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Sex and Consent

California passed an excellent piece of legislation:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-29406138
"California has become the first US state to require students on state-funded campuses to have clear, active consent before all sexual activity... The legislation stipulates that voluntary agreement, rather than lack of resistance, defines consent."
I cannot imagine a person who opposes this who is not a terrible example of their species.
The National Coalition For Men condemned the bill as "misandric"
Aaaand, we're done here.
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Comments

  • It really is shocking that they had to pass a law to say "Hey! Heyyy! It's not cool to have sex without the other person wanting it to"
  • It really is shocking that they had to pass a law to say "Hey! Heyyy! It's not cool to have sex without the other person wanting it to"

    It's even more shocking considering we already have laws saying "Hey! You can't have sex without consent!" This is just a clarification of those laws since apparently enough assholes have tried to say "Well she didn't say no," as a defense.
  • I guess the only reason I can see that you might not like this is if you are afraid that no one will believe you got consent first. Without a contract or a permission slip or a witness it still falls on the word of one person against another. Which makes things messy. However I don't see how it would be any messier than it already is.

    Also it's kinda scary that lack of resistance was all you needed before.
  • Everybody wear GoPro cameras.
  • One word against another is a better situation than many at the moment!
  • edited September 2014
    Cremlian said:

    I guess the only reason I can see that you might not like this is if you are afraid that no one will believe you got consent first. Without a contract or a permission slip or a witness it still falls on the word of one person against another.

    This is something that shouldn't be glossed over. You now have a piece of legislation that requires you to prove that consent was given in a two party verbal setting. Good luck. Once there's a complaint won't the implication be that it doesn't exist? How will you counter that? Pocket recorder?

    When two people have sex and nobody expressed consent out loud prior to the act, who's the rapist? Both parties?

    Didn't some university in California in the 90s enact on-campus rules similar to this? Verbal consent was required for physical contact on up through sex, in stages. How did that work out in the end, I wonder. It certainly didn't become the norm. I wonder why.
    Post edited by muppet on
  • GoPro cameras.
  • Two people both recording themselves on their phones saying "I agree to have sex with this person!" is all you need.
  • Someone should make a consent app that covers that. It would destigmatize the process of getting clear verbal consent.
  • Two people both recording themselves on their phones saying "I agree to have sex with this person!" is all you need.

    You have to use your parents voicemail to have the other person voice their consent :-p
  • Two people both recording themselves on their phones saying "I agree to have sex with this person!" is all you need.

    In the neo-Puritanical environment of the United States, I see horrible abuse potential in this, but yeah I guess.
  • Two people both recording themselves on their phones saying "I agree to have sex with this person!" is all you need.

    And what if the other person says you forced them to make that recording, and they didn't actually consent? What if you make such a recording willingly, but under the influence of mind-altering substances?

    On paper, this actually opens a lot of doors. If some people who did not mean well wanted to, they could do a lot of harm. They could go around having consensual sex with people. Then after they fact they could lie about it and use the law to extract money or exact vengeance upon those sexual partners. That's scary if you imagine it actually happening.

    But in reality, this is not a concern. Today in the real world there are billions of people living in places where rape is illegal having consensual sex. How many incidents have there been where one partner has lied after the fact? How often does this happen? It happens pretty close to never. You know what happens all the goddamn time? People having non-consensual sex and saying nothing about it at all.

    Practicality and reality matter a lot more than principle. If there's a sudden rash of people misusing this law, then it will be changed. Until such a time, if it ever comes to pass (it won't), this should pretty much be the law everywhere on earth.
  • Well a hidden microphone will work but I don't know if California is a state that demands all parties being recorded give consent to be recorded so of course such exonerating evidence could be inadmissible, or even incriminating, in court.
  • I'm not sure I agree that false rape accusations are statistically insignificant. I also think it's a very difficult thing to quantify.

    In spirit I agree with you, but I think there's a very high potential for abuse and even if it's rarely abused I don't think that's OK. I have no better solution, though. It's a sucky problem.
  • How is this more abusable than the previous regime?
  • edited September 2014
    "Regime".

    Srsly. That's pretty much a conversation endpoint.

    I don't think it makes the situation any better, or only marginally better, and opens up a new avenue for abuse. I understand the problem, and I understand this attempt to solve the problem. I just don't think it's a practical solution. I have no better, alternative solution to offer.

    It will be interesting to see the on-the-ground effects of this law over the next couple of years.
    Post edited by muppet on
  • I guess it falls to a utilitarian argument, Muppet. If it helps 90% of the people in situations like this, but hurts 10% is it not worth it?
  • Think of a realistic situation where someone is trying to lie about sex not being consensual. Think about how hard it is to make that lie actually amount to anything. Just as hard as it is to make a truthful accusation! Very very difficult! It's extremely unlikely that anyone ever will suffer from false accusations under this law.
  • edited September 2014
    Considering the amount of people that get away with rape....

    Honestly, it is going to have to come down to a culture change. There is just so much out there that makes this stuff extremely hazy to people from media people consume to the "common" wisdom. Rape culture is really all over the place in media and culture. I mean I didn't realize what was wrong with the first revenge of the Nerds movie till recently :-p
    Post edited by Cremlian on
  • edited September 2014
    I think presuming that it will help 90% of people in a questionable consent situation is optimistic, but I honestly hope you're right. The scope of the law (state funded campuses) is narrow and I think it's an iffy solution, but I'm prepared to admit that it worked well if it does.

    Like Cremlian said, an awful lot of this is culture. And the growing pains of the impending change are massive and nasty.

    And you're probably right Scott, it's probably really hard to make a "successful" false rape accusation. I just wonder if this doesn't put another arrow in that quiver. And I concede that it would almost certainly be a very rare issue, but being that guy would fucking suck.

    I guess utilitarian is probably the best way to look at it. Help the largest population of people in need of help.
    Post edited by muppet on
  • It bothers me that most of the conversation on here is about possible false accusations vs. this bill hopefully making predators and uniformed people aware that consent is a thing and should be given.
  • I think it's a given that consent and awareness that consent is necessary are good things. This bill doesn't really bring anything new to the discussion in either aspect.
  • I think my only big issue with that site is that the proposed phrase in the banner is "Is this OK with you?" which I think is terribly ambiguous. They may not mean it literally but still it's a really poor example of obtaining consent.
  • But isn't a state law something new vs. College code's of conduct?
  • edited September 2014
    When you have the power of the government behind accusations, and the penalties for being labeled a sex offender are so strong, I'm a bit wary about laws that depend only on anecdotal evidence.
    Post edited by Andrew on
  • Sure but I think the net effect on awareness is likely zero for a variety of reasons. Jerks who don't get it will see this as a sexist attack on men and obstinately not get it even more. Guys who do get it will have anxiety about it. I dunno, I think this is ham fisted and likely to backfire on a sociological level. Antioch certainly did.

    Granted it's been 20 years.
  • Cremlian said:

    I guess it falls to a utilitarian argument, Muppet. If it helps 90% of the people in situations like this, but hurts 10% is it not worth it?

    "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"
  • edited September 2014
    Apreche said:


    Practicality and reality matter a lot more than principle. If there's a sudden rash of people misusing this law, then it will be changed. Until such a time, if it ever comes to pass (it won't), this should pretty much be the law everywhere on earth.

    Theoretically, I agree. However it's nearly impossible to get such a law changed after it's been enacted. Look at minimum drug sentencing laws, or underage sex offender laws where a 16 year old guy gets labeled a sex offender for life by getting a BJ from his 15 year old girlfriend in high school. A lot of people's lives get ruined by well meaning laws. While it shouldn't prevent us from trying to fix the issue through legal means, it's tone deaf to state that these laws never reasonably do harm to the innocent.

    It's also naive to say that laws will definitely get fixed if they are shown to be doing active harm to society. Histroy has shown time again that it's very difficult and not likely to actually happen without significant backlash.
    Post edited by Andrew on
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