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Teachers managing the Bullies and Bullied

edited November 2009 in Everything Else
There's always a kid or two that is just picked on. Sometimes it is by a few kids, and sometimes it is by a large number of kids. Once marked, this kid is teased for anything, from the way he/she walks down the hallway, to wanting to save a caterpillar on the sidewalk. Teachers often turn a blind eye. Other teachers take the victim and start questioning them, making them feel worse. Often, the bullies are not dealt with-- because it is too hard to deal with that kind of thing, particularly with all the red tape, parents, and the fatigue the teacher is already under. I brought this up in one of my Elementary Ed classes, and asked what can be done to help these victims. The discussion and answers I got were disappointing.

My professor said, "Often, these troubled kids have something about them that bothers their peers, and so their peers lash out at them in excess."

That really bothered me. This implies that the bullies are behaving acceptably--because it is normal to victimize others. It also implies that the victim is bringing it upon his/herself. It also seems to absolve the teacher of any responsibility. Sometimes, it may be the case that the teased kid is a little annoying or awkward-- but is that really an excuse for allowing him/her to be tortured on a daily basis? Doesn't that kind of treatment just engender further awkwardness and emotional trauma in the kid?

Furthermore, it's not always because the kid is annoying or awkward. Sometimes it is just because other kids just want a punching bag that doesn't fight back and/or cries easily. Gradually, that kid will become awkward and damaged.

The answer I got when I mentioned that kind of victim was: " That is because they never learned to stand up for themselves." So it is still the poor kid's fault. That's not fair. A child that is victimized like that cannot just summon courage. What courage there might have been has been beaten down so far already. Doing nothing will not help. Interrogating the child as if they're the next Columbine will not engender the development of courage either. Punishing a large portion of the class will not help: It will anger a bunch of parents in denial, and the punished kids may attack the victim worse than ever for 'getting them in trouble.' It's also hard to build courage in a person.

I think that nobody knows what will really help, and nobody wants to be held accountable either. I want to help, though.

What do you think? Have you ever experienced or seen a teacher handle a bad case of bullying in an effective manner? If so, what did they do?
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Comments

  • I believe this essay is very relevant.
    Why Nerds are Unpopular
  • I was bullied in my sixth grade P.E. class, I constantly told teachers and the school's administration about the acts against me and they would always talk to the boys and would sometimes give them detention. This did absolutely nothing. They seemed to have some sort of vendetta against me and it took me using my then recently found partial blindness in order to get me out of the class for the year and into more quarters of art.
  • I was extensively bullied until more recent years, and teachers have usually been very little help. The best thing a teacher can do is simply find a way to remove the student who's being bullied from the situation. Bullies won't stop, no matter what you do. Only expelling them could make them stop, and that's not going to happen.
  • I don't think that it is in any way the bullied kid's fault that they are bullied. However, the sad reality is that the most practical and effective solutions to the bullying are in their hands, and there isn't much anyone can do to help them.

    Catching bullies is almost impossible. It's a crime that leaves almost no evidence behind. A teacher has to be uber-vigilant to be able to see any of it. Nobody has the time and energy for that. Putting energy into it will simply detract from education, which is the primary goal.

    Children who report bullying to teachers are lying a good percentage of the time. Lying about being bullied by a kid is a way to bully them, especially since they will probably care about the detention. As a teacher, you have almost no evidence, and only your gut to tell you what is true. The bullies are smart and will never do anything under your watchful eye. They are also amazing actors, and you will never really know the truth. How can you fix anything, if you don't even know what to fix?

    Even if you catch a bully, what will you do? Punishing the bullies is incredibly difficult, and generally ineffective. The only thing that teachers and administrators can really do is detention, suspension, expulsion. Those aren't going to be any sort of deterrent. What else can you do? You can't hit them anymore, and it wouldn't even work as there is plenty of bullying in private Catholic schools where children are still hit with rules and such. You could try to be creative and lead the class in picking on the bully, but that also is obviously bad. You could ask the bully's parents for help, but most likely they will work against you.

    As I said at the beginning. If you are a kid who is bullied, it's not your fault. It just happens that something about who you are has drawn some ire. However, sadly, the only actual working solutions to the problem lie in your hands. You are the only one who can fix it. What are the solutions, you ask? I will tell you one that has been personally effective.

    I'm sure that most geeks/nerds were bullied at one point or another. At one point in high school, in one of my classes some kids I did not know had decided to call me Mr. Bean. I didn't even know who Mr. Bean was, though I do have a pretty strong resemblance to him. It didn't bother me that much, but it was a little annoying to have these stupid kids yelling Mr. Bean at me from across the room. I'd basically just make a grumbly face and not say anything.

    The teacher in that class wasn't a particularly great teacher. I think she was the cheerleading coach. She wasn't a genius like a great college professor or anything like that. Just an average person, coming to work, getting the job done, teaching some literature. But she said to me that I should take them calling me Mr. Bean as a compliment. Rowan Atkinson is a very talented performer, so it's good to be compared to him.

    I didn't really take her advice directly, but I did change my attitude. I was walking down the hallway one day, and one of the kids points and me and yells "Mr. Bean!" What did I do? I smiled, I said "what's up man?" and high fived him. Instantly I had transformed an insult into a nickname and term of endearment. Instantly a tormenter had been transformed into a buddy. I never became close friends with those kids, only seeing them in that one class and the hallways on occasion. But we had a good time watching the Predator together on the last day of school.

    If a kid is bullied, it isn't their fault. They are just being who they are, and that is what they should do. Yet, however said it may be, the only functioning and practical solutions to eliminate bullying lie in the hands of the bullied. As a teacher the best thing you can do is help them help themselves. Bullies will continue to bully kids who react to it. The only way to get them to stop is to change your reaction. If you spaz out, of course they are going to bully you some more. They want to see more spazzing. If you honestly embrace the bullying, you'll see bullying quickly transformed into good-natured ribbing between friends.

    There is actually one thing I think could be done to reduce bullying greatly across the board. However, it is a system-wide solution that I don't see happening anytime soon. It is also something we have spoken about often as a major part of the problem of our education system as a whole. That is to stratify education based on performance instead of age. Separate the kids who get As from the kids who get Fs.

    Most, but not all, bullying is across these boundaries. It's kids with bad grades picking on kids with good grades. By reducing interaction between these groups, you can prevent a lot of that bullying from even starting. Likewise, you can improve the education of both groups by giving them the specific help they need instead of teaching to the lowest common denominator.
  • I was bullied in primary school and, having a short fuse, I often lashed out at the bullies. One of the bullies' mother was a friend of my parents so I got to know she didn't get any word of her son's behavior. In contrast, I was in detention more often than I care to remember and the school councelors sent me to parental counseling, the school psychiatrist and a therapist. Each one told me they thought I was normal and wondered why the counselors thought I needed any therapy in the first place.
  • stratify education based on performance instead of age. Separate the kids who get As from the kids who get Fs...
    Most... bullying is across these boundaries. It's kids with bad grades picking on kids with good grades.
    Every problem I ever had in the entirety of my public schooling would have been solved by this. Once I reached high school, where just such stratification was in place, I never again had any school-related problems.
  • When I wish I kept my Public Speaking paper on how High School Drama is Bullshit, because this thread makes me think that.
    stratify education based on performance instead of age. Separate the kids who get As from the kids who get Fs...
    Most... bullying is across these boundaries. It's kids with bad grades picking on kids with good grades.
    Every problem I ever had in the entirety of my public schooling would have been solved by this. Once I reached high school, where just such stratification was in place, I never again had any school-related problems.
    It just really depends on your situation to see how much you will get bullied and it's severity. I was on that border between good and bad and weird and smart so I received a fair amount of bullying. I think you'll get bullied either way, but how it's done depends on who you deal with. Smart kids will probably insult you or lead you on, but that's something you can easily work against. You can convince yourself to say "Fuck those guys" and figure out how to repel them away. Dumber people, well...I remember one time telling a bad joke in class and a guy, who was dumber than me and a full-foot taller, bashed me in the head with a science textbook. For a joke that wasn't even at his expense. I remembered dreading that class because most of the rejects were placed in it.

    It depends on age too. I think you'll see much more lying when you deal with grade schoolers, just because they don't want to get punished. And they usually don't mean to cause severe harm. Teenagers are much fucking worse when it comes to this stuff and they do compromise what kind of stuff they are doing to people. It just rarely takes them time to understand how the consequences affect everyone and sometimes it's too late.

    I think that if the school ever wants to fix bullying in a slow, but sure-fire manner. You need to hire someone to work as a mediator, sit the two kids down, and get them to talk. If anything, you'll get the two to admit more about one another and get them to understand each other. That's the key to compromise, is if you look at both people's side of the story. If anything, you'll understand the students better as a superior and you'll learn how to handle them.

    Sadly we will probably never live in a world where that happens because schools ALWAYS NEED MONEY AND ARE ALWAYS SO POOR.

    It really has too many variables to truly narrow bullies down. You can punish them, no question, but it just comes down to if they will really learn from it. You have to consider the victim's situation, the bully's situation, their grades, their parents, the teacher looking over them, their friends...so much stuff. You'd have to have the time and patience of a saint to sift through all the bullshit. I think it's noble and should be done but...damn, you will never really learn if you did good or not. Or if it was worth it.
  • Also, That probably doesn't help you in Gym class. Lifting more then a majority of other people in the class did however did help :-p (I stopped being messed after weight lifting ^_^)
  • There is a lot of red tape in dealing with these situations, and almost any course of action can backfire terribly. I have thought about a lot of the same courses of action Scott went over, and come up with the same failed results as outcomes. I also know that I'll be tired just trying to teach the entire school art--I won't even be a home-room teacher. I'm going to have trouble just remembering all 600 kids' names-- much less make a strong personal connection with all of them. I'm sure there will be a handful of kids that I connect with...but no more than that. Nonetheless, I'd still like to be attentive, and at least a little helpful.

    I do like what was said about just saying something supportive to the bullied kid that can change their outlook into an empowered one. I'll look to do that.

    To achieve stratification would mean a complete 180 on school policy. This is thanks to No Child Left Behind, and IDEA 2004. Everybody seems to hate it except the government, so I don't see your stratification vision coming to fruition anytime soon.

    NCLB and IDEA's concept of differentiation is to put all the kids together as often as possible, but make sure the teacher has appropriately planned flexible lessons and alternate materials to cater to the gifted, struggling, and special ed kids. This is based on the concept of equality, normalcy, and establishing the least restrictive environment for struggling students. That's nice and all, but it has some serious drawbacks. It puts an enormous strain on a teacher that now must be expert in teaching many kinds of kids in many different ways. Even if sufficiently trained and motivated, the teacher will get approximately 1 hour of sleep a night, trying to create lesson plans and materials that can cater to all these different needs. And, as you have all said, despite the system's intention, that mix of kids will not perceive themselves as equals; rather, they will recognize their differences and socially group themselves accordingly. That includes bullying.

    I want to differentiate, still. Differentiation is important even if all the kids are similarly intelligent because all kids have different learning styles. However, I do feel that a balance between inclusion classes and stratified classes should be further developed instead. Some subjects should have multiple teachers, each specializing in a certain group level.

    I don't know entirely how I feel about mixing ages a lot. Many of the kids I know that skipped a bunch grades grew up to be really, really awkward because they never learned how to socialize with kids their age. I see the point in your idea, but I still think there should be a limit to the age-range. Perhaps a range of 3 years, instead of one year. That would allow for class arrangements by ability, but still ensure that kids get to socialize relative to their social maturity.
  • @Scott
    My school has student mediators that had to be trained in negotiating skills. I was one of them and it was pretty cool. If two students wanted mediation or if the counselor made them get it, one of us were called in to do it. We also got to skip class for mediation.
  • edited November 2009
    I was the textbook example of a bullied kid. I was extremely shy in Kindergarten, which made me weird to the others, but teasing didn't start until first grade when a bunch of kids tried to force a boy to kiss me on the bus, and they discovered how easily they could get me to cry. My grade school life was pure torture after that. I was ganged up on, made a spectacle of, I had cruel songs sung about me, people took my things and hid them from me, pointed out and laughed at every single thing I did, from drinking from the water fountain to walking across the classroom, all with the goal of getting me to cry and laughing at that. And naturally, I was treated like a plague by most other kids ("Ew, you're friends with Judith?").

    The assistant principle not only did little to stop them from teasing me, but joined in often enough. My name is pronounced "Fish", and he thought he was very funny for making jokes of that nature in front of the other students. And imagine how eagerly they took that bait. My teachers varied in their methods. Very few of them seemed to genuinely want to stop the others from bullying me. One of them (though admittedly, this one was a horrible teacher) would even laugh when one of the kids said something particularly "funny" about me. Other students were very rarely punished, and lying to the principal if brought to her office ("I didn't do that to her!") would be enough to get them off the hook. All other methods aside, that kind of bullshit is NOT the way to handle a bullied kid.

    The bus was a particularly horrible place. There were times when on a daily basis the entire bus would circle around me and sing one of their songs, take my lunch box and spill what was inside, kick and smack the back of my seat, etc. What did they do to fix that? No one on the bus was punished but me. I was forced to sit in the front of the bus with the special ed kids so that the driver could watch me.

    My confidence suffered, my grades suffered, my quality of life suffered. My mom fought to have me put into the program for advanced students, and I passed the test every time, but my suffering grades and some factors I never found out kept me from ever being accepted. My mom pleaded with them and asked them why I wasn't allowed in, and they said to her: "Judith is just one of those students who's going to have to slip through the cracks". When I graduated from elementary I swore I would never set foot in that horrible building again, and I never did.

    The teasing died off in middle school and had a resurgence in high school, this time mostly by girls who would tease me with sexual remarks and false rumors. Again, a lot of it happened on the bus. Again, they were able to get away with it by lying to the principal. When I finally moved away from my old district and into a new school, I was at last treated like a human being by all of my peers. My last year in high school is what I wish all my years of school could have been.

    My younger siblings, though teased to a lesser extent than I was, were taken aside and interrogated when school authorities realized they were being picked on. The guidance counselor attempted to blame MY MOTHER for the way that things were and began accusing her of poor parenting because my brother and sister were "different". Needless to say this was not the case, but my mother received rather subtle threats of having child services called on her by that idiot guidance counselor (who admitted to not having any children of her own.)

    Many people who know me wonder why I have so many confidence issues. Why I'm afraid to do things in front of others that most people are completely comfortable with. They'll wonder why I can seem misanthropic at times, or why I can be terrified of being embarrassed in front of friends. This all stems from what was done to me throughout my school years. I see schools take on this majestic and noble stance, as indicated by titles such as "No Child Left Behind". They care SO much about the welfare of these children that they will implement programs like that, or they will pry into the personal lives of a child's parents over trivial inconsistencies with how they're expected to conform - yet they silently embrace conditions that allow a child's life to be permanently damaged by the years spent in their school. I find that unacceptable.

    It's true that a solution to this kind of thing is very hard to come up with. I can hardly offer any suggestions. In retrospect, I really wish I had just punched one or all of them every single time it happened. If I was going to be victimized no matter what I did, then I wish I could have gone down fighting. One thing I do know though, is that it is NOT the bullied child's fault that such things are happening to them. I find your teacher's response disturbing, in that it echoes what people will say about rape victims or other victims of violence to justify the actions of the attacker ("She was asking for it"). Another thing I know is that the system we have now is not working. In the case of my family, it was either me "slipping through the cracks" or my mother being blamed and harassed for what some asshole kids were doing to her children. All the system does is alienate and further victimize the victims. It's unfair, it's wrong, and it doesn't at all show me that these schools genuinely care about the kids.

    At the very least, students who think that they can get away with torturing someone on the bus should be caught on camera and then KICKED OFF the bus for a time. If it was a group, then make an example of the ringleader. Let their parents be pissed at them for having to drive them to school every day.

    I'm not even going to be the best here at coming up with a solution. The thought of it makes me so angry that the first thing that comes to mind is just imagining all of those smug little brats getting wailed in the face with a sack of shit.
    Post edited by loltsundere on
  • edited November 2009
    @Scott
    My school has student mediators that had to be trained in negotiating skills. I was one of them and it was pretty cool. If two students wanted mediation or if the counselor made them get it, one of us were called in to do it. We also got to skip class for mediation.
    With my school, we didn't have a person who worked only as a mediator. Usually it was the principal or vice-principal who had to sit kids down and get them to talk. (Which happened due to personal experience) And while most people can do that, many principals or teachers at the school have too much on their plate, so they need someone who's just looking over the children.

    Perhaps it just depends on the school, but I came from a real run-down school in a small town and I'm not necessarily sure how many people shared a similar experience.
    Post edited by Nukerjsr on
  • edited November 2009
    Also, That probably doesn't help you in Gym class. Lifting more then a majority of other people in the class did however did help :-p (I stopped being messed after weight lifting ^_^)
    This is actually not a bad solution. Bullies will often latch onto a kid that spazzes out, but not if they're actually in any danger. It's the strong picking on the weak, and not the other way around. If a kid is being bullied, then they should seriously get into a martial art, strength training, or both. Nobody will mess with you no matter how weird you are, if they are afraid of you. It's also a great way for a bullied kid to boost their own confidence, which will result in a change in attitude and personality such that they won't be a target of bullying.

    A similar strategy can be simply to do something that is actually cool. If you learn the accordion and bring it to school, you are going to be a bully magnet. That accordion has a very small chance of making it home without being smashed. Even if you bring an electric guitar, it may be smashed. But if you have talent and fucking rock out on that guitar, kids will be amazed and ask you to play rather than try to bother you. If a jealous kid does bother you, others will defend because you are fucking awesome and not a dweeb. Actually being cool is a great way not to be bullied.

    And while violence is not something you want to encourage, it is a solution that will actually work if executed properly. If a bullied kid has a hilarious fit of rage to no effect, it's just going to encourage more bullying, and more fits of rage. But if a bullied kid actually sends someone to the hospital, without taking any damage themselves, the bullying will end immediately and forever. The consequences of suspension for hurting the other kid, and the moral negatives of using violence, may be outweighed by the positives of never having to deal with that BS again. A suspension in elementary or middle school is not going to have any long-term consequences. Just make sure that if you do send a bully to the hospital that they don't have a crazy lowlife family that will seek revenge.

    Also, moving or changing schools is a good strategy as well. Often times a kid will get a bad reputation that will stick with them in the same school. Even though the kid has now become cool and well adjusted, they are still picked on for their earlier reputation. A new school or town can be a fresh start.

    One thing to be careful of when moving is to do it in the summer. It is not easy for a kid to come into an pre-existing social structure. For example, if you show up at summer camp half-way through the summer, everyone is already buddied up. You're just an oddball out, even if you aren't picked on, it's hard to find a place to fit. If you show up at the beginning of summer camp, you can meet up and get into the swing of things at the point of formation.

    Home schooling is not a good answer, because it will be even harder for the kid to develop their lacking social skills, which are the reason they were bullied in the first place.
    I don't know entirely how I feel about mixing ages a lot. Many of the kids I know that skipped a bunch grades grew up to be really, really awkward because they never learned how to socialize with kids their age.
    That's because when kids skip grades, it's a Chiyo-Chan situation. One 8-year old stuck with a room full of 10-year olds. If the whole school were stratified, there would be rooms with even mixes of 8,9,10 year olds, etc. And obviously, there still has to be some amount of age stratification as well. Even flag kid, who is super smart, really shouldn't be in a class with any number of high school kids.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • edited November 2009
    @ Sonic -- That's a neat idea.

    @ Judith--
    Your story is so awful. I had the experiences of you, your siblings, and other friends in mind when I initially posed this question, to be honest.

    I kinda like your idea about the bus, but it may have some problems. I mean, when a kid gets detention, the kid can't ride the bus-- and the real reason the parents get mad at the kid is because taking them to school is inconvenient. This is essentially the same punishment, but without the detention. I could be wrong, but from my understanding it wouldn't be acceptable to deny bus for a long time because the bus is a public service all kids are entitled to--and taking away a public service could incite a lawsuit. Our buses had cameras, and I heard that one awful kid got banned from the bus. However, I went to private school, so it wasn't some government-funded public service. The other problem is that it may not work anyway. There's always a risk of backlash on the victim when the bully comes back.

    Edit:
    @ Scott R and ScottJ1
    I was never bullied that much, but I do remember that I garnered new respect when my gas permeable contact slipped up on top of my eyeball, and I dragged it back down. In that instant, I was tougher than all the jocks combined. What little teasing I had been subject to ended.
    Post edited by Nillia on
  • I could be wrong, but from my understanding it wouldn't be acceptable to deny bus for a long time because the bus is a public service all kids are entitled to
    My district in Michigan banned kids from the bus all the time.
  • I could be wrong, but from my understanding it wouldn't be acceptable to deny bus for a long time because the bus is a public service all kids are entitled to
    My district in Michigan banned kids from the bus all the time.
    That's awesome.
  • I think a lot of problems on buses could be solved by not having incredibly low wage blue-collar people drive the bus. Have the teachers and administrators drive the buses. Counselors drive the buses to summer camp, so why not teachers driving the buses to school?

    Then again, when i was in elementary school, my bus driver was Ralph. He was the greatest school bus driver to ever live, as far as I am concerned. He was almost exactly the same as Chef from South Park. After elementary school, the other bus drivers were just doing the job, and didn't care. If more bus drivers were like Ralph, I wouldn't suggest that the teachers should do it.
  • [heartrending story]
    Where was this school district, that I might never go near it?

    I mean...damn. How can educational staff be contributing to a problem like that? Don't they have to go through some kind of training? Or at least some kind of litmus test, to make sure they're not going to be assholes to children? I'd think being an asshole to children would be a sign you shouldn't be going into primary education. Perhaps that's just me.
    At the very least, students who think that they can get away with torturing someone on the bus should be caught on camera and then KICKED OFF the bus for a time. If it was a group, then make an example of the ringleader. Let their parents be pissed at them for having to drive them to school every day.
    This brings up an interesting point: If part of the problem is that instances of bullying often devolve into cases of "he said / she said" from the teacher's perspective, without any hard evidence on either side, why don't more schools have security cameras in place? Hell, put the bully issue aside for a second, it's a place parents are entrusting the safety of their kids with; funding issues or no, shouldn't they have security cameras anyways? It seems to me this wouldn't be a superfluous expenditure, and would at least solve the "acquittal from lack of evidence" problem in the process.
  • This brings up an interesting point: If part of the problem is that instances of bullying often devolve into cases of "he said / she said" from the teacher's perspective, without any hard evidence on either side, why don't more schools have security cameras in place? Hell, put the bully issue aside for a second, it's a place parents are entrusting the safety of their kids with; funding issues or no, shouldn't they have security camerasanyways? It seems to me this wouldn't be a superfluous expenditure, and would at least solve the "acquittal from lack of evidence" problem in the process.
    Not only are cameras great in schools for this reason, but they are great for other reasons as well. See Bill Gate's TED talk for more on this very issue.
  • edited November 2009
    [heartrending story]
    Where was this school district, that I might never go near it?

    I mean...damn. How can educational staff be contributing to a problem like that? Don't they have to go through some kind of training? Or at least some kind of litmus test, to make sure they're not going to be assholes to children? I'd think being an asshole to children would be a sign you shouldn't be going into primary education. Perhaps that's just me.

    At the very least, students who think that they can get away with torturing someone on the bus should be caught on camera and then KICKED OFF the bus for a time. If it was a group, then make an example of the ringleader. Let their parents be pissed at them for having to drive them to school every day.
    This brings up an interesting point: If part of the problem is that instances of bullying often devolve into cases of "he said / she said" from the teacher's perspective, without any hard evidence on either side, why don't more schools have security cameras in place? Hell, put the bully issue aside for a second, it's a place parents are entrusting the safety of their kids with; funding issues or no, shouldn't they have security camerasanyways? It seems to me this wouldn't be a superfluous expenditure, and would at least solve the "acquittal from lack of evidence" problem in the process.
    EDIT:
    I think a lot of problems on buses could be solved by not having incredibly low wage blue-collar people drive the bus. Have the teachers and administrators drive the buses. Counselors drive the buses to summer camp, so why not teachers driving the buses to school?
    Because so much work goes into proper teaching that instructors don't have time? I mean, I guess they could just teach blindly from the syllabus and phone it in during the day, if that's what you'd prefer.

    Bear in mind, summer camp counselors are driving as a one-time deal (alright, two-time if they're doing it again at the end of summer), most likely have either been preparing everything for a while before camp starts (or had it already prepared for them), and, well, it's not like the curriculum of most summer camps involves teaching the circumference of a circle.

    EDIT 2:Wait, WTS just happened? Is this because I edited my post as someone was quoting it?
    Post edited by SoylentGreenIsPurple on
  • I think a lot of problems on buses could be solved by not having incredibly low wage blue-collar people drive the bus. Have the teachers and administrators drive the buses. Counselors drive the buses to summer camp, so why not teachers driving the buses to school?

    Then again, when i was in elementary school, my bus driver was Ralph. He was the greatest school bus driver to ever live, as far as I am concerned. He was almost exactly the same as Chef from South Park. After elementary school, the other bus drivers were just doing the job, and didn't care. If more bus drivers were like Ralph, I wouldn't suggest that the teachers should do it.
    That is true in the sense that the people driving the school bus really don't have any kind of affiliation with the school itself. I was lucky enough that my mom would drive me to school every day, so I really don't know that much about riding on the bus constantly. Still, it's one of those weird things.

    Money is a huge deal and I'd really, REALLY would love to know how our money is affecting education. Considering how often schools require money and how often it was a profession of choice in older times. When now, it feels like the standards are higher while nothing else is there to compensate for it. If you really want to make people more interested in teaching, raise the damn salary. It's a job like a cop or firefighter or emergency rescue where it just follows you.
    [heartrending story]
    Where was this school district, that I might never go near it?

    I mean...damn. How can educational staff be contributing to a problem like that? Don't they have to go through some kind of training? Or at least some kind of litmus test, to make sure they're not going to be assholes to children? I'd think being an asshole to children would be a sign you shouldn't be going into primary education. Perhaps that's just me.
    The educational staff will go along with the douchebaggery from time to time, just because of bias. Mostly, I see this being done with gym teachers because they really are in that position of power. If they see their jocks messing with some kid, they think "Oh, that kid clearly did something wrong. No way I'm gonna let Mr. Scholarship to UVA feel sad!" It's petty power and they'll do anything to keep it, mostly because they can't really get a better job outside of the system. So they'll abuse it for their own needs if necessary. It just strokes their little ego because their life is probably already pathetic.

    One of my teachers was like that, who taught math but let all of the football/basketball players and cheerleaders get straight As through the class. But the nerds and weirdos like me? We got crapped on because we weren't good in his eyes. And we got really lucked out of it because the motherfucker couldn't teach and would rather rant on about his failing basketball team or how much we are bad in comparison to jocks. I actually remembered going around students asking "How much trouble will I get in if I punch the teacher?" Everyone said I'd probably get expelled so I never did it.

    If you really want to get people to pay attention, sick your parents on the principal and have them rage on him why this teacher is bad. That's what worked for me. Not to mention, all of that will stay in the sphere of parent-teacher relationships, so it's not like students can call you a momma's boy or anything.
  • I wasn't really bullied in high school, mostly because I was jaded by the time I got there and the school was large enough that I could find social groups that I fit in to. Elementary and middle school, on the other hand...

    I wasn't bullied as much as Judith, but it was a fairly regular occurrence. Because I moved schools about every .75 years, I was constantly the "new kid". As such, I learned how to make friends easily, but I also experimented with various ways of deterring bullies. The most effective way was to know martial arts, and practice regularly. Also, the ruler-on-the-knuckles trick was put to good use, since it's so degrading (and sets up an unbalanced power relationship between the bully and myself). I don't want to say that violence is the answer, but bullies are generally sobered by the knowledge that you can make them feel terrible pain (that doesn't leave traces) at your whim.

    One time, on a bus ride to my friend's house, some kids kept trying to go through my bookbag (since I was poor, it had many holes). One of them pulled out my ruler, an old metal one. Suffice to say, I tried to stop them from stealing it, and my hand was gashed open. Instead of showing fear or disgust, I simply slapped the thief on the face with my bloody hand, then snatched my ruler back as they cried out in shock. They never gave me trouble again.
  • edited November 2009
    Being home schooled, I have not had much experience with bullying. The only thing that comes to mind is when three big, scary looking high school kids on bikes told me to give them all my money while I was walking down the street. I chuckled and kept walking, and they never bothered me again.
    Post edited by Walker on
  • I didn't trust teachers. It made me not trust authorities. That turned into not trusting anyone. My childhood shaped my distrust of most adults.

    My experiences closely resemble Loltsundere's except add copious racism, kicking ass and AAVE. I would hear the teachers joining the students in making jokes. Most would just turn a blind eye. Others wouldn't even look at me when I voiced concern. It was the same at all the school I went to. I applaud Nillia for not wanting to be like those teachers. For actually wanting to do something. They are few and far between.

    There was one good teacher; an art teacher. He actually tried to make painting class an enjoyable one. Before him I thought there were no good helpful teachers.
  • There was one good teacher; an art teacher. He actually tried to make painting class an enjoyable one. Before him I thought there were no good helpful teachers.
    Cue Mr.Macross and a bolstering of the arts.
  • I was fortunate to never really be directly bullied. I was never popular or anything but I think moving around a lot (Coast Guard family) carried both the disadvantage of losing my friends every couple years and the advantage of never being around long enough to catch the eyes of any bullies. I was in the same place for all of high school and was lucky enough to be in a small school where there wasn't really any bullying that I was aware of and even the cliques that formed weren't all that strictly walled-off from everyone else.

    I like the idea of school cameras. Like Scott said, it would probably help with a lot more than bullying. I do wonder if it would be feasible in terms of cost and maintenance, and also if some schools would simply not use them to avoid actually having to deal with the problems brought about by hard evidence.

    I know this has been mentioned before, but we also have our overly-litigious society to consider when looking into the causes and solutions of bullying. However true it may be, punishing a kid and telling the parents that it was because their child is a jerk (in whatever sugar-coated words an administrator chooses) is just asking for trouble. Part of solving the problem of bullying would have to involve getting parents to own up to their child's behavior.

    Cameras, for better or worse, would complicate this further. Having evidence of bullying would certainly add to the victims' cause, but how would the bullies' parents react? How many would own up and try to help in the face of hard evidence, and how many would retreat further into denial or possibly escalate the conflict?
  • Wow, this whole thread got away form me!

    I was bullied heavily in elementary school. It was daily and usually verbal to incite me to anger and send me into a rage which would typically be intercepted by a teacher, and in cases where it wasn't, it was I who was usually in trouble. What infuriated me the most was that, from what I remember, teachers NEVER believed me and always believed the other kids stories of me going crazy for no reason. This frustration increased my anger issues, of course, and it didn't end until I entered a magnet program in 7th grade.

    I encountered less bullying and was better at dealing with it, particularly because I made it known to teachers and administrators that I never lied about anything, so my side was always taken. Any antagonism was minimal and I get better at ignoring it, while taking karate improved my confidence. Not only did I realize I was smarter than most of my antagonists, I was sure I could take them in a fight. Taking the "self-defense only" approach, I never got in trouble for defending myself against anyone stupid enough to take a swing at me because I ignored their attempts to trigger a response.

    In high school, my confidence was high enough that I rarely got into conflicts that went further than words. Even physical encounters generally went in my favor. The last encounter I had with bullying was in college, which if anyone has heard my "Albert Story" knows about. I came out of that one smelling like roses and my adversary ended up bottoming out of college.

    I also have a unique perspective also being a teacher. Having taught the longest at the k-3 level, I have only encountered bullying on certain levels, but I have a 'nose' for it and am very good at getting to the truth. Children at the ages I was teaching can be very accomplished liars and it can be hard to tell the antagonist/instigator at times. The worst situations were students where I had two girls who both had bad attitudes and both tried to instigate each other. I was terribly frustrated dealing with the two of them in my class because of the litany of "but she did X first" that would come out. There were rare occasions where I caught actually bullying with some of the kids since I kept them pretty busy in my class, but whenever antagonism appeared, I came down like a ton of bricks. This may be why it didn't happen around me that often, because the kids more likely to instigate were on my radar and knew it.

    With the youngest kids, the bullies often don't know exactly what they're doing, and the kid being antagonized doesn't have proper skills to deal with that sort of thing. You have to address both in those cases, teaching skills on coping and proper response to those who need them.

    As far as the comments above go in "mainstreaming", I too have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, creating a classroom with many students at many levels creates a similar environment to the 'real world'. It can be beneficial for the student's social development as well as encouraging students who are lower performers to increase their efforts (sometimes unconsciously) and improving performance. This does cause a problem with kids who we would label as 'gifted' who are particularly smart and need more challenges, and those who have trouble due to a learning disability or a poor home life or other reasons. Sometimes separation can be very beneficial to both high and low groups, but conversely can create confidence issues and socialization issues in both groups AND in the 'normal' groups. Studies that I read during my masters degree covered this sort of thing, and it really is difficult to create a 'perfect' classroom.

    Additionally, we read a book about a guy who had his tests switched when he was in elementary school with a kid who was not nearly as smart as he was. We learned that he was put into remedial classes and was assumed to be 'dumb', and continued to struggle and receive poor grades through junior high school. It wasn't until a teacher started questioning his performance not seeming to match his natural intelligence. He was given more challenging work, constantly being encouraged by this one teacher, and they found out he should not have been in a group of low performing students in the first place. The low placement affected his confidence and his grades, since he was convinced he was dumb all along. The kicker of this story is that the kid who was supposed to be put in the slow class based on the test was performing as normal in on-grade-level classes. No one stuck that kid in the slow class, he was treated as a normal student, and performed as expected of him. I use the ideas from this book when I teach, typically teaching more advanced concepts to younger students. I had kindergartners remembering concepts and language like "implied line", "horizontal", "vertical" etc. Pretty cool for 5 year olds.

    The book speaks worlds about how student confidence can affect performance, how relying entirely on tests can screw everything up, and was an argument for mixed skill level classrooms. But from experience, sometimes the least restrictive environment is not always the best. Some students simply need a small class with no more than 5 classmates and heavy teacher attention in order to learn anything.
  • Sounds like the best thing to do would be to just put everyone in the gifted class. If all the kids are uber-confident and feel like they are gifted, maybe they will all do really well.

    However, I've also heard multiple times recently that it is a very bad idea to tell kids they are smart, and a much better idea to tell them they worked hard.
  • Sounds like the best thing to do would be to just put everyone in the gifted class. If all the kids are uber-confident and feel like they are gifted, maybe they will all do really well.
    If everyone is special, than no one is.
    However, I've also heard multiple times recently that it is a very bad idea to tell kids they are smart, and a much better idea to tell them they worked hard.
    That was for a specific study, but the principle carries over tangentially. If you tell kids they did well because they were smart, they think that they don't have to try. If you tell kids they did well because they worked hard, you get better results.
  • Sounds like the best thing to do would be to just put everyone in the gifted class. If all the kids are uber-confident and feel like they are gifted, maybe they will all do really well.
    If everyone is special, than no one is.

    Certaintly profane.
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