not buy (even if that is the real explanation, wich probably is).

    I would like to be a little more detailed, but I can't figure out how to put spoiler text.
    Post edited by 5ro4 on
  • edited November 2012
    Ok, now.

    Massive spoilers, etc.

    So, Angy saved Akio and earned the hate of the people years ago, so now, in an... alternate dimension? There is a storm of swords keeping a coffin with Angy's self inside?
    Nonsense. Also, I don't actually see how the powers and innocence of the prince and Akio wanting to open the coffin at first but freaking out when Utena does match, nor the council of the rose, nor the black rose, nor eternal suffering Angy prefering to keep suffering than being saved by Utena.

    And all that stuff about eternity being just a lie... well, I would probably call that bad writing.

    I also remember that scene with Akio in his prince paper showing Utena "something eternal" and magically transporting her to a magical dimension in which Angy is in perpetual fisical pain because of the swords.
    For a show whose central purpose is so centred on allegory, themes, and symbolism, I think it's unreasonable to expect that it also functions 100% on a purely logical, popcorn level.
    First half pretty much does. I'm not asking that extreme, though.
    Post edited by 5ro4 on
  • Well that's on you for it not making sense, then, I think. Like I said, it made enough sense for me and a lot of other people, so I don't know what else to tell you if you still don't think that explanation was enough.

    Though, from what I'm gathering, is the problem really more just in the inconsistency between the first arc and the other three? Like, would it have been better to you if it had been either all like the first season, or all like the later ones? Consistency is a fair enough thing to want. I would argue, though, that the purpose for the inconsistency in this case is that the director purposefully wants to throw the viewer for a loop. It's a bait-and-switch tactic; he draws you in by making you think you're watching something else, and then goes "Haha, I tricked you into watching my magical pink shoujo anime and now I will shift gears and TOTALLY BLOW YOUR MIND!"

    It's basically the filmic equivalent of hiding some nice steak with premium sauces inside a thick burger patty. The burger is tasty in the way that good burgers are tasty when you start to eat it. Then you hit the different sauces and are like "Wait, what? Hey, this isn't what I ordered! What the fuck is this shi... Oh my god. ...Oh my god this is delicious! This is so not what I ordered but this is amazing! Dear lord, this Utena Burger is fabulous! What's in this shit?! :DDD"

    In this case, I think you might just be the person who really gets stuck on the fact that the steak is not what you ordered, or the sauces are ones that you don't like. You would have preferred either to just have the burger you started with, or to know ahead of time that you were getting a saucy steak. Does that sound about right? I'm not saying that's a bad thing; I don't like biting into a sandwich and coming across a sauce I don't like either. xO I'm just trying to understand if that's your major problem with the show.

    Hmm, now I'm curious: have you seen Evangelion? If so, what was your reaction to it?

    As for spoiler-y things:

    In this case, you kind of have to accept certain vagaries about the world of the show because it's clearly drawing on fairy tales and myths about princesses, princes, far off castles, heroes on white horses, witches, etc. etc. Fairy tales don't tend to have grounded settings or time periods; they are timeless. As living fairy tale archetypes, Akio and Anthy are thus also timeless/immortal and their origin/place in the world is not very well-defined.

    If it makes it easier, you could look at it as their having literally left the world of history's myths and fairy tales and "fallen" to the level of the real world (triggered by Anthy sealing Dios). So yes, you could look at it as an alternate dimension thing if you want to bring it to a really literal level (which I don't think is necessary, but you can do it). In that case, the Million Swords of Hate would stem from that space of myth and legend as well.

    As for the other things you said don't make sense: 1) I explained that first one in my above summary; Akio thought that his powers would be behind the gate, but once he saw that it was actually the coffin, he had an "OH SHIT" moment. He didn't know Anthy's coffin would be there; he was expecting something else. 2) The Student Council and the Black Rose Saga are basic structural parts of the show that will probably come up in the videos, so I'll leave those be for now.

    3) That's one of the key points of the show, though. Eternity is a lie. It's a fairy tale. Even the kind of "eternity" that Anthy and Akio have (i.e.: their immortality) isn't something that's really going to last forever; if nothing else, they'd eventually be killed by the sun going supernova or the inevitable heat death of the universe or something. More importantly, Anthy broke the cycle of eternity at the end by finally breaking away from Akio, proving that they didn't have to keep going around in circles forever.

    Think of the title of the show's theme song, "Rondo Revolution". It means "Round-dance Revolution", aka: the revolution of the round dance. That is practically a spoiler for the end of the show. The revolution is that Anthy stops this miserable dance she's been doing round and round in circles since time immemorial, grows the fuck up, and goes on to start a new "dance" (read: an actual adult life) with Utena instead.


    Also: I hate being the spelling police, but it's "Anthy" with a "th", not "Angy".
  • edited November 2012

    Though, from what I'm gathering, is the problem really more just in the inconsistency between the first arc and the other three? Like, would it have been better to you if it had been either all like the first season, or all like the later ones?
    That's it. But it's not that the second half is not what I was promissed. I think the first half is the nice steak, and the second some strange dish that's supposed to be exquisite and delicuous but it just tastes weird.

    And I don't think it tricks you to blow your mind or anything. In the first half all the great interesting themes are already present, you want to know more and you know it's going to be awesome, but instead of that awsome, deep finale that explains everything, you get new characters, tons of presumably bullshit symbolism and new information that takes away the sense of things that made it. There's a line between being carefully and intelligently cryptic and being vague, misleading and don't wainting people to actually understand you.

    have you seen Evangelion? If so, what was your reaction to it?
    My reaction was something like: "WHAT THE FUCK?!? WHAT THE HELL IS THIS FUCKING BULLSHIT?!? THEY HAVE RUINED EVERYTHING AND I'M SO FUCKING MAD." Then I watched the movies (tripping balls) and then I read some jpg explaining everything and my soul was in peace again.

    The thing with evangelion is that you can't actually understand the show by itself. It has no conclusion, and even with the movies, there's a lot of vital information that's barely mentioned or not mentioned at all (I think it's in the manga?). So that's the flaw of evangelion. I love the story, the show is brilliantly done (except for the end) and I like the jpg explanation, but it's not in the show to be found, and that's a big flaw. Also, the end is a strong case of "I don't want people to understand what's happening". And I hate that.


    So, Utena mixes a fairy tale reality with our reality with a magic dimension, Akio just decides his powers are guarded beyond the gate and tries to open it during an eternity an it turns out he was wrong but lol whatever, real Anthy is in a coffin guarded by swords and there's a lot of people who talk about they being dead until they achieve the revolution, but none of them knows actually what the hell are they talking about. And then Anthy just says "fuck it, I'm out" and achieves maturity.


    No, I'm not seing the sense in all of that. I understand the sense you are trying to give it, but yes, I thing it needs to have a literal sense, for there is a literal world. I will not object to magical swords, castles floating upside down or tables moving by their own, but I need more solidity for the main plot.

    Like I said, I don't remember everything, so it's futile to keep arguing about it. I hope we can do it chapter by chapter while following GN. It will be my pleasure.

    Also: I hate being the spelling police, but it's "Anthy" with a "th", not "Angy".
    Whooops. Sorry. I was just typing it without thinking. Thanks for the call.
    Post edited by 5ro4 on
  • I remember waiting for this show to become available in the UK. Eventually I concluded it must suck else someone would have released it.. guess I was wrong.
  • So if anyone knows anyone who may be interested in buying the 1999 DVD released versions of this series, let me know.
    Wait, did you buy the remastered ones? You may want to reconsider selling the good ones. the remaster is not so well remastered.
    You're going to have to qualify that statement. It wasn't a mere remaster, they recolored and smoothed out the animation with Ikuhara's supervision to make it more consistent from episode to episode, correcting the corners that were cut due to budget restrictions at the time they made it. Also completely remixed audio, a couple higher-quality sound effects Ikuhara wanted, and even some dialogue re-recorded with the original voice actors, again, to make up for the corners cut in the original version. It's pretty much the definitive Utena.
    Sweet.

    So if anyone wants the DVDs circa 1999. Some have never been used, I'd be happy to sell it to you for $50 + shipping.
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