The part that I find most aggravating about people boycotting PAX is their persistence to get people to join their cause. It's great that they have their own views and believe in something but fuck you if you're going to try and push your personal unhappiness on me.
The part that I find most aggravating about people boycotting PAX is their persistence to get people to join their cause. It's great that they have their own views and believe in something but fuck you if you're going to try and push your personal unhappiness on me.
Added aggrevation for the people who've never been to PAX/couldn't go to PAX calling for a boycot.
This is a problem with a lot of the criticism. It's not a first step. PAX's harassment policy has always been incredibly strict, and while it's not 100% effective they've added mechanisms and improvements (safety circle, etc) over the years. A lot of the critics (and pro-dickwolf assholes) forget this, and pay no mind to what has come before.
So the people whining the loudest about the diversity space are probably the ones that need that training the most?
Funnily enough, no. They're the second loudest. The ones who are the loudest are the SJWs who normally demand designated safe spaces, and will defend them in other places - but with the SJWs, if you miss their standards once, you're a shitlord for life no matter what you do, and everything you ever do is obviously horrible shit that must be railed against at full force and as much impotent fury as you can muster. And the only way to redeem yourself is a slow and painful suicide before being dumped in an unmarked grave, and erased from history - because no matter what else you do, it will never be enough.
It's a first step towards making amends since their last round of saying and doing awful shit. Besides, setting stuff up isn't a swear jar; you don't get freebies because you've done nice things in the past, and you can't erase the things you've said or done, either. You can just try and improve. There is no point that is "good enough." You can always do better.
Like, I understand a lot of people on this board identify closely with PAX and PA. It's important to them for legit reasons. But you have to be willing to be critical of the stuff you like. You have to be ready to acknowledge things being bad and when you let issues go after token appeasement, you are essentially allowing PR people to cynically manipulate your loyalty. You shouldn't have loyalty to stuff like conventions or companies or celebrities, even if they are geek conventions, companies or celebrities! Scrutinize everything! Trust no one, and trust yourself less!
That said, Penny Arcade are definitely just the popular whipping boys for the social justice quarters of the internet, and it is pretty irritating because they are hardly the most egregious offenders. Really, it just comes down to Krahulik's inability to not say stupid shit, and he isn't the only person who suffers from that, and, probably worse, PA's fanbase leaping to their defense as violently as they can, every time. I get annoyed with those people, too. I like Penny Arcade! The comic is funny, the charity is awesome, the conventions are fantastic, their shows are interesting and their podcast is cool! Mike and Jerry are awesome folks, and I was totally starstruck when I got to shake Mike's hand at PAX last year. That doesn't make them above criticism, or mean they have a faster cool-down where it's not okay to criticize them anymore!
There is a middle ground between "PA can do no wrong, stop complaining, you are the problem!" and "The Penny Arcade people are literately rapists and everything they do is out of malice!" I think it's good they've done this, but I don't think it's the end of the issue. There is a lot more they can do, and I don't think it's unreasonable of me to want to see a lot more positives and a lot fewer negatives out of them before they get the benefit of the doubt again!
I won't be satisfied until PAX becomes three straight days of sensitivity training and Anita Sarkeesian videos!
PAX already does more than every other convention ever, and they continue to do even more. These people just can't reconcile that an organization where one of the top people says such stupid shit is actually the best amongst its competitors in the aspects they care about. Imagine if a Mexican drug lord owned the best substance abuse rehab centers.
Let's see some more shots fired at NYCC, SDCC, Otakon, etc.
So the people whining the loudest about the diversity space are probably the ones that need that training the most?
Funnily enough, no. They're the second loudest. The ones who are the loudest are the SJWs who normally demand designated safe spaces, and will defend them in other places - but with the SJWs, if you miss their standards once, you're a shitlord for life no matter what you do, and everything you ever do is obviously horrible shit that must be railed against at full force and as much impotent fury as you can muster. And the only way to redeem yourself is a slow and painful suicide before being dumped in an unmarked grave, and erased from history - because no matter what else you do, it will never be enough.
PAX already does more than every other convention ever, and they continue to do even more. These people just can't reconcile that an organization where one of the top people says such stupid shit is actually the best amongst its competitors in the aspects they care about. Imagine if a Mexican drug lord owned the best substance abuse rehab centers.
Let's see some more shots fired at NYCC, SDCC, Otakon, etc.
The worst offenders are not necessarily worth the most effort.
Like, I understand a lot of people on this board identify closely with PAX and PA. It's important to them for legit reasons. But you have to be willing to be critical of the stuff you like. You have to be ready to acknowledge things being bad and when you let issues go after token appeasement, you are essentially allowing PR people to cynically manipulate your loyalty. You shouldn't have loyalty to stuff like conventions or companies or celebrities, even if they are geek conventions, companies or celebrities! Scrutinize everything! Trust no one, and trust yourself less!
I just realize that the convention is not run by Jerry Holkins, Mike Krahulik, and Robert Khoo. It's actually run by a community of volunteers that are a diverse group of nice people that try to make sure everyone is having a good time. I guarantee most of it is set up by Robert Khoo and Jerry and Mike are just the Queens of England showing up to smile and wave. If you have a problem with PAX you should be saying you have a problem with the enforcers. There's been at least one vocal issue of harassment but it was handled about the way it should and the community seems to be pretty sympathetic for that individual. Any social gathering is going to have some bullshit at it. There's always that drunk annoying asshole at a football game that's being disrespectful. Just get someone to throw his ass out. My personal experience has been that nerdy people tend to have thin skin and take things very personally, they also don't forgive and forget easily. I'm not one of those people.
PAX already does more than every other convention ever, and they continue to do even more. These people just can't reconcile that an organization where one of the top people says such stupid shit is actually the best amongst its competitors in the aspects they care about. Imagine if a Mexican drug lord owned the best substance abuse rehab centers.
Let's see some more shots fired at NYCC, SDCC, Otakon, etc.
I totally agree with this! But PAX being the best isn't the same as PAX being perfect. You don't take the shots you were going to take at PAX and shoot them at other cons, you shoot more cons in general.
We may need to upgrade to fully automatic weapons, however.
So the people whining the loudest about the diversity space are probably the ones that need that training the most?
Funnily enough, no. They're the second loudest. The ones who are the loudest are the SJWs who normally demand designated safe spaces, and will defend them in other places - but with the SJWs, if you miss their standards once, you're a shitlord for life no matter what you do, and everything you ever do is obviously horrible shit that must be railed against at full force and as much impotent fury as you can muster. And the only way to redeem yourself is a slow and painful suicide before being dumped in an unmarked grave, and erased from history - because no matter what else you do, it will never be enough.
My inability to look away from a trainwreck today has had me keeping an eye on forums and social media, and I'd say Churba is correct here.
PAX already does more than every other convention ever, and they continue to do even more. These people just can't reconcile that an organization where one of the top people says such stupid shit is actually the best amongst its competitors in the aspects they care about. Imagine if a Mexican drug lord owned the best substance abuse rehab centers.
Let's see some more shots fired at NYCC, SDCC, Otakon, etc.
It's just laziness. People want to tear down the thing that is closest to them, b/c it's the easiest target. Why get off the couch if you don't have to? Hey, let's talk about sports!
Other cons don't have this issue because they generally are not run by people who are also media personalities. The Strength of the PAX brand is on Jerry and Mike (cultivated by Robert) Going after Otakon or NYCC or any other convention for one of their staffers comments just isn't the same because in generally none of those people are the face and voice of the brand. PAX lends itself to those attacks only because it's brand is built on the personalities of two people. Otakon or other conventions don't have that sort of issue because in general it's staff/leadership is not connected to it's brand. Only insiders know people like Jim Vowles. Otherwise no one gives a rats ass what the Con chair of some convention says.
A good step in attempting to rectify some problems. Far from perfect. Definitely laudable. Complaining is counter-productive - the best tack to take is "This is a good start, and I'd like to see more of this in the future."
It's actually run by a community of volunteers that are a diverse group of nice people that try to make sure everyone is having a good time. I guarantee most of it is set up by Robert Khoo and Jerry and Mike are just the Queens of England showing up to smile and wave. If you have a problem with PAX you should be saying you have a problem with the enforcers.
This is why the anti-PAX backlash makes me angry. I'm an enforcer. I spend incredible amounts of energy trying to make PAX the best convention for everyone. But I'm only one person. And the enforcers are less than a thousand people all together. PAX, like every gathering of diverse humans in the history of the world, will never be 100% perfect for everyone.
The criticisms of PAX which are the loudest and widest-spread aren't "Well, we want to make it even better than it already is." They are more akin to "I can't keep quiet about this terrible thing anymore, so I'm making a stand and boycotting it." They're attacks on my character and motivations, and the motivations of every enforcer.
EDIT: I spent about 10 minutes writing a long post comparing the modern social justice movement to left-wing radicals in the 60's and 70's, but it kind of went off the rails. Suffice it to say, infighting and factionalism are the ever-present perils of left-wing groups, and they always lead to shit in the greater society not being fixed.
So please, let's just ease up just one iota against PAX and maybe put our energy towards fixing the actual, glaringly obvious inequalities and bigotry in gaming and nerd-dom. Instead of boycotting PAX, boycott every convention with shitty policies, and refuse to give media attention to publishers and developers who perpetuate bigotry. Instead of waiting with baited breath for Mike to say something dumb, go out and start LGBTQ gaming charities, or support ones that exist. It's easy to sit around on the internet complaining about stuff, but it's not helpful.
EDIT: In response to open_sketchbook, I think media coverage and societal memes, while not entirely zero-sum, have to be balanced. We as a society don't have an infinite capacity for attention, and this ongoing PAX criticism does take energy and attention away from far more egregious examples of bigotry. I'm not saying never criticise PAX, but don't spend 90% of your energy on it while effectively ignoring the more problematic cases.
Hello. AaronC here aka AirWolf at PAX. I'm one of the Enforcer Lt's, which I mention for context.
After 2009 I'm no longer surprised by the number of people attending PAX who don't know anything about Penny Arcade, don't know who Mike and Jerry are, can't pick out Robert Khoo in a crowd and know next to nothing about the PA Culture. It's both good and bad, it does mean we have a much more diverse attendee base now that doesn't all have the same lexicon, doesn't have the same shared history and it's forced PAX to evolve and grow.
One of the issues that I have, among many, with the PAX detractors is the unwillingness to let PAX grow and evolve. They want PAX to be what they want and they want it done overnight and done without a single mistake. Well, it just won't happen. The men and women running PAX didn't start out as professionals, they have made mistakes and they continue to grow.
I look at the actual people running PAX Prime, East and Australia, both the paid Reed staff, the Penny Arcade employees and the Enforcers and I see the most diverse group and most representative group I've ever worked with in any capacity. It's insulting to me when I read comments saying how awful the people putting these shows together are, those comments just don't reflect reality.
PAX will never be a "Safe Space" if by safe space you mean a place where every attendee is accepting of every other attendee and no one is ever made to feel bad in any way. It just will never happen. PAX is a Safe Space if by safe space you mean we have rules, we follow them and we eject people for breaking them.
Example: PAX Aus had two men creeping on female cosplayers. I found them, but only because attendees helped find them. They were kicked out, passes pulled.
PAX has set forth rules, we make sure they are followed. When they aren't, the staff needs to know. Clearly PAX Staff is also trying to go what I personally think is above and beyond and encourage a "Safe Space" for conversations and education into issues most attendees won't have thought about before.
I eagerly the official announcement and to talk with Khoo about implementation and training. I'd like to find out who leaked this before it was ready and do something mean to them.
I actually pretty much agree with you, Yosho. I actually think the boycotting in particular is pretty dumb; it's just surrendering those spaces to awful people. (I am, after all, submitted to the Indie Megabooth). Like, when the Fullbright Company took their ball and went home, it was a powerful and useful statement; they had a game about those issues and they didn't want it represented at PAX in light of recent events, it was totally reasonable. And it probably did more than a thousand people whining on the internet; it's probably directly the reason PAX is trying this new thing. But a blanket boycott is just writing off the best, overall most accepting con there is because one guy said some stupid shit.
Everyone I know who complains is upset specifically because Krahulik and those who support his more radically stupid statements are omnipresent in the convention.
They are upset with the fact that the best and most popular gaming convention is run by someone who has often has opinions and thoughts that are harmful and insulting to them on the most base level, and that bringing it up results in them receiving death threats, rape threats, and horrible criticism. They are upset that Krahulik can say something stupid and offensive to rape survivors at the convention and be met by hordes of stupid people cheering.
I agree that their widespread anger with PAX as a whole is misplaced. But I can also understand the idea of not supporting the PA brand. The PA brand as a whole has not helped them, and has often harmed them. Even as more and more PAX attendees don't care about the PA brand, the most negative aspects of it are deep in the society of PAX, even if not in every part of it.
To them, every good thing PA does will not be enough, because they can't forgive Krahulik for his mistakes. I don't necessarily agree with that, but at the same time, he repeats his mistakes often enough that I understand not wanting to forgive him.
I am torn, because I understand how PAX does their best to be a safe place. But I can't begrudge those who find PAX to not be a safe place, and who don't want to help financially support a man who has contributed to them feeling unsafe and unwanted.
Example: PAX Aus had two men creeping on female cosplayers. I found them, but only because attendees helped find them. They were kicked out, passes pulled.
I'll be honest - that happened right outside my theatre, while I was on shift, in the area we were responsible for. I'm quite ashamed that happened, we should have caught it and nipped it in the bud, and we failed to do so. I know it wasn't strictly my fault or the fault of my team, but we should have done better, and you can be quite sure that we will next time - though I damned well hope there isn't one.
It slightly irks me when people say its an unsafe environment. I've never seen anyone get maimed or killed or raped at PAX nor do I think there is ever a threat of that happening. There's hundreds of people about. People might feel uncomfortable that there among the crowd are people that have highly offensive sentiments. I can understand being against PA as a brand but it's pretty easy to argue that PAX has become much more than a convention for PA fans, its basically what E3 used to be way back when. It just happens to have the name Penny Arcade associated with it.
Churba, you shouldn't feel bad, those two creeped on a number of attendees before we could find them. I also should point out that I didn't find them by myself, it took the efforts of attendees, other Enforcers and the venue security (who were excellent).
The point is that even with all our rules in place we can't stop dickish behavior and we will be reactive in many cases. We can not vet every attendee before they come in, who would want to go the the convention that has so much security you can't have any fun?
What PA is doing with the diversity hub is a great proactive move.
The FRC forum is special to me because it is so close. At other parts of the internet I still hate things like that, but I don't feel like I can expect better behavior.
I really like the characters of Gabe and Tycho. The people of Mike and Jerry, being perhaps only marginally removed beings from their personas, are still interesting characters, and only marginally less interesting people in overall terms.
People can hate on Mike, or Jerry for his part, and I understand that he (they) posses a tendency to say things which aren't kosher. As someone who wields considerable fanbase and is part of a visible figure behind a brand, his best method of operation is to stay conservative (not politically) on things he says: make no radical claims and say nothing that could offend. He simply doesn't seem to have the training or exposure to even know at times which things would be offensive or why. But adding on top of that the fact that Penny Arcade pegs a factor of its appeal and fandom on not giving a fuck, or watching themselves. They have made it perhaps an operative mode, a key component in the machinations of their empire, that real shit be spake. There is no qualifier that this realness be considered appropriate, accepting, safe, or offenseless, and there are times when real people got butt devastated at the other end of their penis mightier; either the prose end or the art end. Either end really would do it.
Ultimately, there's the PAX. These two are part of it, as much as they claim to be smaller than the machine which dwarfs them, and if either or both were to retire, PA and the PAX would continue in some form; or a torch would be passed to those who set it up. Khoo would find an heir to the PAX throne. Maybe it would be called SAX, or JAX, or CRUX... so many opportunities! I wouldn't put the actions of either man against the PAX, but I am not a company and I can understand that sometimes, a group has to make a statement, and sometimes the way to do that is to say "I'm not coming to your party because of X, you should fix that."
And, I accept their apologies, mess-ups, and imperfections of all forms. They do good work, they bring real humor and good commentary and I like dem arts. There's nothing bad with that. And I support what they do, usually by falling into the succubus-like pedipalps of the Merch. I hope that if they have misguided viewpoints on certain people or activities or orientations or systems of governance or whether or not this should do that... I hope that they will evolve and figure things out, as we all must do.
Comments
Like, I understand a lot of people on this board identify closely with PAX and PA. It's important to them for legit reasons. But you have to be willing to be critical of the stuff you like. You have to be ready to acknowledge things being bad and when you let issues go after token appeasement, you are essentially allowing PR people to cynically manipulate your loyalty. You shouldn't have loyalty to stuff like conventions or companies or celebrities, even if they are geek conventions, companies or celebrities! Scrutinize everything! Trust no one, and trust yourself less!
That said, Penny Arcade are definitely just the popular whipping boys for the social justice quarters of the internet, and it is pretty irritating because they are hardly the most egregious offenders. Really, it just comes down to Krahulik's inability to not say stupid shit, and he isn't the only person who suffers from that, and, probably worse, PA's fanbase leaping to their defense as violently as they can, every time. I get annoyed with those people, too. I like Penny Arcade! The comic is funny, the charity is awesome, the conventions are fantastic, their shows are interesting and their podcast is cool! Mike and Jerry are awesome folks, and I was totally starstruck when I got to shake Mike's hand at PAX last year. That doesn't make them above criticism, or mean they have a faster cool-down where it's not okay to criticize them anymore!
There is a middle ground between "PA can do no wrong, stop complaining, you are the problem!" and "The Penny Arcade people are literately rapists and everything they do is out of malice!" I think it's good they've done this, but I don't think it's the end of the issue. There is a lot more they can do, and I don't think it's unreasonable of me to want to see a lot more positives and a lot fewer negatives out of them before they get the benefit of the doubt again!
I won't be satisfied until PAX becomes three straight days of sensitivity training and Anita Sarkeesian videos!
Edit: I had to look up what SJW stood for. I, unfortunately, know a person like that.
Let's see some more shots fired at NYCC, SDCC, Otakon, etc.
We may need to upgrade to fully automatic weapons, however.
A good step in attempting to rectify some problems. Far from perfect. Definitely laudable. Complaining is counter-productive - the best tack to take is "This is a good start, and I'd like to see more of this in the future."
The criticisms of PAX which are the loudest and widest-spread aren't "Well, we want to make it even better than it already is." They are more akin to "I can't keep quiet about this terrible thing anymore, so I'm making a stand and boycotting it." They're attacks on my character and motivations, and the motivations of every enforcer.
EDIT: I spent about 10 minutes writing a long post comparing the modern social justice movement to left-wing radicals in the 60's and 70's, but it kind of went off the rails. Suffice it to say, infighting and factionalism are the ever-present perils of left-wing groups, and they always lead to shit in the greater society not being fixed.
So please, let's just ease up just one iota against PAX and maybe put our energy towards fixing the actual, glaringly obvious inequalities and bigotry in gaming and nerd-dom. Instead of boycotting PAX, boycott every convention with shitty policies, and refuse to give media attention to publishers and developers who perpetuate bigotry. Instead of waiting with baited breath for Mike to say something dumb, go out and start LGBTQ gaming charities, or support ones that exist. It's easy to sit around on the internet complaining about stuff, but it's not helpful.
EDIT: In response to open_sketchbook, I think media coverage and societal memes, while not entirely zero-sum, have to be balanced. We as a society don't have an infinite capacity for attention, and this ongoing PAX criticism does take energy and attention away from far more egregious examples of bigotry. I'm not saying never criticise PAX, but don't spend 90% of your energy on it while effectively ignoring the more problematic cases.
After 2009 I'm no longer surprised by the number of people attending PAX who don't know anything about Penny Arcade, don't know who Mike and Jerry are, can't pick out Robert Khoo in a crowd and know next to nothing about the PA Culture. It's both good and bad, it does mean we have a much more diverse attendee base now that doesn't all have the same lexicon, doesn't have the same shared history and it's forced PAX to evolve and grow.
One of the issues that I have, among many, with the PAX detractors is the unwillingness to let PAX grow and evolve. They want PAX to be what they want and they want it done overnight and done without a single mistake. Well, it just won't happen. The men and women running PAX didn't start out as professionals, they have made mistakes and they continue to grow.
I look at the actual people running PAX Prime, East and Australia, both the paid Reed staff, the Penny Arcade employees and the Enforcers and I see the most diverse group and most representative group I've ever worked with in any capacity. It's insulting to me when I read comments saying how awful the people putting these shows together are, those comments just don't reflect reality.
PAX will never be a "Safe Space" if by safe space you mean a place where every attendee is accepting of every other attendee and no one is ever made to feel bad in any way. It just will never happen. PAX is a Safe Space if by safe space you mean we have rules, we follow them and we eject people for breaking them.
Example: PAX Aus had two men creeping on female cosplayers. I found them, but only because attendees helped find them. They were kicked out, passes pulled.
PAX has set forth rules, we make sure they are followed. When they aren't, the staff needs to know. Clearly PAX Staff is also trying to go what I personally think is above and beyond and encourage a "Safe Space" for conversations and education into issues most attendees won't have thought about before.
I eagerly the official announcement and to talk with Khoo about implementation and training. I'd like to find out who leaked this before it was ready and do something mean to them.
The above represents my feelings and thoughts.
They are upset with the fact that the best and most popular gaming convention is run by someone who has often has opinions and thoughts that are harmful and insulting to them on the most base level, and that bringing it up results in them receiving death threats, rape threats, and horrible criticism. They are upset that Krahulik can say something stupid and offensive to rape survivors at the convention and be met by hordes of stupid people cheering.
I agree that their widespread anger with PAX as a whole is misplaced. But I can also understand the idea of not supporting the PA brand. The PA brand as a whole has not helped them, and has often harmed them. Even as more and more PAX attendees don't care about the PA brand, the most negative aspects of it are deep in the society of PAX, even if not in every part of it.
To them, every good thing PA does will not be enough, because they can't forgive Krahulik for his mistakes. I don't necessarily agree with that, but at the same time, he repeats his mistakes often enough that I understand not wanting to forgive him.
I am torn, because I understand how PAX does their best to be a safe place. But I can't begrudge those who find PAX to not be a safe place, and who don't want to help financially support a man who has contributed to them feeling unsafe and unwanted.
The point is that even with all our rules in place we can't stop dickish behavior and we will be reactive in many cases. We can not vet every attendee before they come in, who would want to go the the convention that has so much security you can't have any fun?
What PA is doing with the diversity hub is a great proactive move.
Keep on, keepin' on FRCF.
People can hate on Mike, or Jerry for his part, and I understand that he (they) posses a tendency to say things which aren't kosher. As someone who wields considerable fanbase and is part of a visible figure behind a brand, his best method of operation is to stay conservative (not politically) on things he says: make no radical claims and say nothing that could offend. He simply doesn't seem to have the training or exposure to even know at times which things would be offensive or why. But adding on top of that the fact that Penny Arcade pegs a factor of its appeal and fandom on not giving a fuck, or watching themselves. They have made it perhaps an operative mode, a key component in the machinations of their empire, that real shit be spake. There is no qualifier that this realness be considered appropriate, accepting, safe, or offenseless, and there are times when real people got butt devastated at the other end of their penis mightier; either the prose end or the art end. Either end really would do it.
Ultimately, there's the PAX. These two are part of it, as much as they claim to be smaller than the machine which dwarfs them, and if either or both were to retire, PA and the PAX would continue in some form; or a torch would be passed to those who set it up. Khoo would find an heir to the PAX throne. Maybe it would be called SAX, or JAX, or CRUX... so many opportunities! I wouldn't put the actions of either man against the PAX, but I am not a company and I can understand that sometimes, a group has to make a statement, and sometimes the way to do that is to say "I'm not coming to your party because of X, you should fix that."
And, I accept their apologies, mess-ups, and imperfections of all forms. They do good work, they bring real humor and good commentary and I like dem arts. There's nothing bad with that. And I support what they do, usually by falling into the succubus-like pedipalps of the Merch. I hope that if they have misguided viewpoints on certain people or activities or orientations or systems of governance or whether or not this should do that... I hope that they will evolve and figure things out, as we all must do.