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Book Club - The Player of Games by Ian M. Banks

edited April 2013 in GeekNights
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It was one of those weird coincidences where you suddenly hear about the same thing from multiple sources in a short time span. Multiple friends separately mentioned the Culture series of novels, and I became curious. Apparently they are about a far future utopia where there is no material scarcity. The second book in the series, "The Player of Games", is about a man living in that Utopia who is the best at playing games. If the back of the book is to be believed, he gets embroiled in some games with unusually high stakes.

Based on everything I have heard, I think this book, if not the entire Culture series, is more down the dead center of GeekNights alley than any book(s) can possibly be. If you listen to this podcast, you owe it to yourself to read this book. It may even be possible this book is more up our alleys than the Prince of Nothing.

Shortly after this book was selected we have learned that the author, Ian M. Banks, has terminal cancer. We are very sad that we did not discover or appreciate his works earlier in his life, and that not much more ink shall flow from his pen.

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Post edited by Apreche on
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  • We are very sad that we did not discover or appreciate his works earlier in his life, and that not much more ink shall flow from his pen.
    On the bright side, we'll always have the ones he already made.
  • Since I'm spending a lot of time driving and on the computer these days, audio book it is.
  • From a different discussion: My recommended reading order for those new to The Culture series. This order puts a few of the best books at the end, just to make sure people have something of high quality to look forward to.

    1. Player of Games. Probably the best introduction to the Culture, laying out Contact and Special Circumstances and all the rest. Viewpoint: normal culture citizen.

    2. Consider Phlebas. The war in this is the main threat threat the culture experiences at its own level. It's also the first book chronologically, so it makes sense to go near the start. Viewpoint: outside enemy.

    3. Excession. The best introductions to ships. While there are human-level characters, it's really all about the ships. It's also super fun! You need a break after some of the heavier books.

    4. Use of Weapons. Really heavy stuff, showing how war isn't all about ship minds having fun. Viewpoint: outsider being used by Contact and SC.

    5. The State of the Art. Once the Culture has been established, it's good to see where the Earth fits in with it. We also get to see more of Diziet Sma. Viewpoint: Culture insider looking at Earth.

    6. Inversions. A Culture novel without any character knowing about the Culture. This fits well with State of the Art, as you can imagine what it would be like for someone on Earth to be in the same situation.

    7. Matter. This is probably the most "minor" Culture book in the series, in my opinion. It's okay, and that's about it. At least after Inversions it'll get you back into the swing of spending time with ships and drones.

    8. Surface Detail. The first on the list of three "death and afterlife" Culture novels. This shows "man's" attempt at creating an afterlife.

    9. The Hydrogen Sonata. This shows the "science" of a true kind of afterlife on a civilization level, with much talk of subliming, or not subliming, and what life actually means when faced with something better after death.

    10. Look to Windward. This is quite out of sequence chronologically and by publishing date, but could be the best way to finish off the series. While the viewpoint is from an alien visiting the Culture, most of the action takes place within it, rather than outside it (like most of the other novels). It also goes well with Consider Phlebas, so it's good to have them topping (almost) and tailing this list. Finally it rounds out the mini-series about what happens after death... but I don't want to spoil it.


    What do you think of that then?
  • So far, my favorites are, in order:

    1. Player of Games
    2. Use of Weapons
    3. Consider Phlebas

    I'm going to read Excession next, so we'll see if that changes.
  • I also noticed that Use of Weapons and Consider Phlebas have almost opposite morals on one particular point. The latter pretty heavily implies that individuals don't matter in the course of war, and that heroes are not skilled or special so much as they are statistically lucky abberations. (Throw enough heroes at a problem, and it eventually solves itsef). The former hinges on the idea of notable individuals drastically altering the course of large scale events in war due to their own personal gravitas.

    I can reconcile them pretty well, actually, but it's not a quick thing to document.
  • Use of Weapons and Player of Games again have a nice symmetry in that the main character is both actor and acted upon in the sense of the title. The user of weapons is the weapon being used and the player of games is the piece being moved on the board.
  • RymRym
    edited March 2014
    So, here on Earth there are scientists actually striving to create the hells envisioned in Surface Detail...

    http://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/03/20/1218259/time-dilation-drug-could-let-heinous-criminals-serve-1000-year-sentences
    Post edited by Rym on
  • Rym said:

    So, here on Earth there are scientists actually striving to create the hells envisioned in Surface Detail...

    http://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/03/20/1218259/time-dilation-drug-could-let-heinous-criminals-serve-1000-year-sentences

    "After serving 1282 years in virtual hell prisoner released on DNA evidence."
  • Rym said:

    So, here on Earth there are scientists actually striving to create the hells envisioned in Surface Detail...

    http://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/03/20/1218259/time-dilation-drug-could-let-heinous-criminals-serve-1000-year-sentences

    Hmm... I'm a bit torn on this. On the one hand, this definitely seems like it could be ridiculously brutal. On the other hand, it may be preferable to the death penalty.
  • Any advancement in technology and our understanding of the human brain is good. We should definitely research it as much as we can, as it may have actual positive usage. Also, the research is likely to yield other unintended discoveries.

    But using this on anyone for the purpose of vengeance and torture is just evil. We need to be reducing our vengeance, not increasing it.
  • edited March 2014
    Apreche said:

    Any advancement in technology and our understanding of the human brain is good. We should definitely research it as much as we can, as it may have actual positive usage. Also, the research is likely to yield other unintended discoveries.

    But using this on anyone for the purpose of vengeance and torture is just evil. We need to be reducing our vengeance, not increasing it.

    I think it proposes an interesting question, though: What if you had a choice: 5 real years in prison, or 10 simulated years that only take, say, a day? What's more humane, taking 5 real years of a human's life, that they can never get back, or 10 years that never existed?
    Post edited by Neito on
  • Neito said:

    Apreche said:

    Any advancement in technology and our understanding of the human brain is good. We should definitely research it as much as we can, as it may have actual positive usage. Also, the research is likely to yield other unintended discoveries.

    But using this on anyone for the purpose of vengeance and torture is just evil. We need to be reducing our vengeance, not increasing it.

    I think it proposes an interesting question, though: What if you had a choice: 5 real years in prison, or 10 simulated years that only take, say, a day? What's more humane, taking 5 real years of a human's life, that they can never get back, or 10 years that never existed?
    That depends on a lot of things. I imagine you could create some pretty serious mental issues with a drug like that. Imagine if you lived a year in a day. Does that mean you feel like you went without food for 4 months? Do you go to sleep and get up 365 times in 24 hours? All the details have to be known.

    I already think that prison is inhumane to begin with, so changing it by forcing weird psychoactive drugs on prisoners isn't going to be any better in my eyes.
  • Wrong question. Time in prison should only be to keep dangerous people away from non-dangerous people. Time in prison as a punishment is not shown to reduce harm, and is only punishment. Punishing people and then freeing them early to cause more harm earlier? Fails both ways.
  • True, there needs to be general prison reform for non-dangerous criminals. Psychokillers and the like pretty much do need to be locked up for good, assuming there is no proper treatment to get them to stop being psychokillers. Even upon release, if the treatment has to be ongoing for the rest of their lives, as opposed to just a "take two of these and you'll be cured tomorrow morning" treatment, they probably would need constant monitoring to guarantee that they are maintaining the treatment. Any lapses would result in a return to incarceration.

    Now, for the garden variety, non-psychokiller, prisons should be more about rehabilitation than punishment. Figure out why they committed the crime and how to avoid it in the future, perhaps give them some sort of job training so that they don't need to be criminals when they leave, and then give them job placement assistance (as well as some protection against "refusing to hire former prisoners" provided those prisoners have been reformed) so that they can live a productive life without returning to crime.

    The last problem is with white collar criminals. Job training and such probably won't serve any useful purpose for them as they already are highly skilled. Perhaps substantial fines, such as a significant percentage of their future wages for a certain period of time, in addition to reparations to those they harmed, would be appropriate in this case.
  • What's the general opinion on messing with neurochemistry to rehabilitate people? Suppose we could do neurosurgery to make a psycho-killer not want to kill people anymore, with no extremely negative side affects. Is it worth changing their persona (potentially enough that you could say they were a new person) to eliminate the need to keep them in prison for the rest of their life?
  • What's the general opinion on messing with neurochemistry to rehabilitate people? Suppose we could do neurosurgery to make a psycho-killer not want to kill people anymore, with no extremely negative side affects. Is it worth changing their persona (potentially enough that you could say they were a new person) to eliminate the need to keep them in prison for the rest of their life?

    As per the culture, it's ok if we give them the choice.
  • Neito said:

    What if you had a choice: 5 real years in prison, or 10 simulated years that only take, say, a day? What's more humane, taking 5 real years of a human's life, that they can never get back, or 10 years that never existed?

    Inception scenario. They go crazy.
  • This kind of reminds me of the death of personality ala Babylon 5 and elsewhere. Whereas B5 did it with telepaths we might be able to, as Yosho said, change their personality, or wipe it and replace it, with something that would better society.

    It were an interesting question as to the ramifications of such a system, ensuring that the victims never interact with the body of the person who did those things, what if the original personality were to reassert itself, if possible, etc.
  • Apreche said:

    As per the culture, it's ok if we give them the choice.

    How do we determine if a person has the mental capabilities to make that choice, though, considering how we know that their thought process is already impaired?

    I guess that verges into the larger question of "informed consent," and how we determine it when (from what we know of neuroscience) the entire premise is kinda shaky.
  • argh! I have finally been getting around to some of the book club books as things to listen to at work, and Player of Games, and even anything by Ian M. Banks seems to not exist in audio form on the Bay of the Pirates. I looked at Audible.com and they want $23.60 for the audio book...
  • Just sign up for the free trial then cancel. Also they seem to give you huge discounts if you purchase both the kindle book and the audio book. I'm not sure if that requires a subscription though. But if you just want Player of Games then you could just get your free credit.
  • Not all of the Culture books are even available as ebooks.
  • I have all the culture books as ebooks.

    Also the Peter Kenny readings of the Culture books are some of the best audiobooks I've ever heard. I actually waited for Audible release of the State of the Art audiobook instead of reading the ebook.

    If you sign up for Audible, even for the free trial, please copy and paste this link: audibletrial.com/SFBRB
  • So did everyone guess the character delivering the commentary at the start of the acts?

    My guess was it was Mawhrin-Skel and he was hiding in the bracelet to keep Flere-Imsaho informed of whatever Gurgeh was thinking. And that wasn't quite right.


    My guess for how it would end was off too. I thought that the emperor would realise that playing the culture way was better than their traditional ways (Gurgeh and the Emperor play styles aligned well with their societies) and so would change their society for the better by adopting some of the culture's ideals.
  • MATATAT said:

    Just sign up for the free trial then cancel. Also they seem to give you huge discounts if you purchase both the kindle book and the audio book. I'm not sure if that requires a subscription though. But if you just want Player of Games then you could just get your free credit.

    I did a free audible trial quite a while ago, so that avenue is closed.
  • Finished Use of Weapons last week.

    Such a use of weapons, when anything could become weapon.
  • I'm almost done with Hydrogen Sonata. It's very interesting to look back at the other books, now that I've read almost all of them, with the perspective of knowing relatively much about the Culture.

    Every book enriches every other book, and I appreciate how off-handed references and even slang across the books are extremely internally consistent.

    I should have read Matter earlier than I did. Perhaps, it should be read immediately after Consider Phlebas. It's enjoyable, as Luke also said, but definitely weaker than most of the other books. I would have enjoyed it more if I'd known less about the universe at the time.
  • Consider Phlebas is coming next. I'll probably start tonight.
  • On mine and Juliane's re-read for the SFBRP, Matter is next (following the reading order I posted above). I really hope I'm going to get more out of it the second time through, as that has happened a few times with Culture books I didn't "get" the first time. But I'm not sure there's much not to get, unlike in Use of Weapons or Inversions.

    I'm most looking forward to Look to Windward of the four books remaining.
  • Matter seems pretty straightforward. Lots of themes around over-reaching, failing to understand the reasons your parents/betters tell you not to touch things, personal responsibility, etc... The most powerful story there, however, is just the personal growth of the two brothers who should be kings.
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