Panama Papers Please

Dazzle369

So tax evasion has the people of Iceland angry. They seem to be the first nation to get angry about economic injustice and actually have something done about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–11_Icelandic_financial_crisis

https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/716751158937686018

http://www.theguardian.com/news/live/2016/apr/04/panama-papers-global-reaction-to-huge-leak-of-offshore-tax-files-live

I imagine their PM will actually resign, but we'll see.

As far as I understand this whole revelation, is that the anonymous hacker only uncovered the mass of documents from 1 law firm in Panama. Just 1.

Yet, not all the documents have been released by Wikileaks. 149 out of 11.5 million

How deep is this problem? Very. I don't think it's much to assume that there are many more law firms/ shell companies providing similar services for very wealthy individuals all around the world.

The problem is gathering the evidence to hold the individuals responsible. Will the current evidence be use to pursue further investigation if not prosecution?

This is still yet only one broken facet to the world's economy problem. If anything can be done by the general public, it's being more vocal and reminding the governments of their responsibilities IMO.

Ruffas

24,000 Icelanders (7% of the population) went out to protest today.

Naoza

http://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/politics_and_society/2016/04/04/iceland_pm_i_will_not_resign/

Says, he won't resign. I'm anxious to see how it plays out.

Dazzle369

I'm waiting for more firms to have leaked docs. If they haven't already starting shredding and burning.

Daikun

Countries involved (so far, anyway) according to the leak:



List of the accused.

Apreche

The US ISN'T involved????? I find it hard to believe not one rich person in the US was offshoring with these guys. Or is this only counting countries where members of the government were doing it?

Rym

So...

There is some serious speculation that the leak was orchestrated or curated by US intelligence forces, or else at least interests with a desire to protect other US... interests.

Daikun

Please note that the leaks aren't yet complete. There's still much more info to uncover.

Any U.S. suspects should hopefully turn up as the investigation continues.

Naoza

Image is already out of date, read a thing earlier today saying Royal Bank of Canada officials implicated. Will go back and find if necessary.

Churba

A bit of perspective on how big this leak is - more than 400 journalists have been working on this for more than a year, to uncover just this much.

Also, it's fucking astounding that this many people knew about it, but it didn't become public knowledge. That's seriously impressive.

Dazzle369

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/04/panama-papers-tax-haven-used-by-politicians-and-celebrities/

"Where are all the Americans?
Fusion, one of the US media organisations given access to the leaked documents, has been looking at the reasons why only 211 people with American addresses have turned up in the data so far. The reason, it says, is that Americans can set up off-shore companies without even leaving the US, in states such as Delaware and Nevada.

Jason Sharman, co-author of Global Shell Games: Experiments in Transnational Relations, Crime, and Terrorism, puts it this way:

One of the forms of companies that’s even more secret than, say, a British Virgin Islands company is a company incorporated in almost any US state. If you form a British Virgin Islands company you have to declare who you are to the person forming the company for you; if you form in Nevada, for example, you don’t… So Nevada is great because it’s much more secret than the British Virgin Islands."


How much money do you have to have, to be able to afford to pay people to 'hide' that money (which has to be less than what you would in tax)?

Apparently, in total, it's looking like 20+ trillions.

ninjarabbi

So like, more than our entire national debt.

Also,

No U.S. individuals in #PanamaPapers? "Just wait for what's coming next...," says editor of @SZ which got the leak https://t.co/tClDRsomHY

— Georgi Kantchev (@georgikantchev) April 3, 2016

chaosof99

I was wondering why on the map above only half of Switzerland was colored in. Then I realized a circle for Liechtenstein was covering it up.

Anyway, also surprised no Austrians have been implicated yet, as far as I know. I would have thought that FPÖ politicians could be in on such shady dealings.

Dazzle369

History doth repeateth? Iceland to be taken over by pirates

https://torrentfreak.com/panama-papers-pirates-prepare-to-takeover-iceland-160405/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Daikun

http://off-guardian.org/2016/04/03/panama-papers-cause-guardian-to-collapse-into-self-parody

sK0pe

So many Bollywood stars were outed by Indian newspapers on this.

The major thing there is that they were working a loophole to get vast amounts of money out of India at a time when such an action was heavily restricted, more so you couldn't really do it solely to start a company but from what I gather the Panama bank that was hacked just kept generating companies so that they could be bought out. I'll have to ask my family who still reside there, whether the event has changed public perception.

Axel

It has begun.

What happens following all this may very well be precedent-setting.

MATATAT

Despite the fact that people seem unhappy about this in general, is there anything that is actually illegal that has happened? I haven't looked into it enough to tell. But on a basic level it doesn't seem too much different than U.S. companies putting empty offices in other countries to say they have a presence there for the tax laws.

Apreche

Axel said:

It has begun.

What happens following all this may very well be precedent-setting.

I don't understand why he gives a fuck. If dude is so rich he can store his money offshore, why waste your time with being a Prime Minister? Just hit the beach. I guess he's going there now. Panama is pretty warm!

Axel

More than likely he had to work his way up to having that amount of money, by having a long-term plan. It also just makes sense to become in charge, minimize your chances of having more laws and restrictions passed that will stop you from doing what you're doing to keep your money.

Basically, all the rich conservatives share their tax-evasion secrets, see the liberals talk about higher taxes, then decide they'll elect one of them to make sure they can stay rich. Why don't they just leave with their money? People kind of like living in their homeland with the language they understand, and with their families (even if they are wealthy conservative scumbags).

SWATrous

If your friends are all doing rich person stuff, politicing, banking, developing... you may not want to be the guy doing nothing but relaxing.

You get thirsty.

Can you picture Frank Underwood retired on a beach or languishing in his mansion with golf clubs and guitars like the president he replaced? Hell nah.

Of I had all the money I could ever need to do anything I wanted I might be more Elon Musk than Donald Trump, but the allure of politics is strong it seems.

Rym

Someone on Fark, arguing with an anti-Obama nutto, pointed out something interesting. The Obamas aren't in the wealthy class. They're barely above upper middle class. The Clintons are not too far above them, either.

The money we're talking about with the Panama Papers... that's not money. It's old money and crime money. It's wealth.

Apreche

After I heard Cliffy B talk at PAX South about how he got rich, went to the beach, then came back I've been thinking more about why some people can't go to the beach. My current line of thinking is this:

The people who get rich in this world to the point where they can go to the beach are managers, business people, executives, financiers, etc. These people usually have nothing fulfilling they can do in their lives besides work.

Cliffy B can't make video games. He just tells other people what video games to make. If he's alone on the beach, he can't create anything. The artists and programmers he hires could go to the beach and have a fulfilling life where they still make things on their own, but they will never be rich enough to do so.

When creative or talented people do become wealthy, like movie directors or pro athletes, they can't go to the beach. It's not like you can enjoy being a pro athlete if you're on the beach not playing in the pro league! It's not like you can enjoy being a famous actor if you are on the beach and not starring in movies.

TL;DR: the kind of person who is likely to get enough money to beach is the least likely to be the kind who can handle the beach life. The kind of person who can live a fulfilling beach life, is the least likely to ever get enough money to do so.

Pegu

Dazzle369 said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/04/panama-papers-tax-haven-used-by-politicians-and-celebrities/

"Where are all the Americans?
Fusion, one of the US media organisations given access to the leaked documents, has been looking at the reasons why only 211 people with American addresses have turned up in the data so far. The reason, it says, is that Americans can set up off-shore companies without even leaving the US, in states such as Delaware and Nevada.

Jason Sharman, co-author of Global Shell Games: Experiments in Transnational Relations, Crime, and Terrorism, puts it this way:

One of the forms of companies that’s even more secret than, say, a British Virgin Islands company is a company incorporated in almost any US state. If you form a British Virgin Islands company you have to declare who you are to the person forming the company for you; if you form in Nevada, for example, you don’t… So Nevada is great because it’s much more secret than the British Virgin Islands."

Yeah, Planet Money just did an episode where they were trying to set up a shell company in offshore tax havens. They concluded that the US was actually the best place to hide your money. http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/07/27/157499893/episode-390-we-set-up-an-offshore-company-in-a-tax-haven

jabrams007

Pegu said:

Dazzle369 said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/04/panama-papers-tax-haven-used-by-politicians-and-celebrities/

"Where are all the Americans?
Fusion, one of the US media organisations given access to the leaked documents, has been looking at the reasons why only 211 people with American addresses have turned up in the data so far. The reason, it says, is that Americans can set up off-shore companies without even leaving the US, in states such as Delaware and Nevada.

Jason Sharman, co-author of Global Shell Games: Experiments in Transnational Relations, Crime, and Terrorism, puts it this way:

One of the forms of companies that’s even more secret than, say, a British Virgin Islands company is a company incorporated in almost any US state. If you form a British Virgin Islands company you have to declare who you are to the person forming the company for you; if you form in Nevada, for example, you don’t… So Nevada is great because it’s much more secret than the British Virgin Islands."

Yeah, Planet Money just did an episode where they were trying to set up a shell company in offshore tax havens. They concluded that the US was actually the best place to hide your money. http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/07/27/157499893/episode-390-we-set-up-an-offshore-company-in-a-tax-haven

Pegu said:

Dazzle369 said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/04/panama-papers-tax-haven-used-by-politicians-and-celebrities/

"Where are all the Americans?
Fusion, one of the US media organisations given access to the leaked documents, has been looking at the reasons why only 211 people with American addresses have turned up in the data so far. The reason, it says, is that Americans can set up off-shore companies without even leaving the US, in states such as Delaware and Nevada.

Jason Sharman, co-author of Global Shell Games: Experiments in Transnational Relations, Crime, and Terrorism, puts it this way:

One of the forms of companies that’s even more secret than, say, a British Virgin Islands company is a company incorporated in almost any US state. If you form a British Virgin Islands company you have to declare who you are to the person forming the company for you; if you form in Nevada, for example, you don’t… So Nevada is great because it’s much more secret than the British Virgin Islands."

Yeah, Planet Money just did an episode where they were trying to set up a shell company in offshore tax havens. They concluded that the US was actually the best place to hide your money. http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/07/27/157499893/episode-390-we-set-up-an-offshore-company-in-a-tax-haven

Here's the link in case anyone is interested. And for the record, they technically aired this originally in September and December of 2012, but it sure seems timely:

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/03/30/472452808/episode-403-what-can-we-do-with-our-shell-companies

Dazzle369

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/716795010751049728

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/05/obama-praises-treasurys-move-to-curb-tax-inversions.html

The same speech from 2008? If he doesn't crack the world's shell, who will

Linkigi(Link-ee-jee)

MATATAT said:

Despite the fact that people seem unhappy about this in general, is there anything that is actually illegal that has happened? I haven't looked into it enough to tell. But on a basic level it doesn't seem too much different than U.S. companies putting empty offices in other countries to say they have a presence there for the tax laws.

The act of setting up the shell corporations isn't itself illegal, but it smells real bad, as a major uses for those include:
a) Moving money out of the country to hide your income from tax services, which is tax evasion.
b) Hiding assets that may represent significant conflicts of interest, which the Icelandic PM did,
c) Taking bribes where the money isn't easy to find (FIFA)
d) Money laundering.

There are a number of good reasons for sticking assets in offshore shell companies, but they're also one of the major pipelines for illegal shit.

Apreche

Yes, it's true that having an offshore shell corporation isn't illegal. But there's pretty much no reason to have one unless you are using it for an illegal activity. It's just a hassle otherwise. And sure, maybe you are a person who live in Panama part of the year, or visits often, so you have accounts there. That makes sense. No problem. But if that was the case, you wouldn't have hired Mossack Fonseca to help you out.

Dazzle369

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35966412

Iceland 1- Prime Minister 1 plane ticket to Panama please

Naoza

Apreche said:

Yes, it's true that having an offshore shell corporation isn't illegal. But there's pretty much no reason to have one unless you are using it for an illegal activity. It's just a hassle otherwise. And sure, maybe you are a person who live in Panama part of the year, or visits often, so you have accounts there. That makes sense. No problem. But if that was the case, you wouldn't have hired Mossack Fonseca to help you out.

There are a few totally legal and legit reasons you might want an off-shore shell company that can't easily be traced back to you:

You live in a really dangerous place, e.g. Venezuela, and are rich, and, for some reason, don't wanna leave. Hiding a huge chunk of your wealth where the people who do the kidnapping and murder can't see or know about it might be in your best interest so as to not be kidnapped or murdered.

You're a company who wants to begin expanding business to panama but doesn't wanna show your competitors that you're doing so. So you set up a shell there and start building and at the last minute be like, SURPRISE BITCHES, we're already here, as you're competitors scramble to keep up.

That's all I can think of right now but while most off shore shell companies are probably used for shady, evil, and illegal things. A few are probably the handful of legal, and legit reasons that you can hardly blame people for doing.

Apreche

Well, the person from Venezuela is probably doing something illegal. At least, illegal in Venezuela. But yeah, you could be breaking a law that is morally permissible to break. There were reports that people were hiding money there to fund North Korea, but you could just as easily hide money to fund a revolution instead.

As for hiding money in a country to be all surprise! Show me one actual real world example of that ever happening ever.