This forum is in permanent archive mode. Our new active community can be found here.

GeekNights Tuesday - How to Not Suck at Taking Your Turn

edited December 2012 in GeekNights

Tonight on GeekNights, we discuss the finer points of taking one's turn in another installment of our long running series: How to Not Suck. It turns out there are ten simple things one must do to take one's turn in a timely fashion.

  1. Ask rules questions immediately
  2. Pay attention to the game
  3. Consider moves when it's not your turn
  4. Recognize when a decision is arbitrary
  5. Recognize when a decision is effectively arbitrary due to your own lack of processing ability
  6. Develop directional heuristics
  7. If in doubt, maximize the simplest available positional heuristic
  8. Use pattern recognition to develop heuristics
  9. Learn mechanical skills (e.g., shuffling cards)
  10. Develop a gaming lexicon
In the news, Street Fighter X Mega Man is real, and the Wii-U has ridiculous time-based restrictions in Europe. Also, we'll be presenting at MAGFest, and ConnectiCon panel submissions are coming soon!
Download MP3
Source Link
Post edited by Rym on
«13

Comments

  • Much of this advice applies even outside of the realm of games. Multiple choice tests, for example.
  • I've not yet listened to the episode, but I prefer staggered shuffling.
  • Close to the same advice we give to newb DND players (though I'm sure a large portion of this forum would prefer to tell them to play a different game). Think about what you want to do on your turn before it comes up, look at the tactical situation, and for the love of god if you're the cleric HEAL PEOPLE!
  • Asian people shuffle strangely and incredibly quickly.
  • (Yes, I'm blotting down thoughts as I listen to the episode because I'm doing other writings and it's easy enough to switch back and forth between this and that. Also, waiting for news about the birth of my new niece.)

    When I poop is determined almost 100% by what I ate and how long ago I ate it. I can calculate more or less when the poop is going to happen. I don't know how Rym can poop like clockwork.

    That Street Fighter X Mega Man thing looks astounding! I cannot wait. The last Mega Man I played was 4 and I beat all of them up to that point. I am torn. I'd trade off that weird, arbitrary rule for all the other cool stuff that comes along with living in a European country.

    The Star Crafts were, are, and shall remain adorable. Le Havre? Never played it so meh.

    I have not watched Utena and I have no desire to but I did watch the first of the videos. The use of clips seems fairly heavy. Wouldn't cutting back on those reduce production time?


    1. Ask rules questions immediately

    I will, at times, act even when I'm unsure about the rules. If I'm wrong, I assume the table will correct me if I'm incorrect. Obviously this only applies to games I'm learning.

    I'll also ask rules questions to, in effect, stall for time or throw them off my scent. "Can I do X?" when i have no intention of doing X.

    2. Pay attention to the game

    Derp.

    3. Consider moves when it's not your turn

    Yeah, this is really basic stuff. It's even more helpful even if you insist on thinking a lot. By helpful I mean it will make the rest of the players less likely to strangle you.

    4. Recognize when a decision is arbitrary

    Do you mean "effectively arbitrary"? In isolation, everything matters. It's kind of the point of having the rule/mechanic in place to begin with.

    5. Recognize when a decision is effectively arbitrary due to your own lack of processing ability

    I think most choices would boil down to this, if you're playing a game for the first time. Scott tangentially mentioned that you shouldn't try to cram so much learning into one game. This is also a great anti-strangulation technology.

    I do always spend a great deal of time talking after a game and breaking down what went well and what didn't, obvious mistakes, etc. I really don't like it when people finish a game and just walk away but that's just me.

    6. Develop directional heuristics

    This would only apply to playing the same game over and over. It may be possible to boil down mechanics in this way, as well. An example of this would be deck thinning in card games. It's extremely powerful and you should pretty much always be doing it. No game I am aware of punishes you for having a thin deck.

    7. If in doubt, maximize the simplest available positional heuristic

    "Keep it simple, stupid."

    8. Use pattern recognition to develop heuristics

    Whoa, whoa, whoa! You're asking that people not only pay attention but also LEARN from doing so? But seriously, this should come naturally. If it doesn't, maybe other mediums are better entertainment for you.

    9. Learn mechanical skills (e.g., shuffling cards)

    Willful ignorance of something like this is annoying. I sometimes game with people who have physical handicaps and can't do certain things but in those cases, I have no problem helping that person out.

    10. Develop a gaming lexicon

    Familiarity will always help in a learning curve. If someone plays enough games and likes doing so, this is something that should come naturally as well.


    Back in the "prime" of my Magic playing days, I'd attending the weekly Friday Night Magic and I'd bring tournament level decks. It got so that if I walked in, the players and organizers would try to bribe me into not playing or if I did enter, they'd basically hand me first place prizes.

    So in response to that, I decided to make a deck based around Battle of Wits. I played it to a combined 18-1-1 record over about 6-7 weeks. The kid that forced the draw was so happy and the loss was to a land clump that was 7 cards deep.

    It basically took the same deck composition proportions (22-24 land, rest non-land) and had every tutor, lots of card draw and really efficient removal for permanents. It was hella fun to play.
  • I don't know how Rym can poop like clockwork
    Fiber.
  • edited December 2012
    4. Recognize when a decision is arbitrary

    Do you mean "effectively arbitrary"? In isolation, everything matters. It's kind of the point of having the rule/mechanic in place to begin with.
    Wrong! Many games force you to make decisions that are completely arbitrary. Sometimes the player is made to choose between equally effective options. Sometimes the player is presented with options that are not equal, but all the heuristics in the world will not be able to determine which one will be better than the other. In these cases, choose randomly. Part of being a good gamer is quickly recognizing these decisions so that you do not waste mental energy on them.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • edited December 2012
    Haven't listened to the episode yet, but based on the list, I have something to add: Set up your game intelligently and delegate bookkeeping duties to all players.

    Picture a game of Ticket to Ride. If one guy is sitting at the end of the table with all of the cards, and people are asking him to pass cards down twice per turn, he's not going to be able to plot out his moves. The game will hit a speed bump when it comes to his turn.

    Put those cards where everyone can reach them. Don't be a lazy ass and ask for help if lifting your butt a few inches would let you reach a piece you need to move. At worst, rotate so that you always ask the person to your right (who just went) to assist, not the guy who is about to go.
    Post edited by Matt on
  • Haven't listened to the episode yet, but based on the list, I have something to add: Set up your game intelligently and delegate bookkeeping duties to all players.

    Picture a game of Ticket to Ride. If one guy is sitting at the end of the table with all of the cards, and people are asking him to pass cards down twice per turn, he's not going to be able to plot out his moves. The game will hit a speed bump when it comes to his turn.

    Put those cards where everyone can reach them. Don't be a lazy ass and ask for help if lifting your butt a few inches would let you reach a piece you need to move. At worst, rotate so that you always ask the person to your right (who just went) to assist, not the guy who is about to go.
    I never thought of that as a thing that slows games down, but just as something that annoys players who have to stretch out their arms. This problem usually happens in games when there is a board, and some non-dividable shared resource, like a deck of ordered cards, is not located in the middle of the board. Even in cases when the resource is dividable, table space often keeps it in one spot. Even super beginner players are usually smart enough to put half of the bank of cash on each side of a board.
  • Honestly? The bookkeeping and changemaking has never slowed a game down for me. It's always players themselves being slow.
  • The bookkeeping doesn't slow the immediate turn down, I was trying to say that when put on one person, it might prevent them from following several of your 10 rules b/c their attention is split.

    This is probably a rare case. The TtR example jumped out at me but now I can't think of another one. TtR turns can move blazingly fast, except when you really need to think something out (selecting new routes, deciding between two color choices that will set future strategy). If everyone else just takes two cards off the top of the deck, you get very little time in-between turns, so bookkeeping would definitely be a drag.
  • It is interesting to note that popular "Euro" games tend to minimize and distribute bookkeeping.
  • It is interesting to note that popular "Euro" games tend to minimize and distribute bookkeeping.
    Games with too much bookkeeping should be video games. Imagine trying to play Master of Orion exactly like the video game version, but with a board. It's impossible! But Eclipse elegantly abstracts almost the same exact thing and has multiple physical innovations to minimize busywork calculations and recordkeeping.
  • Rubin might win more games if he slowed down a bit and thought about the strategy he was using :-p
  • Rubin might win more games if he slowed down a bit and thought about the strategy he was using :-p
    I already win a lot. If I slowed down, I might never lose.
  • My problem is always analysis paralysis. Usually to a point where I end up just doing something dumb because I get fed up taking too long and just reflexively do something. Then the rest of the game I bitch about that move where I know I threw the game......

    Which is similar to the Rym "I'm Soooo going to lose" strategy of trying to get everyone to kill Rubin and not keep screwing him because he has no chance, until he suddenly does and wins :-p
  • edited December 2012
    Wrong! Many games force you to make decisions that are completely arbitrary.
    Examples? Sorry. I was at the hospital most of the night waiting for the birth of my new niece. She's fine, BTW. =D

    Sometimes the player is made to choose between equally effective options. Sometimes the player is presented with options that are not equal, but all the heuristics in the world will not be able to determine which one will be better than the other. In these cases, choose randomly. Part of being a good gamer is quickly recognizing these decisions so that you do not waste mental energy on them.

    I move much faster than most of the people I play with and I win a good amount, but not ALL the time. IIRC, I am 4-0 vs. Scott Rubins in competitive games and I'm 5-1 with Ryms.

    Post edited by Dromaro on
  • edited December 2012
    The most basic arbitrary decision is rock/paper/scissors. Most of the others are the same thing in a different form.

    You are playing Stratego. Where do you put your flag? Do you put your strong units near the left, right, or middle channel? If you don't cheat, this is a rock/paper/scissors arbitrary decision.

    Other arbitrary decisions exist when there are two random choices. You are playing Ent Decker there are many huts you can choose from. If you are the first to go for huts, and you have not yet been able to peek into any huts, which hut you go for is an arbitrary decision. It's like choosing whether or not to go in the left door or right door in a dungeon where you have no clues pertaining to what is behind the doors.

    The third kind is the two equal options decision. Let's say you play a game of Settlers. You get to place the first settlement. You have no idea where other players will place their settlements. There are two spaces to choose from that have the same odds. Maybe one is 6,5,10 and the other is 8,9,4. The first one is brick/brick/wood and the other is rock/rock/wheat. If you pick the first, you are going to play a game with a brick/wood longest road strategy. If you pick the second you are going to play a city strategy. Either of these strategies give very good and perhaps equal chances of winning. It doesn't matter which one you go with, so just pick one quickly.

    Perhaps you could analyze the entire board to find some reason that one spot is better than the other. Maybe one of them is one spot closer to a useful port. Maybe you know your friend likes wood, and this spot is better for blocking off his wood access. Maybe one spot is near the desert so other players are unlikely to block your road early in the game. These things might be true, but if you consider all of them, the other players will be very annoyed with you taking so long. The amount of time it will take you to decide is disproportionately long compared to the very small increase in your chance of winning, if any.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • I get similarly annoyed in the game Lords of Waterdeep (think baby-mode Caylus); a person has no quests (or no quests they have a chance of completing this late in the game), so it's down to "get the leftover victory points" (things like gold and adventurers), and people will analyze things to death, even when one point is clearly better, or both are exactly the same (ex, 4 gold vs. 2 adventurers. Adventurers are 1 VP each, gold is .5 VP each.). Pick the one that pisses off the guy in the lead the most if you can, otherwise put your guy down and let the rest of us do shit.
  • Risk legacy is great at giving individual game wins out randomly and basically saying FUCK you to any plans you made with a random event. What's important is playing the metagame and setting up the board to doom everyone else.
  • I have some new people to play board games with, but their only experience previously was playing Monopoly with their families as little kids. I've been trying to teach them what little gaming stuff I know, and its been going well so far, but I think I'll point them at this episode before we start doing anything too complicated.

    We've been playing Carcassonne, and I think we've pretty much gotten it down to as fast as we're going to be able to. There's a barrier in the fact that you can only plan so much when you have no idea what tile you're going to draw on your turn.

    We're considering doing a thing where you draw your next tile as soon as you play one, so you can be coming up with your next move during the other peoples' turns. Dunno how that'll work out with the Expansions, but I don't think it'll negatively impact the base game too much.
  • You should draw the tile as soon as you play one.
  • You should always purposely go really slow on your turn so your enemies' minds get clouded with rage.
  • You should always purposely go really slow on your turn so your enemies' minds get clouded with rage.
    This will only work if you survive.
  • edited December 2012
    Or offer them Trader Joe's Crispy Oatmeal Chocolate Chip Cookies. (^_−)−☆

    Also this episode is one of the many reasons I don't like playing games with some of Jeremy's friends.
    Post edited by Rochelle on
  • Scott: don't even take a shit if you don't have to.
  • You should draw the tile as soon as you play one.
    That does change the game in a way I'm not sure is ok. I'm so not changing how a game works for the perceived sake of shaving a lil' bit of time.
  • You should draw the tile as soon as you play one.
    That does change the game in a way I'm not sure is ok. I'm so not changing how a game works for the perceived sake of shaving a lil' bit of time.
    I jokingly tell this to Rym, but it's not true. In what way does it change the game?
  • You should draw the tile as soon as you play one.
    That does change the game in a way I'm not sure is ok. I'm so not changing how a game works for the perceived sake of shaving a lil' bit of time.
    I jokingly tell this to Rym, but it's not true. In what way does it change the game?
    The only change is that it gives you more information to plan your turn in advance. There is no other effect on the game, and if anyone responds here and says that you may be "taking somebody else's tile" I will punch you through the internet. They're all independently random tile draws. Everyone still gets to draw and play the same amount of tile, so the integrity of the competition is intact.

    Don't get me started on people at the Blackjack table who think they are kings b/c they memorized the probability chart, and get belligerent when a newbie makes a dumb move, "tainting the deck" and causing everybody to get different cards than they "should have gotten."
  • This is going to take me very close to Matt is going to smack me territory. Let me say that a very small portion of this leads to "taking someone elses tile" but that annoys more too. It's an oversimplification of a deeper idea.

    Let me first say that the proposed change could just as easily add time and not shave it. Suppose you draw a tile and you have the perfect spot and the player before you takes or otherwise spoils that spot. Now you go back in to the tank and have to figure out a new spot.

    Yes, I'm aware that if you play according to the maxims put forth in the "How to not suck taking your turn" episode, that's minimized. However, the fact that the episode had to be made is telling that not enough people do such things. There is something to be said for playing a game "as presented" in order to avoid having to explain such rituals and changes to those outside of your group.

    In effect, by making such changes, your making the air hockey situation that much worse for yourself. That may or may not be a factor for you but you do run the risk of alienating or running off people for it.

    I say this because I made a change to Lords of Waterdeep and now 4 people refuse to play with me because of it. That change? The half crescent is worth 4 and not 5. Nothing in that game costs 5 and everything is in increments of 2! Because I made a completely irrelevant change, I've scared away some people.

    It wasn't specified if the pre-drawn tile is public or private but I'll assume private. To add so much public info would require another couple of paragraphs but I trust anyone here reading this already knows a hint of those implications. You also create a situation of trying to read reactions of people as they pre-draw their tile. It is potentially useful information that must be accounted for.

    Sir Matt, the opportunity cost of having the mere chance of drawing "your" tile cannot be ignored. That also allows for your hated taking of "someone elses" tile. Don't think it's a keystone to my argument *twitches* but it is a real thing that does exist.

    Forgive the lack of any follow through on this next point because I just rolled out of bed and am still waking up... On a general level, you're breaking information availability. Knowing what tile someone else cannot draw because you have makes your intellectual load easier in a spot where you really shouldn't have that luxury. Saving time, perhaps, but also changing the flow of information from the game to the player.

    To sort of wrap up, it's an interesting change that I'd be willing to try if everyone at the table knew going in and was ok with it. Note I never said it was a "bad" idea, just that it was a signfigant enough change that I'd have to hurdle past before giving it a go.
Sign In or Register to comment.