MY source is a good friend who I haven't spoken to in a while, so I can't ask him where he heard it from, but I would trust him more than I would Wiki because he's corrected my mistakes by proving Wiki wrong on multiple occasions.
So just because you trust him, we should believe you? This is a False attribution fallacy. Next.
I'm sure you'd take wiki as a source right? But wiki is nothing but people, like my friend, who post this kind of stuff. So if your willing to accept wiki as a source, why aren't you willing to accept a reliable friend?
MY source is a good friend who I haven't spoken to in a while, so I can't ask him where he heard it from, but I would trust him more than I would Wiki because he's corrected my mistakes by proving Wiki wrong on multiple occasions.
So just because you trust him, we should believe you? This is a False attribution fallacy. Next.
I'm sure you'd take wiki as a source right? But wiki is nothing but people, like my friend, who post this kind of stuff. So if your willing to accept wiki as a source, why aren't you willing to accept a reliable friend?
Wikipedia is moderated. Most information on Wikipedia is reviewed by people with a decent level of knowledge in the subject. In contrast, the only person who listens to and reviews your friend's crazy ideas is you.
Wikipedia is moderated. Most information on Wikipedia is reviewed by people with a decent level of knowledge in the subject. In contrast, the only person who listens to and reviews your friend's crazy ideas is you.
Wiki also cites its sources. You can validate that information. Wikipedia is like a friend with a 'works cited' page.
Wikipedia is moderated. Most information on Wikipedia is reviewed by people with a decent level of knowledge in the subject. In contrast, the only person who listens to and reviews your friend's crazy ideas is you.
Wiki alsocitesits sources. You can validate that information. Wikipedia is like a friend with a 'workscited' page.
MY source is a good friend who I haven't spoken to in a while, so I can't ask him where he heard it from, but I would trust him more than I would Wiki because he's corrected my mistakes by proving Wiki wrong on multiple occasions.
So just because you trust him, we should believe you? This is a False attribution fallacy. Next.
I'm sure you'd take wiki as a source right? But wiki is nothing but people, like my friend, who post this kind of stuff. So if your willing to accept wiki as a source, why aren't you willing to accept a reliable friend?
Wikipedia is moderated. Most information on Wikipedia is reviewed by people with a decent level of knowledge in the subject. In contrast, the only person who listens to and reviews your friend's crazy ideas is you.
I'm the only one who listens to my friends crazy ideas? Everyone else was having a civil argument with me, but you just skipped all that and insulted me and my friend. Wow, very mature.
Firstly I'm not the only person he tells those idea to. I never even suggested that. Secondly, I finally got through to him and got my facts straightened out. His resource is Gatto. After John Taylor Gatto resigned from his teaching job he did a book on the origin of school. In his research he found that the first schools were in Europe, and designed to teach the lower class, like the servants and factory workers (not slaves, sorry), how to do simple stuff. So I had my facts off a bit, but the general idea of school designed to create the perfect working class is still there and that was my real point. So now I have a source. Fell free to google it and double check me.
My mother was a teacher for many years. Then she became a principal. My uncle was a teacher. I have another uncle who was a principal. One of my cousins is a teacher specializing in kids with developmental disabilities. My brother is a teacher. My wife was a teacher. As an attorney, she worked for the Educational Professional Standards Board, a firm that insured Universities, and now she works for the Maryland Department of Education. I have taught math in Owensoboro Community College, Jefferson Community College, Millersburg Military Institute, IDEA Pulbic Charter School, and I've taught paralegal studies, criminal law, and evidence at Daymar College. So I have some opinions on education.
First: Not everyone has parents that have the time, resources, or motivation to home school. Similarly, not everyone has the money to go to private school. Even if these people could get scholarships, some of them live in areas where there ARE no private schools. I was one of these. If it wasn't for public school, I would have been severely handicapped. I didn't care about the state of public school before I started going to school, other than being grateful that I had the opportunity to have more schooling than my grandfather, who couldn't finish the first grade for lack of a teacher and a school.
Second: Welcome to the world. Most things in it have checkered pasts. Saying you don't like public school because of some condition you think existed in the past is very similar to saying you don't like trees because people once used wood to burn witches. It's like saying you don't like ships because people used ships in the slave trade. It's like saying you don't like iron because people used iron to make shackles for those same slaves. It's like saying you don't like computers because the primary applications for computers in the mid twentieth century were mostly military.
If you don't like public schools for something you think they're doing badly NOW, then you might have a point. Until you can make such a point, you should refrain from speculating about the unfortunate genesis of public schools. It makes absolutely no difference now.
I don't like public schools because of the Teachers Union. A union is designed to benefit the members, not the company that hires its members. Unless a teacher starts raping kids you can't fire them. The only thing teachers are graded on is attendance (unless that has recently changed).
I also do not like the public schools because they are going from teaching knowledge to teaching how to pass a standardized test.
I don't like public schools because of the Teachers Union. A union is designed to benefit the members, not the company that hires its members. Unless a teacher starts raping kids you can't fire them. The only thing teachers are graded on is attendance (unless that has recently changed).
I also do not like the public schools because they are going from teaching knowledge to teaching how to pass a standardized test.
See, Mr. Lo? He says he doesn't like something about the state of schools now, and he states a reason why he does doesn't like it. I don't really agree with all of it, but at least he doesn't say he doesn't like it because of something that may or may not have happened in the distant past.
See, Mr. Lo? He says he doesn't like something about the state of schoolsnow, and he states a reasonwhyhe does doesn't like it. I don't really agree with all of it, but at least he doesn't say he doesn't like it because of something that may or may not have happened in the distant past.
What my point is, is that I believe schools are still doing the same thing that they did in the past. Creating the perfect workers that the economy needs. I have witnessed many people from public schools that are far from qualified for a good job because they didn't get anything near a good education. There are many exceptions to this, but most of the cases I know of, where it's a public elementary or high school that the person went to, I find it to be true. As I said earlier, you don't have to agree with my theory. And I understand that many parents don't have the motivation, or the time, to homeschool, and I think that the fact that there is a public school system is wonderful. I just wish it was better run in general.
I have witnessed many people from public schools that are far from qualified for a good job because they didn't get anything near a good education. There are many exceptions to this, but most of the cases I know of, where it's a public elementary or high school that the person went to, I find it to be true.
I went to public elementary school, public high school and (horrors!) a state university. Do you have anything to say about my qualifications?
Your complaint about public school sounds like a bit of sour grapes to me. In fact, if I were apt to engage in the type of faulty analysis you've applied to public schools, and if I were very mean, I might speculate that home schooled types are likely to be religious nuts who aren't qualified for anything in the real world because their parents taught them that the world is flat and that cavemen rode dinosaurs.
I have witnessed many people from public schools that are far from qualified for a good job because they didn't get anything near a good education. There are many exceptions to this, but most of the cases I know of, where it's a public elementary or high school that the person went to, I find it to be true.
I went to public elementary school, public high school and (horrors!) a state university. Do you have anything to say about my qualifications?
Your complaint about public school sounds like a bit of sour grapes to me. In fact, if I were apt to engage in the type of faulty analysis you've applied to public schools, and if I were very mean, I might speculate that home schooled types are likely to be religious nuts who aren't qualified for anything in the real world because their parents taught them that the world is flat and that cavemen rode dinosaurs.
The unfortunate fact of the matter is that the majority of homeschoolers do fall into that category. As I said in my first post, in reality, it all depends on the student and the teacher. There are some public schools that are as good as the best private schools, and some private schools that are complete crap. Homeschooling is all about a collaboration between parent and kid (which is extremely hard to keep up), unless the parent is rich enough to get private tutors for everything, but even that isn't the right way for everyone to learn. I went to public school up to 4th grade, and since then I've been homeschooling. I prefer homeschooling, but I live in NYC where I'm going to get a lot of interaction with people, so I don't need the hundreds of kids around me at school to learn how to socialize, and my mother happens to be a great teacher, which I am very grateful for, so I know that no one except Jesus rode on dinosaurs. I am one of the good examples of homeschooling, you are one of the good examples of public schooling. My person preference is still homeschool.
Here is an article from today's Washington Post that strongly reminds me of my experience teaching at a Washington, D.C. charter school. The kids in my class talked and acted like my class was a cross between study hall and cafeteria. They would walk in at all times, talk loudly enough to keep anyone else from hearing anything, get up and visit people across the room, and actually get into fights. You can't communicate with all that in the background.
The kids in my class at the private military school where I taught right after college were much more quiet and disciplined. However, they were less able to do meaningful work than the public school kids, mostly because they were all strung out rehab cases.
Joe, please realize that not all charter schools are like that. I attend a charter school in Minnesota with about 100 students. We have the best standardized test scores in the state (for all those useless things tell you, I just need an objective measurement) We got this way by bringing kids in early, 6th grade, and giving them math courses years ahead of any public school in the district. But despite of our accelerated learning, and the remedial programs we have implemented, many students are gone by the 9th grade due to failing in their math courses.
The kids that that transfer to a normal high school are by no means unintelligent, it is extremely common for a D and F student from our school to receive A's and B's at a regular school. We just weed out the best of the best, and let the benefits help those who cannot keep up.
I think that this kind of system should be adopted more often. Even if you cannot do the calculus or physics, you should at least absorb some of it before you go back to the normal algebra courses. The "one size fits all" way of teaching in the public school system does not benefit the smart student, it just follows the curve of the average people. If we could at least make an attempt of putting actual knowledge in kid's brains, the schools would be a whole lot better.
Also, the scene you described in the Washington school is not uncommon, kids simply are not engaged by the knowledge presented by teachers. If you put people in a social environment, and expect them to listen to the monotone of a teacher instead of hanging out with their friends, nothing will get done. Apathy will run rampant in the classroom if your only way of measuring the gains of a student is through a standardized bubble-filling exercise.
I realize that my situation is not the norm, but I wish it was.
Well, if there is one thing I could say about public schools it's that, it may not prepare you educationally speaking, but it will definitely prepare you for the worst man kind has to offer.
Private schools seem to be on top of education a lot more these days, but I guess it depends on which private school a person attends and how much money their parents are willing to dish out for the their child's education.
My opinion is most likely tainted since public education in Hawaii is one of the lowest in the nation, at least last time I checked.
I am honestly saddened by the execution of "No Child Left Behind" as I believe that the concept has merit. Unfortunately, due to the dearth of funding and inadequate resources (including decent teachers), there is no plausible way in which to get a reasonably positive outcome from this act. When I was in school (oh so many years ago), classes were still divided into remedial, regular, and advanced. This included both elementary and high school. I believe that this allows for more reasonable competition in classes, which I think is a crucial motivational factor. If all of the kids are lumped into one class, the slower learners may feel inadequate and give up, the advanced learners feel superior and bored, and the normal learners get to feel both superior and inferior at the same time, depending on which side they want to ridicule. I don't believe that this sort of environment is fair for anyone and is not conducive to learning.
I think the best part of going to a school that had separated classes was that each class had a smaller number of children learning at a rate that was reasonable for that group. My high school had the largest population of students in the city, more than 4000 students. My graduating class started out at more than 1000 and ended up with just over 900 graduating. This extremely large population allowed me to find all the different niche groups to hang out with. There was more than one jock, popular, nerd, geek, freak, dork, or slacker group so that there wasn't one predominate "ruling class". There was always somewhere to belong and I was always able to reinvent/improve myself whenever I wanted. I think that is probably more important to a person's well being and social identity than any amount of classroom equality. I think being able to be comfortable with myself and my quirks is one of the best things that I took away from school. It makes me sad that so many of my friends who grew up in small towns hated school so much. They never had an opportunity to get away from who they were (e.g. little jimmy pee-pants from kindergarten).
Well, that was an awfully long post for what essentially amounted to my opinion rather than an argument for public school. Enjoy!
I was home schooled through high school because in all my years of school before I was picked on for being a geek. Let me just say that if I could do it all again I would go to public school, no doubts about it. You miss the people. You miss friends. You miss Everything when you're being home schooled. It is the worst possible thing for teenager to go through short of a death or major bodily injury. Even some major bodily injury would be better than home schooling. I would be fine having to wear casts on both legs and have to go about in a wheel chair for a year if I was in a public high school. Screw peer pressure, screw everything else; Being with people is what matters!
I went to a great private school in Australia. Sure, it was Anglican, but we had very little religious behaviour forced upon us. We only went to the chapel once every fortnight, and school assemblies were not at all heavily religious (though there was of course the obligatory couple of prayers).
While I wouldn't have had it any other way, I would certainly have much preferred a public school to homeschooling.
Also, I agree that it is essential that more intelligent students should be given higher-level material.
I'm going to a great public school in Australia. Yay. My only gripe is that it's poor as hell, that our textbooks are falling apart, and for some reason our school decided to buy smart-boards as learning aids. I mean, really....?
In Australia we have selective high schools, where smarts kids who do a test can get into them. I go to one. My list of preferences for high school go like this: 1. Selective high school 2. Private school 3. Public school. 4. Homeschooling.
And uniforms have no sway on me, because public school kids have to wear them too, here.
I'm going to a great public school in Australia. Yay. My only gripe is that it's poor as hell, that our textbooks are falling apart, and for some reason our school decided to buy smart-boards as learning aids. I mean, really....?
In New South Wales, Australia (also Victoria) we have selective high schools, where smarts kids who do a test can get into them. I go to one. My list of preferences for high school go like this:< 1. Selective high school 2. Private school 3. Public school. 4. Homeschooling.
And uniforms have no sway on me, because public school kids have to wear them too, here.
Were I in NSW, a selective high school would've been nice. Being in Queensland I got a scholarship for a private school though.
I was home schooled through high school because in all my years of school before I was picked on for being a geek. Let me just say that if I could do it all again I would go to public school, no doubts about it. You miss the people. You miss friends. You miss Everything when you're being home schooled. It is the worst possible thing for teenager to go through short of a death or major bodily injury. Even some major bodily injury would be better than home schooling. I would be fine having to wear casts on both legs and have to go about in a wheel chair for a year if I was in a public high school. Screw peer pressure, screw everything else; Being with people is what matters!
Where did you homeschool? I've heard of many people with similar problems of the lack of socialization, but I never seemed to suffer from that. Neither did my fellow homeschooled friends.
I was home schooled through high school because in all my years of school before I was picked on for being a geek. Let me just say that if I could do it all again I would go to public school, no doubts about it. You miss the people. You miss friends. You miss Everything when you're being home schooled. It is the worst possible thing for teenager to go through short of a death or major bodily injury. Even some major bodily injury would be better than home schooling. I would be fine having to wear casts on both legs and have to go about in a wheel chair for a year if I was in a public high school. Screw peer pressure, screw everything else; Being with people is what matters!
I had a similar experience in some regards. I was actually doing fine in school, but my mom pulled me out about 5 weeks into 7th grade because "God told her to". I spent 2 years in home school, just learning out of the books, because my mom has no kind of education herself. That part was fine, really -- I did excellently on all of the state tests I had to take. The part that killed me was only getting to see kids my age for a few hours, every two weeks. I was a pretty sociable guy before home school, but it completely annihilated my social skills. I went back to public school for high school, and I was a wreck. Couldn't talk to anyone. I gradually got better, but it was slow going. It wasn't until a couple years after high school that I felt like the damage had been repaired, and I was able to be a completely normal, functioning, social person again.
I understand this isn't representative of everyone's home school experience, but it's definitely a way that it can go.
In Australia for high school private is the only way to go, most anyone who can goes to private and as such you create a much better atmosphere for learning but removing those who wish not to pay for the extra education. now by no means am i saying that private school is the only way to go nor am i saying that public school make you shit, due top the fact that most entrepreneurs have never had education past grade 12 if that. and private schools have their fair share of problems the year i graduated from year 12 the elite of elite schools (which i unfortunately did not go to) had multiple (publicly known) suicide attempts while my private school had none. to me it seams that the sweet spot is to be in the second or third best private school down the list as opposed to the top or bottom. that way you will have a better education due to a more willing environment but still have the mix of social backgrounds.
In Australia for high school private is the only way to go
now by no means am i saying that private school is the only way to go
to me it seams that the sweet spot is to be in the second or third best private school down the list as opposed to the top or bottom. that way you will have a better education due to a more willing environment but still have the mix of social backgrounds.
Here in Australia it would take a pretty shit school to screw with your ability to get into university. Still, you do want to get a great environment in which to learn, and so a school must be chosen wisely. I went to a private high school that wasn't extremely high up on the scale here in Brisbane, but still rather solid, and I loved it. I'd say I wasn't given enough opportunities to get a deeper level of learning, but again, it doesn't really matter since I'm in university now... So, the school I went to was, while not a necessity, still a very positive influence on my eduaction.
I don't like public schools because of the Teachers Union. A union is designed to benefit the members, not the company that hires its members. Unless a teacher starts raping kids you can't fire them. The only thing teachers are graded on is attendance (unless that has recently changed).
Where are you getting this information? Please cite your sources.
Comments
First: Not everyone has parents that have the time, resources, or motivation to home school. Similarly, not everyone has the money to go to private school. Even if these people could get scholarships, some of them live in areas where there ARE no private schools. I was one of these. If it wasn't for public school, I would have been severely handicapped. I didn't care about the state of public school before I started going to school, other than being grateful that I had the opportunity to have more schooling than my grandfather, who couldn't finish the first grade for lack of a teacher and a school.
Second: Welcome to the world. Most things in it have checkered pasts. Saying you don't like public school because of some condition you think existed in the past is very similar to saying you don't like trees because people once used wood to burn witches. It's like saying you don't like ships because people used ships in the slave trade. It's like saying you don't like iron because people used iron to make shackles for those same slaves. It's like saying you don't like computers because the primary applications for computers in the mid twentieth century were mostly military.
If you don't like public schools for something you think they're doing badly NOW, then you might have a point. Until you can make such a point, you should refrain from speculating about the unfortunate genesis of public schools. It makes absolutely no difference now.
I also do not like the public schools because they are going from teaching knowledge to teaching how to pass a standardized test.
Your complaint about public school sounds like a bit of sour grapes to me. In fact, if I were apt to engage in the type of faulty analysis you've applied to public schools, and if I were very mean, I might speculate that home schooled types are likely to be religious nuts who aren't qualified for anything in the real world because their parents taught them that the world is flat and that cavemen rode dinosaurs.
The kids in my class at the private military school where I taught right after college were much more quiet and disciplined. However, they were less able to do meaningful work than the public school kids, mostly because they were all strung out rehab cases.
The kids that that transfer to a normal high school are by no means unintelligent, it is extremely common for a D and F student from our school to receive A's and B's at a regular school. We just weed out the best of the best, and let the benefits help those who cannot keep up.
I think that this kind of system should be adopted more often. Even if you cannot do the calculus or physics, you should at least absorb some of it before you go back to the normal algebra courses. The "one size fits all" way of teaching in the public school system does not benefit the smart student, it just follows the curve of the average people. If we could at least make an attempt of putting actual knowledge in kid's brains, the schools would be a whole lot better.
Also, the scene you described in the Washington school is not uncommon, kids simply are not engaged by the knowledge presented by teachers. If you put people in a social environment, and expect them to listen to the monotone of a teacher instead of hanging out with their friends, nothing will get done. Apathy will run rampant in the classroom if your only way of measuring the gains of a student is through a standardized bubble-filling exercise.
I realize that my situation is not the norm, but I wish it was.
Private schools seem to be on top of education a lot more these days, but I guess it depends on which private school a person attends and how much money their parents are willing to dish out for the their child's education.
My opinion is most likely tainted since public education in Hawaii is one of the lowest in the nation, at least last time I checked.
I think the best part of going to a school that had separated classes was that each class had a smaller number of children learning at a rate that was reasonable for that group. My high school had the largest population of students in the city, more than 4000 students. My graduating class started out at more than 1000 and ended up with just over 900 graduating. This extremely large population allowed me to find all the different niche groups to hang out with. There was more than one jock, popular, nerd, geek, freak, dork, or slacker group so that there wasn't one predominate "ruling class". There was always somewhere to belong and I was always able to reinvent/improve myself whenever I wanted. I think that is probably more important to a person's well being and social identity than any amount of classroom equality. I think being able to be comfortable with myself and my quirks is one of the best things that I took away from school. It makes me sad that so many of my friends who grew up in small towns hated school so much. They never had an opportunity to get away from who they were (e.g. little jimmy pee-pants from kindergarten).
Well, that was an awfully long post for what essentially amounted to my opinion rather than an argument for public school. Enjoy!
While I wouldn't have had it any other way, I would certainly have much preferred a public school to homeschooling.
Also, I agree that it is essential that more intelligent students should be given higher-level material.
In Australia we have selective high schools, where smarts kids who do a test can get into them. I go to one. My list of preferences for high school go like this:
1. Selective high school
2. Private school
3. Public school.
4. Homeschooling.
And uniforms have no sway on me, because public school kids have to wear them too, here.
I understand this isn't representative of everyone's home school experience, but it's definitely a way that it can go.
I went to a private high school that wasn't extremely high up on the scale here in Brisbane, but still rather solid, and I loved it. I'd say I wasn't given enough opportunities to get a deeper level of learning, but again, it doesn't really matter since I'm in university now...
So, the school I went to was, while not a necessity, still a very positive influence on my eduaction.