People gotta be like me and go toDCBS. Pre-order that shit and get a huge discount.
I used to buy most of my comics from Amazon, but now, I buy most of my comics from a store because I feel it's important to support a place where my friends and I can go and game. Having a physical location where I can check out games, get recommendations, meet other people, and most importantly actually play, is worth the extra money I pay. For very expensive things, like Absolute editions or Marvel Omnibuses, I buy online still. I am paying for the community the store fosters and the atmosphere it has.
I've been using InStockTrades, but I haven't started with DCBS yet. Do they charge you when you preorder, or when your order ships?
They don't charge you the minute you put your order in, but you do pay for everything you order, even if it doesn't ship. Let's say I put in an order for $100 of stuff. $50 of it will be shipping two months from now, the rest will ship three months from now. I get charged all $100 at once before anything gets mailed to me. If an item is canceled, and will never ship, you get credit. Also, sometimes I order something, and even if it ships to the world, it never gets delivered to me for some reason. In those cases I just e-mail them, and then remove it from my list and give me credit.
I used to buy most of my comics from Amazon, but now, I buy most of my comics from a store because I feel it's important to support a place where my friends and I can go and game. Having a physical location where I can check out games, get recommendations, meet other people, and most importantly actually play, is worth the extra money I pay. For very expensive things, like Absolute editions or Marvel Omnibuses, I buy online still. I am paying for the community the store fosters and the atmosphere it has.
You need to recognize what a store offers you that the best online ordering sites (DCBS and InStockTrades) do not, which is that in almost any CBS or FLGS, you'll find piles of used and unusual stuff probably at rock bottom prices, as is sort of geek tradition, and you can get that right away, whereas the new stuff is always a better deal online, even if you have to wait.
Look at it this way: New copies of Berserk, which I'm about to start reading, run you $15 in most bookstores and comic shops. That's outrageous, and I will ALWAYS choose the $7 IST copy instead. However, my local comic book shop carries all sorts of used figures and gaming stuff at rock-bottom prices, so I'm happy to go there. The whole "brick-n-mortar vs. online" is a total false dichotomy.
I used to buy most of my comics from Amazon, but now, I buy most of my comics from a store because I feel it's important to support a place where my friends and I can go and game. Having a physical location where I can check out games, get recommendations, meet other people, and most importantly actually play, is worth the extra money I pay. For very expensive things, like Absolute editions or Marvel Omnibuses, I buy online still. I am paying for the community the store fosters and the atmosphere it has.
You can hang at the store and not buy anything. You can also become friends with people at the store, and hang out with them at places other than the store so you don't feel guilty going into a store and not buying anything.
used figures and gaming stuff at rock-bottom prices, so I'm happy to go there. The whole "brick-n-mortar vs. online" is a total false dichotomy.
Amazon has all that. They have more used stuff on sale than anybody. The difference is that the old used junk in the comic store is in your face, where you will see it and think about it. On Amazon you actively have to search for it. Not having impulse purchases in my face I think is a benefit of going online.
The whole "brick-n-mortar vs. online" is a total false dichotomy.
Indeed. I use the former as a free showroom for the latter, but I never buy anything from the former unless they can beat the prices of the latter. It's really a monochotomy. =P
Indeed. I use the former as a free showroom for the latter, but I never buy anything from the former unless they can beat the prices of the latter. It's really a monochotomy. =P
Immediate need sometimes wins as well. There are also some cases where the brick 'n mortar store has prices that are only very slightly higher than online prices, and thus the convenience of brick 'n mortar wins out.
You can hang at the store and not buy anything. You can also become friends with people at the store, and hang out with them at places other than the store so you don't feel guilty going into a store and not buying anything.
Yes, you can, but that's not the point. He's looking to financially support the establishment that provides convenient gaming space. That's a bit of a different beast. It's sort of like investing in the community. I pay a premium to get some things at my local homebrew store, but I patronize them on occasion because they are convenient, and because I want that establishment to succeed. It's the same thing.
I used to buy most of my comics from Amazon, but now, I buy most of my comics from a store because I feel it's important to support a place where my friends and I can go and game. Having a physical location where I can check out games, get recommendations, meet other people, and most importantly actually play, is worth the extra money I pay. For very expensive things, like Absolute editions or Marvel Omnibuses, I buy online still. I am paying for the community the store fosters and the atmosphere it has.
You can hang at the store and not buy anything. You can also become friends with people at the store, and hang out with them at places other than the store so you don't feel guilty going into a store and not buying anything.
If enough people just hung out at the store and didn't buy anything, it would go out of business. If it went out of business, we would be hard-pressed to find another place to game that could accommodate the 5-10 people we have show up at our weekly game night.
Being able to physically hold a box and look at it, being able to demo copies of games before buying, being able to go to a centralized location where I can meet other people so we can play all kinds of different games becomes much harder if the store goes out of business.
Amazon has all that. They have more used stuff on sale than anybody.
The $4 shipping on just about everything makes a lot of Amazon's really cheap used stuff a lot less cheap. Though I have noticed that recently, they've started selling used stuff that's fulfilled by Amazon themselves, rather than random dealers, and so it's eligible for super-saver shipping or Prime. THAT'S nice -- I just got a nice translated Band Dessinee comic, full size, hardcover and everything, for $3 out the door.
Being able to physically hold a box and look at it, being able to demo copies of games before buying, being able to go to a centralized location where I can meet other people so we can play all kinds of different games becomes much harder if the store goes out of business.
But at the same time, the business isn't viable without the charity of people like you willingly and knowingly paying higher prices. This business model, regardless of good intentions, can not be sustained going forward, and eventually will collapse. You can't rely on it for too much longer. I actually foresee gaming stores closing in the next several years (nevermind book stores).
f it went out of business, we would be hard-pressed to find another place to game that could accommodate the 5-10 people we have show up at our weekly game night.
NerdNYC handles this by having made a deal with a non-game-store with alternate revenue streams (a coffee/wine bar in this case) for space in return for the implicit food sales and goodwill. All the benefits of a game store with none of the high prices or funk. You could easily make a similar arrangement with a local coffee shop I'd imagine. 5-10 person gathering places are trivial to find. It's the 20-30 person and up spaces that are problematic.
I still prefer to give my money to people I've made relationships with. Like the Comic book store that hosts my monthly anime club. They are nice people who know a lot about comics. They are also experimenting with things like book clubs and buy 4 Graphic novels get one free sort of deals. But I'm willing to pay a bit more for comics to be able to look through them first and be in a atmosphere filled with graphic novels.
I'm curious with regard to Amazon's payment system. When I buy something used, does Amazon charge me and then pass the money onto the merchant, or do they give the merchant my information so I can be charged? I really like the idea of the former, and I really dislike the idea of the latter.
I'm curious with regard to Amazon's payment system. When I buy something used, does Amazon charge me and then pass the money onto the merchant, or do they give the merchant my information so I can be charged? I really like the idea of the former, and I really dislike the idea of the latter.
Considering a friend of mine who certainly didn't have the ability to process credit cards used to sell books on Amazon, I'm fairly certain it's the former. Reading up on how to sell on Amazon will probably tell you everything you need to know.
It's the 20-30 person and up spaces that are problematic.
Well, here's the thing: there's a market for places that can host 20 - 30 nerds in one spot and allow them to play their games. Coffee shops are not always conducive to some types of gaming (Warhammer springs immediately to mind), and aside from that, some games are readily interrupted by non-geek traffic. There's no way I can throw 2500 points of Blood Angels against an equally-sized Tyranid army in some random coffee shop; the tables aren't big enough and we take up far more floor space than we're worth. A lot of those aforementioned shops calculate their costs by the square foot; you can fit X coffee-drinking customers into Y square feet. If you start suddenly taking up 8 times your allotted space for 4 hours in one go, the shop is going to be less inclined to let you in, because you actually hurt business. This may be somewhat obviated in a place like New York City, but then again, the intense amount of competition means that customers also have essentially infinite choice, and they may well elect to patronize the place that doesn't involve dice rolling and yelling.
Of course, hosting in a traditionally non-geek location has the added benefit of advertising these games to people who may have otherwise not heard of them.
I don't know that most gaming stores rely on charity so much as laziness and instant gratification. If you own a comic book store or gaming store, it makes sense for you to try to host lots of gamers, because you'll pack people in, and then you have a captive market. Even though many gamers realize that you can order stuff online for less money, many will be caught up the convenience factor. Forcing people into impulse buy situations works. In this case, it's actually mutually beneficial, because the gamers get their massive table space and the store gets money. And you also have to realize that the places we're talking about don't just host 5 - 10 people; they can host multiple groups of 5 - 10 people. That is very much a different beast.
The store I go to actually has very little, to no funk so that's not a problem. Also, because the owner of the store actually has another business, he runs a small gaming company called Eden Studios that puts out the Buffy rpg and All Flesh Must Be Eaten rpg, he has an alternate revenue stream.
I agree with you that most gaming stores will probably go out of business as more and more people buy online. But, if you can offer the customer services that online ones can't or won't, people will be willing to pay higher prices. Instead of paying a coffee shop for food, the extra money I spend is almost like a fee I'm willing to pay continue playing at the store.
There are games that I've played that I was interested in, that it turned out I didn't like so that saved me money. There are other games that I would never have heard of, if not for the owner of the store telling me about it, that I love. As great as online stores are, they can't completely replace friendly, professional, and knowledgeable salespeople.
Rym, you live in NYC. I live in Albany. People are a lot more spread out and there isn't the public transportation system like there is where you are. Given the choice between driving 45+ minutes to someone's house and playing in his dank, poorly lit basement, or spending a couple extra bucks to drive 10 minutes to a clean, nice gaming store is a wash in my mind. What I save in gas, I spend on games.
NerdNYC handles this by having made a deal with a non-game-store with alternate revenue streams (a coffee/wine bar in this case) for space in return for the implicit food sales and goodwill. All the benefits of a game store with none of the high prices or funk. You could easily make a similar arrangement with a local coffee shop I'd imagine. 5-10 person gathering places are trivial to find. It's the 20-30 person and up spaces that are problematic.
This works very well for the once-per-month board game nights. A coffee shop provides free space with the hope that you drink or eat something while you are there. What is really interesting though when looking at NerdNYC is the quarterly "Recess" events, which are the all day gaming extravaganzas that utilize rented studio space, and therefore cost $20 to get in. If all of the game stores shut down, I could see something like this becoming more common. Gamers pooling together the money that they would have been paying in a premium to support the FLGS or comic shop, and using it to rent some temporary space.
So the argument is: would it be better to pay a premium when purchasing geeky products in order to support a cool store, or shave the cost of my purchases and then have to kick in some cash when it comes time to find a space to meet? Having an awesome store to hang out in is the ideal situation. I picture it like a nerdy "Cheers". However, I feel there is no guarantee that mine and my friends' purchases would guarantee the success of the business, so I would rather take the practical route and just find my own space.
What is really interesting though when looking at NerdNYC is the quarterly "Recess" events, which are the all day gaming extravaganzas that utilize rented studio space, and therefore cost $20 to get in. If all of the game stores shut down, I could see something like this becoming more common. Gamers pooling together the money that they would have been paying in a premium to support the FLGS or comic shop, and using it to rent some temporary space.
Before I fell ill and stopped posting much on the forum, that was what I was driving toward. The one thing geeks and nerds will always need, which cannot be made fully available online (until we have proper VR, at least) is physical space.
The future is not game stores with a tenuous and fragile revenue stream based entirely on charity, but gaming clubs and rented spaces. Imagine if your local game store, rather than selling its games, had them available in a library for your use. $15 gets you access for several hours. $30 (shared among your friends, obviously) gets you a dedicated table. Maybe $50 gets you a private room all night. Get rid of the overhead of the "store" and just offer the actual service you all seem to care about.
Before I fell ill and stopped posting much on the forum, that was what I was driving toward. The one thing geeks and nerds will always need, which cannot be made fully available online (until we have proper VR, at least) is physical space.
The future is not game stores with a tenuous and fragile revenue stream based entirely on charity, but gaming clubs and rented spaces. Imagine if your local game store, rather than selling its games, had them available in a library for your use. $15 gets you access for several hours. $30 (shared among your friends, obviously) gets you a dedicated table. Maybe $50 gets you a private room all night. Get rid of the overhead of the "store" and just offer the actual service you all seem to care about.
I agree that this would be a good solution in theory, but I would think that this is an even more tenuous revenue stream than an actual gaming store. Instead of just selling the games outright, the owner or someone has to buy all these games on the hopes that people will want to play them. Or what happens if the game gets damaged or a piece is lost? Who owns the game? Having to pay $50 or even $30 for a private room or a table becomes even more expensive than buying games at their MSRP when you're playing multiple nights a week. I go to my store at least twice a week, and sometimes three to four times a week. Using your pricing method, even if it is just speculation, would have me paying $60 to $120 a week. It would be much cheaper for me to just go to a gaming store with free tables and buy my games there.
The future is not game stores with a tenuous and fragile revenue stream based entirely on charity, but gaming clubs and rented spaces. Imagine if your local game store, rather than selling its games, had them available in a library for your use. $15 gets you access for several hours. $30 (shared among your friends, obviously) gets you a dedicated table. Maybe $50 gets you a private room all night. Get rid of the overhead of the "store" and just offer the actual service you all seem to care about.
That's certainly one possibility, but I still think you're overlooking the revenue stream that can be generated by a captive market. Sure, gaming and comic stores might be more expensive than purchasing online, but if the prices are only somewhat more expensive, many gamers would still be inclined to pay the inflated price for the convenience. It's the impulse buy mechanism, and it works quite well. If you're already there, and you've been meaning to buy that shiny new gaming book, and it's right there, many people will be inclined to simply buy it right then.
I see fewer gaming stores in the future, but they'll never go away. If you put people in a given market into a space, it only makes sense to also sell products targeted at that market in that same space. Think about a Magic tournament; people play their game, and then hop over to the conveniently placed display of Magic cards and plunk down a lot of money. That's how these stores thrive.
I think the thing that's throwing you is that you are no longer in the demographic that needs a gaming store. You have no reason to patronize one these days.
Having to pay $50 or even $30 for a private room or a table becomes even more expensive than buying games at their MSRP when you're playing multiple nights a week.
Split among your players? It's cheaper than lunch. I'd probably pay $100 or so a month for a membership to a place like this. Maybe more. Also, remember that I pulled these numbers out of my arse. I imagine outside of the City, the prices would be ludicrously cheap and still make more money than game sales (which have very poor margins for most retailers).
You're overlooking several additional factors:
1. The club could still sell games if they wanted, and probably make a killing renting them. It just wouldn't be a primarily revenue stream. 2. Board games are extremely durable. The cost of replacements and repairs over time would trivially be mitigated by selling "incomplete" games for cheap. 3. Existing game stores have large stock already. No initial investment, and few worthwhile new games come out each year. 4. Space will, unlike most other things, actually get cheaper as time goes on and retail outlets become less and less viable in many places.
It would be much cheaper for me to just go to a gaming store with free tables and buy my games there.
Maybe you shouldn't be buying so many games, then. Besides, if you need a place like this to play your games (to avoid playing in other peoples' faraway basements, why do you need to own the games in the first place?
It would be much cheaper for me to just go to a gaming store with free tables and buy my games there.
My point is that this won't last. Gaming stores in most of the country barely break even as it is with few exceptions.
I think the thing that's throwing you is that you are no longer in the demographic that needs a gaming store. You have no reason to patronize one these days.
I have great need of a place to hang out in public and play games. The only thing I don't have a need for is anything these places sell. When I hang out in game stores, I just take up space and provide nothing in return. If I see a game I like, it'll be delivered to by door two days later cheaply.
I really, really want the public spaces for gaming. I do still need it. I'm in that demographic, as are most gamers. The only demographic I'm not in anymore is being willing to buy anything in person if I can get it cheaper online under just about any circumstances. I even buy my groceries online (cheaper than the store, delivered INTO MY FRIDGE by porters).
I need everything gaming stores have to offer except their high prices.
I need everything gaming stores have to offer except their high prices.
And the games they tend to offer. When was the last time you set foot in a gaming store? The large majority of the games sold in today's gaming stores are of the type that require frequent purchases of new stuff - D&D; 4th ed keeps coming out with new books, dice, sets of miniatures; Magic is still the most popular TCG out there; and there are a slew of miniatures-based wargames that release new units every couple of months.
By and large, the games you play these days are one-time purchases, or games for whom expansions are released very infrequently. As such, you don't really need to keep buying stuff to stay current in your game. Thus, you don't need the store aspect at all, physical or virtual.
By stocking those games that require frequent purchases, and providing ample space in which to play those games, gaming stores attract a specific demographic: the kid with lots of disposable income. They go to the store, hang out with their friends, play in their tournaments, and buy the newest shiny thing. Two weeks later, they do it all over again, because their game just got another new thing.
You only need to buy T&E; once, but WotC releases a brand new set of Magic every 3 months. No, you are not in the gaming store demographic any longer.
Does not exist. Kids are broke. Yes, I'll grant you that the money they do have gets spent on things like CCGs or video games. But almost all kids have no moneys.
Their parents sure do. And even then, if enough kids spend all of their pittance on CCG's (like we all did), a gaming store will be able to support itself.
And even then, if enough kids spend all of their pittance on CCG's (like we all did), a gaming store will be able to support itself.
As a kid? I bought my magic cards discount in the mail, including my boosters. I'd also get them at the local supermarket if they were on sale. I went to game stores to ogle the Black Lotuses and play with people, but I rarely bought cards from them.
This is also a well that will dry up someday, especially as savvy parents start buying things online more and more. Remember, the generation that is used to Amazon providing 90% of their consumer goods by and large hasn't bred yet. What will happen when the average parent knows he can get his kids games online at reduced cost and increased convenience?
Yeah. Back in my day I had to buy boosters in the mall, and it wasn't from a game store. In the future, mommy will buy a whole box of boosters for $50.
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Look at it this way: New copies of Berserk, which I'm about to start reading, run you $15 in most bookstores and comic shops. That's outrageous, and I will ALWAYS choose the $7 IST copy instead. However, my local comic book shop carries all sorts of used figures and gaming stuff at rock-bottom prices, so I'm happy to go there. The whole "brick-n-mortar vs. online" is a total false dichotomy.
Being able to physically hold a box and look at it, being able to demo copies of games before buying, being able to go to a centralized location where I can meet other people so we can play all kinds of different games becomes much harder if the store goes out of business.
Of course, hosting in a traditionally non-geek location has the added benefit of advertising these games to people who may have otherwise not heard of them.
I don't know that most gaming stores rely on charity so much as laziness and instant gratification. If you own a comic book store or gaming store, it makes sense for you to try to host lots of gamers, because you'll pack people in, and then you have a captive market. Even though many gamers realize that you can order stuff online for less money, many will be caught up the convenience factor. Forcing people into impulse buy situations works. In this case, it's actually mutually beneficial, because the gamers get their massive table space and the store gets money. And you also have to realize that the places we're talking about don't just host 5 - 10 people; they can host multiple groups of 5 - 10 people. That is very much a different beast.
I agree with you that most gaming stores will probably go out of business as more and more people buy online. But, if you can offer the customer services that online ones can't or won't, people will be willing to pay higher prices. Instead of paying a coffee shop for food, the extra money I spend is almost like a fee I'm willing to pay continue playing at the store.
There are games that I've played that I was interested in, that it turned out I didn't like so that saved me money. There are other games that I would never have heard of, if not for the owner of the store telling me about it, that I love. As great as online stores are, they can't completely replace friendly, professional, and knowledgeable salespeople.
Rym, you live in NYC. I live in Albany. People are a lot more spread out and there isn't the public transportation system like there is where you are. Given the choice between driving 45+ minutes to someone's house and playing in his dank, poorly lit basement, or spending a couple extra bucks to drive 10 minutes to a clean, nice gaming store is a wash in my mind. What I save in gas, I spend on games.
So the argument is: would it be better to pay a premium when purchasing geeky products in order to support a cool store, or shave the cost of my purchases and then have to kick in some cash when it comes time to find a space to meet? Having an awesome store to hang out in is the ideal situation. I picture it like a nerdy "Cheers". However, I feel there is no guarantee that mine and my friends' purchases would guarantee the success of the business, so I would rather take the practical route and just find my own space.
The future is not game stores with a tenuous and fragile revenue stream based entirely on charity, but gaming clubs and rented spaces. Imagine if your local game store, rather than selling its games, had them available in a library for your use. $15 gets you access for several hours. $30 (shared among your friends, obviously) gets you a dedicated table. Maybe $50 gets you a private room all night. Get rid of the overhead of the "store" and just offer the actual service you all seem to care about.
I see fewer gaming stores in the future, but they'll never go away. If you put people in a given market into a space, it only makes sense to also sell products targeted at that market in that same space. Think about a Magic tournament; people play their game, and then hop over to the conveniently placed display of Magic cards and plunk down a lot of money. That's how these stores thrive.
I think the thing that's throwing you is that you are no longer in the demographic that needs a gaming store. You have no reason to patronize one these days.
You're overlooking several additional factors:
1. The club could still sell games if they wanted, and probably make a killing renting them. It just wouldn't be a primarily revenue stream.
2. Board games are extremely durable. The cost of replacements and repairs over time would trivially be mitigated by selling "incomplete" games for cheap.
3. Existing game stores have large stock already. No initial investment, and few worthwhile new games come out each year.
4. Space will, unlike most other things, actually get cheaper as time goes on and retail outlets become less and less viable in many places. Maybe you shouldn't be buying so many games, then. Besides,
if you need a place like this to play your games (to avoid playing in other peoples' faraway basements, why do you need to own the games in the first place? My point is that this won't last. Gaming stores in most of the country barely break even as it is with few exceptions.
I really, really want the public spaces for gaming. I do still need it. I'm in that demographic, as are most gamers. The only demographic I'm not in anymore is being willing to buy anything in person if I can get it cheaper online under just about any circumstances. I even buy my groceries online (cheaper than the store, delivered INTO MY FRIDGE by porters).
I need everything gaming stores have to offer except their high prices.
By and large, the games you play these days are one-time purchases, or games for whom expansions are released very infrequently. As such, you don't really need to keep buying stuff to stay current in your game. Thus, you don't need the store aspect at all, physical or virtual.
By stocking those games that require frequent purchases, and providing ample space in which to play those games, gaming stores attract a specific demographic: the kid with lots of disposable income. They go to the store, hang out with their friends, play in their tournaments, and buy the newest shiny thing. Two weeks later, they do it all over again, because their game just got another new thing.
You only need to buy T&E; once, but WotC releases a brand new set of Magic every 3 months. No, you are not in the gaming store demographic any longer.
This is also a well that will dry up someday, especially as savvy parents start buying things online more and more. Remember, the generation that is used to Amazon providing 90% of their consumer goods by and large hasn't bred yet. What will happen when the average parent knows he can get his kids games online at reduced cost and increased convenience?