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Disney

zeo1fanzeo1fan
edited July 2013 in Movies
So I just finished the film 'Enchanted' and found its writing really interesting. I love the way it addressed the real-life criticisms Disney Fairy Tales consistently receive, as well as touching on areas of love and romance that are commonly glossed over like Sex, Divorce, and Complications (incidentally, there were even a couple of gay jokes thrown in, which surprised me). I loved that its character arcs are about finding a balance between pragmatism and idealism (which I'm sucker, for). I'd love to hear your thoughts on Disney's ideological leanings and whatever else you have to say about it.
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Comments

  • muppetmuppet
    Disney's ideological leanings are for sale.

    Despite knowing this, I'm still a complete sucker for their product, which is escapism. I freaking love the resort in Orlando and every time the interval since my last visit grows past a year or two I start jonesing pretty bad.
  • Li_AkahiLi_Akahi
    Disney's ideological leanings are for sale.
    Citation needed.

    Also, hi guys! How are you? Haven't been on in a while, but Ro summoned me back with talk of a Disney thread.
  • Totally GuyTotally Guy
    I was skeptical about going to Disneyland in California with my Dad and his partner as an adult. But it was actually amazing. I was very impressed with the overall quality of the experience.

    I watched most of their traditional movies as a kid but I watched the Princess and the Frog as an adult to see how I would parse it with a less whimsical outlook. I thought it was great!
  • GregGreg
    Disney's ideological leanings are for sale.
    Citation needed.
    During the war, they pumped all their resoures into propaganda with militarist themes and awfully racist vitriol because it's what kept them afloat (its also where we learned that corn, taxes, and pogo sticks will all kick Hitler's ass). Immediately after the war, we had Your Friend The Atom, which has that whole bit at the end about how war is bad and we must never ue atomic weaponry. We've also watched them progress from the racist depictions of the Japanese to the diversification of the princesses with Mulan and Tiana, because that was the big thing. Now, they've stopped making Princess movies (well, Disney Animation Studios has announced that that's what they're doing, anyway) because of the increasing amounts of criticism said movies were drawing from the feminist movement.

    /just rewatched On The Front Lines in prep for my panel
  • Li_AkahiLi_Akahi
    edited July 2013
    Disney's ideological leanings are for sale.
    Citation needed.
    During the war, they pumped all their resoures into propaganda with militarist themes and awfully racist vitriol because it's what kept them afloat (its also where we learned that corn, taxes, and pogo sticks will all kick Hitler's ass). Immediately after the war, we had Your Friend The Atom, which has that whole bit at the end about how war is bad and we must never ue atomic weaponry.
    I don't deny the propoganda, but as you said, it was done purely to keep the studio afloat during that time (remember, Disney's only majorly profitable movie at that time was Snow White in 1937, Pinocchio and Fantasia were both major financial failures and cost absurd amounts of money in those days, and their next genuine success would be Cinderella in 1950). Walt Disney always had a fascination with technology and progress, so Disney doing educational work on upcoming and recent technology never was surprising in the slightest.
    We've also watched them progress from the racist depictions of the Japanese to the diversification of the princesses with Mulan and Tiana, because that was the big thing. Now, they've stopped making Princess movies (well, Disney Animation Studios has announced that that's what they're doing, anyway) because of the increasing amounts of criticism said movies were drawing from the feminist movement.

    /just rewatched On The Front Lines in prep for my panel
    This is where I'm having problems with your statement. Diversification was the big thing? Especially when it comes to animation, diversification has never really been "popular" which is why you'll see mostly any POC as a side character if at all. Think about it, how many American animated movies can you think of that have main characters that are POC that aren't just comic relief.

    Also, Disney is still doing princess movies. Frozen has princess Anna, who will be #12 in the Disney Princess line.
    Post edited by Li_Akahi on
  • GregGreg
    edited July 2013
    I don't deny the propoganda, but as you said, it was done purely to keep the studio afloat during that time (remember, Disney's only majorly profitable movie at that time was Snow White in 1937, Pinocchio and Fantasia were both major financial failures and cost absurd amounts of money in those days, and their next genuine success would be Cinderella in 1950). Walt Disney always had a fascination with technology and progress, so Disney doing educational work on upcoming and recent technology never was surprising in the slightest.
    My point wasn't that any of this was a surprise -- or even that they shouldn't have done it -- simply that it was contradictory in ideology, illustrating that it's for sale. Of course Walt would show case atomic energy, but I'm specifically addressing the last bit where he talks about the third wish the genie grants and how we must not use it. That's the bit that's off in contrast to approximately everything they made from 1941-1945.
    This is where I'm having problems with your statement. Diversification was the big thing? Especially when it comes to animation, diversification has never really been "popular" which is why you'll see mostly any POC as a side character if at all. Think about it, how many American animated movies can you think of that have main characters that are POC that aren't just comic relief.
    I'm having trouble thinking of American animated movies from that time with main characters that are human (the only non-Disney one I can think of is Anastasia), regardless of race. I was thinking about the phenomenon on television of intensified tokenism. Magic School Bus, Captain Planet's Planeteers, Power Rangers, etc.
    Also, Disney is still doing princess movies. Frozen has princess Anna, who will be #12 in the Disney Princess line.
    That was why I had that extended disclaimer in parentheses. IIRC, Frozen is made by Disney Digital (the 3D animation department), and so Disney Animation Studio's announcement to not make princess movies still stands.
    Post edited by Greg on
  • Li_AkahiLi_Akahi
    edited July 2013
    That was why I had that extended disclaimer in parentheses. IIRC, Frozen is made by Disney Digital (the 3D animation department), and so Disney Animation Studio's announcement to not make princess movies still stands.
    Once again, going to need a citation there. It's #53 in the Walt Disney Animation Studios canon, but even if the CG department of the Animatiob Studios is making it, it's still being made by the Walt Disney Animation Studios.
    Post edited by Li_Akahi on
  • GregGreg
    My source is JTVH. Do with that what you will.
  • ColdguyColdguy
    My source is JTVH. Do with that what you will.
    The same one who told you about #INGing right? #AnimeBostonReference

  • muppetmuppet
    By for sale, I mean that they do what pays.
  • jtvhjtvh
    My source is JTVH. Do with that what you will.
    (Okay yeah, it was probably inevitable that I end up posting in this thread . . .)

    It's kinda hard to say whether Disney said they'd stop doing princess movies. I thought they had . . . but then recently I re-read the LA Times story Disney Animation is closing the book on fairy tales, which includes the phrase:
    "the curtain is falling on "princess movies"
    The Disney fan internet exploded for weeks about this. Longer, maybe. But then there's this other thing, from the same article:
    "They may come back later because someone has a fresh take on it … but we don't have any other musicals or fairy tales lined up."
    That article's from 2010. It's hard to imagine that Frozen wasn't somewhere in the pipeline at that time, given that I believe it's scheduled to be released this fall.

    Now, don't get me wrong. I am a huge Disney parks fan, and enjoy a lot of the movies. But I believe their desire for profit is the biggest factor in how their products have changed over time. As I wrote in my Jentasmic column at StudiosCentral a few weeks back on the topic of Merida's makeover, they're much more comfortable following the times than leading them.

    I could also go on a bit about how and why they started letting same-sex couples use their Fairy Tale Wedding services . . . but I shall restrain myself for now.
  • OmnutiaOmnutia
    Disney is making another bland crowd pleaser. Is anyone really surprised?
  • Li_AkahiLi_Akahi
    edited July 2013
    Actually, the citation needed wasn't adressed at Disney's plans to stop (potentially) making Princess movies, it was more at the claim that Greg made about it being made by Disney Digital and not WDAS, because it is being made by WDAS, hence the fact that it's number 53.
    Disney is making another bland crowd pleaser. Is anyone really surprised?
    How were Tangled and Wreck-it Ralph bland exactly?

    Just as a note, only reason I didn't put Winnie the Pooh in there was because that movie was comfort food. Delicious and wonderful comfort food narrated by John Cleese, but comfort food nonetheless.

    Post edited by Li_Akahi on
  • jtvhjtvh
    Actually, the citation needed wasn't adressed at Disney's plans to stop (potentially) making Princess movies, it was more at the claim that Greg made about it being made by Disney Digital and not WDAS, because it is being made by WDAS, hence the fact that it's number 53.
    Ah, good point. And actually I think that while I'm sure I said that the "no princess movies" pledge was said with reference to WDAS, it's also the case that one of the people quoted in that LA Times article was Ed Catmull, so one could easily infer that the pledge applied to Pixar as well (in which case they broke it even faster, with Brave).

  • Luke BurrageLuke Burrage
    If Wreck-It Ralph and Tangled are bland crowd pleasers, sign me up for their next movie of the same quality! Bland suits me just fine.
  • RochelleRochelle
    This is currently my only gripe at the moment with Frozen and over 90% of Disney 'heroines' being of the Caucasian persuasion.

    TUMBLR ARTISTS IMAGINE FROZEN‘S LEAD AS SOMETHING OTHER THAN ANOTHER WHITE DISNEY PRINCESS
  • Luke BurrageLuke Burrage
    There's some really bad art in there, and only the eskimo idea resonates. Except, overall, portraying eskimos in a Disney animation would probably do less for good eskimo relations than avoiding the topic completely.

    Says someone who knows eskimo probably isn't the word I'm looking for.
  • NuriNuri
    This is currently my only gripe at the moment with Frozen and over 90% of Disney 'heroines' being of the Caucasian persuasion.

    TUMBLR ARTISTS IMAGINE FROZEN‘S LEAD AS SOMETHING OTHER THAN ANOTHER WHITE DISNEY PRINCESS
    "After all, while Frozen is set in Scandinavia, it’s not like there are only white people there."

    I LOL'd.

    Of all of the Disney tales to have the white chick heroine, this particular folk tale is probably the one with the strongest argument FOR it. It started as a Northern European tale. Sami characters would have been cool, but I bet then Disney would be getting flak for racist stereotyping.

  • GregGreg
    Says someone who knows eskimo probably isn't the word I'm looking for.
    The proper term is Inuit, but I have yet to meet someone who isn't white that actually takes offense to the term "Eskimo" (just remember to capitalize the "e").

    But regarding Nuri's remarks, the same could be said of nearly all the princess movies. Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, The Little Mermaid -- they're all Germanic folk tales. I don't see why The Frog Prince should be given a black cast but The Snow Queen should stay white.
  • RochelleRochelle
    Well that's a my bad. Didn't really know much about the movie. Now I do.
  • RuffasRuffas
    Says someone who knows eskimo probably isn't the word I'm looking for.
    The proper term is Inuit, but I have yet to meet someone who isn't white that actually takes offense to the term "Eskimo" (just remember to capitalize the "e").
    Inuit is the proper term for one of three groups of Eskimos. Inuits are Eskimos, but not necessarily the other way round.
  • zeo1fanzeo1fan
    Disney's high number of white protagonists doesn't mean much to me. For example, I'd much rather watch Belle over Mulan. The fact that Mulan is an Asian badass doesn't mean a whole lot to me; I don't find her personality interesting. Characterization takes precedence to me. For example, in 'Sleeping Beauty', I don't dislike Aurora/Briar Rose for sleeping half the movie. I dislike her because she's boring. I should be upset when she's cursed to eternal sleep, but at that point the movie hasn't squeezed enough characterization out of her to make me care.
  • zeo1fanzeo1fan
    Also, the protagonist of 'The Snow Queen' has always been white; why is anyone surprised that she's white in Disney's adaptation?
  • GregGreg
    I think her sleeping for half the movie and her being boring might be correlated.
    Inuit is the proper term for one of three groups of Eskimos. Inuits are Eskimos, but not necessarily the other way round.
    TIL that Siberians count as Inuit. I did know about the Yupit, but they slipped my mind because I generally don't associate them with Eskimos for no particular reason.
  • NuriNuri
    Says someone who knows eskimo probably isn't the word I'm looking for.
    The proper term is Inuit, but I have yet to meet someone who isn't white that actually takes offense to the term "Eskimo" (just remember to capitalize the "e").

    But regarding Nuri's remarks, the same could be said of nearly all the princess movies. Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, The Little Mermaid -- they're all Germanic folk tales. I don't see why The Frog Prince should be given a black cast but The Snow Queen should stay white.
    The Frog Prince story is one that can be set anywhere, including areas that have a high black population, so it was workable. People still complained about the Frog Prince movie being racist. The Snow Queen HAS to be set somewhere cold and icy. Their choices were pretty much white or Sami if they were going Scandinavian.

    While we're at it, Aladdin was a middle eastern tale, and it was cast as such, and people constantly complain about how it is full of Arab stereotypes. I am 100% sure Disney can't win, whether they use white heroines or not.

    Side notes... I thought the little mermaid wasn't a folk tale, but an Anderson story. I don't know of it existing prior to his writing. (Obviously, I could be wrong.) I was also under the impression that the Snow Queen was a Scandinavian folk tale, not Germanic. But honestly, it doesn't really matter.

  • OmnutiaOmnutia
    Disney is making another bland crowd pleaser. Is anyone really surprised?
    How were Tangled and Wreck-it Ralph bland exactly?

    Just as a note, only reason I didn't put Winnie the Pooh in there was because that movie was comfort food. Delicious and wonderful comfort food narrated by John Cleese, but comfort food nonetheless.
    I don't get why people can't apply the "It's trashy but I like it." label to Disney.
  • Li_AkahiLi_Akahi
    For example, in 'Sleeping Beauty', I don't dislike Aurora/Briar Rose for sleeping half the movie. I dislike her because she's boring. I should be upset when she's cursed to eternal sleep, but at that point the movie hasn't squeezed enough characterization out of her to make me care.
    Well there's your problem right there. Sleeping Beauty is all about the faeries and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.
    Disney is making another bland crowd pleaser. Is anyone really surprised?
    How were Tangled and Wreck-it Ralph bland exactly?

    Just as a note, only reason I didn't put Winnie the Pooh in there was because that movie was comfort food. Delicious and wonderful comfort food narrated by John Cleese, but comfort food nonetheless.
    I don't get why people can't apply the "It's trashy but I like it." label to Disney.
    I'm just trying to understand what you mean. All of the movies that I listed are widely considered to not only be great animated movies, but good movies in general.

  • OmnutiaOmnutia
    Geez, Tangled got a 90% on Rotten Tomatos? Maybe it's an american thing.
  • zeo1fanzeo1fan
    For example, in 'Sleeping Beauty', I don't dislike Aurora/Briar Rose for sleeping half the movie. I dislike her because she's boring. I should be upset when she's cursed to eternal sleep, but at that point the movie hasn't squeezed enough characterization out of her to make me care.
    Well there's your problem right there. Sleeping Beauty is all about the faeries and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.
    Disney is making another bland crowd pleaser. Is anyone really surprised?
    How were Tangled and Wreck-it Ralph bland exactly?

    Just as a note, only reason I didn't put Winnie the Pooh in there was because that movie was comfort food. Delicious and wonderful comfort food narrated by John Cleese, but comfort food nonetheless.
    I don't get why people can't apply the "It's trashy but I like it." label to Disney.
    I'm just trying to understand what you mean. All of the movies that I listed are widely considered to not only be great animated movies, but good movies in general.

    I know the Fairies are the main characters, but the movie is named after Aurora. Just because she's a damsel doesn't mean she can't be interesting. Just look at Jane from Tarzan.
  • Luke BurrageLuke Burrage


    While we're at it, Aladdin was a middle eastern tale, and it was cast as such, and people constantly complain about how it is full of Arab stereotypes. I am 100% sure Disney can't win, whether they use white heroines or not.
    That was my point! Disney can either portray white princesses, and be accused of racism, or portray non-white or non-western European non-American people, and actually be racist. Racist both ways.
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