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GeekNights Book Club - The Player of Games

edited June 2013 in GeekNights

Tonight on the GeekNights Book Club, we discuss Iain M Banks' The Player of Games. If ever there was a novel that was in our wheelhouse, it's this one. We also talk briefly about some of our more recent Kickstarter backings, and enjoy the "that guys" we poked on Reddit after one fifth of our Anime Boston performances.

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  • edited June 2013
    I think you could hit a chord with "That is Not a Game; You are Not a Gamer." The other one (can't remember), not so much. The trouble with riling up the "that guy" crowd in video gaming is that a large portion of those supporting shit games aren't even aware that gamer culture exists. It is middle-aged women on Facebook who used to play Farmville and are now addicted to Candy Crush. Your only shot at riling up an internet-savvy crowd and sparking that reaction may be to go after the MMO or the Call of Duty.
    Post edited by Matt on
  • I think the panel should be framed in the manner of this it is both a shaming and a parody of shaming non gamers at the same time.
  • I think the panel should be framed in the manner of this it is both a shaming and a parody of shaming non gamers at the same time.
    I think people who play Angry Birds are gamers more than people who play Mass Effect or JRPGs.

    The point is that the words game and gamer are applied to such a wide variety of people who engage in a wide variety of activities that often don't have that much in common. But because we use the same vocabulary to refer to all of them, the community tries to falsely group these disparate peoples together as one.
  • Scott 'encouraged' me to share my comments on "player of games" with the forum rather than just those two. So here's what I said,

    1. Ship names: If I were a mind I'd call myself either 'I told you I was ill' or 'Take my wife...'
    2. The Fire Planet inspiration (and others) are detailed in 'Raw Spirit' which is essentially about whisky making in Scotland but he talks about a lot of other stuff.
    3. The order of reading. While Scott is generally right that there is no real order to these books and they can be read in any order you like there are two later books that make crucial references to earlier ones. So read 'Look To Windward' and 'Surface Detail' last (maybe Hydrogen Sonata too - I haven't finished it yet)
    4. Ultraspace - explained in Excession. Also ship-name-tastic

    My favourite Culture novels are,

    - Player Of Games
    - Excession
    - Use Of Weapons

    The weakest, I feel, is Consider Phlebas which read like a series of cool sci-fi ideas strung together.

    His non-culture sci fi is good too but I hated 'Feersum Endjinn' which has a really annoying way of telling one of the characters stories.

    And his contemporary work as Iain Banks is great too. Particularly The Wasp Factory.

  • littleidiot is one of our favorite people, and you should all respect. ;^)
  • Dear lord are the comments on Reddit maddening.

    No love for Matter? It was a tender book that covered some cool ideas. Had to give up on Consider Phlebas as I found most of the characters rather dull. Picking up The Wasp Factory this afternoon.
  • List of ship names
    My favourite being, 'Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The'

  • Dear lord are the comments on Reddit maddening.
    We try to hold back the tide. Most of the time, the tide wins, but we relish our little victories.
  • Take heart in that we spoke to the silent majority. The likes dwarf the dislikes, and generally only the trolls and "that guys" comment repeatedly.
  • edited June 2013
    My favourite Culture novels are,

    - Player Of Games
    - Excession
    - Use Of Weapons

    The weakest, I feel, is Consider Phlebas which read like a series of cool sci-fi ideas strung together.
    Hm, now to figure out if I read Use of Weapons or the copy of Consider Phlebas I've had sitting on my shelf.

    It's been a few months since I read Player of Games, but the episode reinforced how much I enjoyed it. Regarding the politics in multiplayer Azad, if I'm remembering it correctly, every game Gurgeh plays before Azad is also a two-player game (or a team game with two teams), so no opportunity for politics. I remember a game with Yay and a few other friends at his home that may have been multiplayer, but I would have to go back and reread that part to be sure.
    Post edited by pence on
  • He may or may not play any political games in the book prior to Azad, but we are let to believe he has played every conceivable kind of game at some point in his past.
  • Player of Games always makes my top 5 list of favourite science fiction novels ever, so I'm glad you guys enjoyed it as much as I did. Except I've read it four times now.

    Despite what Scott says about no order for Culture novels, it's best to read them in kinda-publication order. While events and characters aren't spoiled from one to the next, there are themes that are introduced in some which are better to read before others.

    Read Consider Phlebus before Look to Windward.
    Read Player of Games right before or after State of the Art.
    Read those two before Surface Detail.
    Read Surface Detail before The Hydrogen Sonata
    Read Excession before The Hydrogen Sonata too.

    Matter is my least favourite Culture novel. It's not bad, but compared to the others... meh.

    I think the only other at the same level as Player of Games is Use of Weapons.
  • Notice how he recognized the politics in that 10-player game of Azad immediately.
  • Take heart in that we spoke to the silent majority. The likes dwarf the dislikes, and generally only the trolls and "that guys" comment repeatedly.
    Right now, my problem is that the "That guys" and trolls are the first impression of the community, as they're the most active.
  • Take heart in that we spoke to the silent majority. The likes dwarf the dislikes, and generally only the trolls and "that guys" comment repeatedly.
    Right now, my problem is that the "That guys" and trolls are the first impression of the community, as they're the most active.
    Also, don't forget that a lot of those downvotes on the original post are not "real", but are automatically assigned from reddit in proportion to your upvotes.

  • My Culture ship name would be Leave Enough for Luck.
  • Take heart in that we spoke to the silent majority. The likes dwarf the dislikes, and generally only the trolls and "that guys" comment repeatedly.
    Right now, my problem is that the "That guys" and trolls are the first impression of the community, as they're the most active.
    Also, don't forget that a lot of those downvotes on the original post are not "real", but are automatically assigned from reddit in proportion to your upvotes.

    Fair, but I'm talking about the commentors. :<
  • edited June 2013
    Take heart in that we spoke to the silent majority. The likes dwarf the dislikes, and generally only the trolls and "that guys" comment repeatedly.
    Right now, my problem is that the "That guys" and trolls are the first impression of the community, as they're the most active.
    Also, don't forget that a lot of those downvotes on the original post are not "real", but are automatically assigned from reddit in proportion to your upvotes.

    Fair, but I'm talking about the commentors. :<</p>
    I was talking to Rym more than you, but yeah, the /r/anime community in the comments section is not exactly the most desirable slice of the anime community a lot of the time. I tend to stay away from it, mostly because I know I read bad manga, but you just try and tell the "That Guy"s of the Anime and manga community that something is bad, despite it being something they enjoy. It's not like you can't enjoy bad stuff - hell, I revel in it, and I've had more enjoyable experiences with bad manga than most good manga - but saying "This thing you like isn't of the highest quality, but it's enjoyable despite" is taken like it should be a capital offense.

    Post edited by Churba on
  • I once wrote down a load of Culture ship names I came up, but now I can't find the text file. They might come in handy if I ever get round to the "End of Culture" novel I have banging about in my head. I'd hoped Iain Banks would write it himself, but no it's up to his fans to imagine what happens in the far future of the Culture.

    Anyway, here's some I remember:

    GSV For the sake of all that's...
    GOU Eat this
    GCU Should have seen that coming
    ROU Fueled by gravitas
    GCV Boo!
    GSV I see what you did there
  • Finished the book this morning. Enjoyed it all though found the end a bit hard to get my head round. The other problem I had was visualising the game its self, I had something similar to chess and C&C in my head which Im sure isn't right.
  • edited June 2013
    I still haven't read Player of Games (requesting from library) but all the discussion on the what are you currently reading thread got me to pick up Consider Phlebas, which I thought was great.

    (I am waiting until I read the book to listen to the show so apologies if any of the following is redundant to what Rym and Scott have said.)

    I'm now reading Hydrogen Sonata which is a much smoother novel, probably because he has had so much more time to live in the universe he created. What I liked in Phlebas was that the Minds weren't the focus of the story like the Changer was. What I like in Sonata is that the Minds are so much more the focus of the story (also they're very funny). That's good writing.

    I really, really, really love the fact that these are all stand alone novels. It makes me want to read the series so much more because I know I'll get a complete story from each book and yet I also get what I like from a series -- a universe that is really interesting and challenging.

    I am in awe of Bank's mastery of hard science. I haven't enjoyed hard science fiction this much since I was reading Hal Clement as a teen. Actually I am just in awe of Banks and now very aware of how much we lost when he died.

    My culture ship name: You're kidding, right?
    Post edited by Constantine on
  • From a different discussion: My recommended reading order for those new to The Culture series. This order puts a few of the best books at the end, just to make sure people have something of high quality to look forward to.

    1. Player of Games. Probably the best introduction to the Culture, laying out Contact and Special Circumstances and all the rest. Viewpoint: normal culture citizen.

    2. Consider Phlebas. The war in this is the main threat threat the culture experiences at its own level. It's also the first book chronologically, so it makes sense to go near the start. Viewpoint: outside enemy.

    3. Excession. The best introductions to ships. While there are human-level characters, it's really all about the ships. It's also super fun! You need a break after some of the heavier books.

    4. Use of Weapons. Really heavy stuff, showing how war isn't all about ship minds having fun. Viewpoint: outsider being used by Contact and SC.

    5. The State of the Art. Once the Culture has been established, it's good to see where the Earth fits in with it. We also get to see more of Diziet Sma. Viewpoint: Culture insider looking at Earth.

    6. Inversions. A Culture novel without any character knowing about the Culture. This fits well with State of the Art, as you can imagine what it would be like for someone on Earth to be in the same situation.

    7. Matter. This is probably the most "minor" Culture book in the series, in my opinion. It's okay, and that's about it. At least after Inversions it'll get you back into the swing of spending time with ships and drones.

    8. Surface Detail. The first on the list of three "death and afterlife" Culture novels. This shows "man's" attempt at creating an afterlife.

    9. The Hydrogen Sonata. This shows the "science" of a true kind of afterlife on a civilization level, with much talk of subliming, or not subliming, and what life actually means when faced with something better after death.

    10. Look to Windward. This is quite out of sequence chronologically and by publishing date, but could be the best way to finish off the series. While the viewpoint is from an alien visiting the Culture, most of the action takes place within it, rather than outside it (like most of the other novels). It also goes well with Consider Phlebas, so it's good to have them topping (almost) and tailing this list. Finally it rounds out the mini-series about what happens after death... but I don't want to spoil it.


    What do you think of that then?
  • edited August 2013
    On the SFBRP we are reading all the Culture books in the above order. After an introduction episode (201) we've started off with the episode about Player of Games. If you want even more discussion about why this book rocks, check this out:

    SFBRP #202
    image

    Post edited by Luke Burrage on
  • Player of Games is still my favorite and probably the best.

    Use of Weapons is probably the most pointed and poignant to me.

    Look to Windward is my second favorite in terms of personal enjoyment.
  • I'm in the middle of Player of Games right now, and it's really great. It surprised me—I expected sci-fi, but all the differences between Azad and the Culture, and just the way the Culture regard sexual activity, sexes, and gender makes me want to learn more about how they live. I also appreciate the frequent, nonchalant references to related things that are really easily to identify with.

    Yay, her job, and the friendship of Gurgeh and Chamlis are super interesting.



    Also I found this and have no idea what it came from:

    image
  • General Game Playing from Stanford. Learn to program a game playing robot.
  • edited March 2014
    Player of Games was enjoyable, with minor issues. For myself, cheating would remove both the value and aesthetic of a win. Morat's decision to cheat struck me as unlikely in a skilled (and arrogant) game-player. Also, I would have liked to see Yay and the female Azad player feature as more than mere foils.

    Apart from that (and Consider, which I enjoyed), (so far) the rest of the series has been more of a slog. I absolutely enjoy the Minds and the worlds and potential built of techno-candy. But despite Being So Different TM, (many of) the human characters feel cheap -- single dimensional (mostly petulant) and static vehicles for plot. The woman 40 years pregnant with the Excessive detailed descriptions of her pregnancy-centric introspections and means of mutual impregnation, followed by lesbian love scene setup: distracting, annoying. Use of Weapons didn't cohere well and failed to really develop a sense of tragedy. I'm left wanting more of the skeleton characters, and less of the fleshed out ones.
    tl;dr -- Despite top notch world-building, Banks' best characters are the ones sparsely written. Caveat, I am halfway through the series.

    ship name: the LCU Necessarily Complicated
    Post edited by no fun girl on
  • Listening to the audio book instead of reading and an idea hit me... Maybe I should commission a serif the robes used by players in the great Azad tourney. Talk about an obscure cosplay no one will get!
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