"Downloading Anime", a discussion on Copyright Laws and Licensing

CHOIS CHOIS CHOIS

Currently, I have been having a long argument with my parents about downloading fan subbed Anime. My parents make the claim that I'm violating all copyright and licensing laws. Then I told them that it is not illegal to download anime if you get it before the US licenses is in effect.
But then my parents go on about International Copyright Laws.

Can anyone help me out here, they want an official document or credible source that says whether or not it is illegal.

Rym

they want an official document or credible source that says whether or not it is illegal.

They'll find no such thing.

It is most certainly technically illegal to distribute unlicensed fansubs. The grey area concerns whether or not the rightful owners of the properties have the ability to take action against you, and it is not a forgone conclusion that they do.

Apreche

Copyright infringement of this variety is not a criminal matter, it's a civil one. What does this mean? Let's give an example.

Rym is a musician. I buy his CD, copy it and sell the copies on the street corner. I have very much infringed upon Rym's copyright. However, police can't arrest me. Instead, it is up to Rym to sue me. If he doesn't sue me, then I get away with illegal behavior. If he does sue me, I'll probably lose and have to pay him money.

Downloading fansubs is most definitely illegal. If the Japanese company wanted to, they could sue you. It is up to you to decide whether you will do it or not despite this law. Remember, at one point in time it was illegal for black people to sit at the front of the bus. That doesn't mean they should have obeyed the law.

Rym

If the Japanese company wanted to, they could sue you.

One factor is that it's rather difficult for a foreign company to sue a US citizen for the US distribution of a work which has no legal distribution route in the US, let alone someone merely acquiring said work.

Apreche

If the Japanese company wanted to, they could sue you.

One factor is that it's rather difficult for a foreign company to sue a US citizen for the US distribution of a work which has no legal distribution route in the US, let alone someone merely acquiring said work.

It's basically never going to happen, but it's still possible.

Jason

Lawyers, back me up: There really is no such thing as international civil law. There is only national law that is shakily recognized by friendly nations. I don't think that copyright violations are extridictable offenses, and I doubt that the US government is going to care enough about upholding it to send feds after you for watching Trigun online.

Apreche

They will get you for Trigun becase it is licensed in the US. Geneon(Pioneer) can just sue you.

Dave

Lawyers, back me up: There really is no such thing as international civil law. There is only national law that is shakily recognized by friendly nations. I don't think that copyright violations are extridictable offenses, and I doubt that the US government is going to care enough about upholding it to send feds after you for watching Trigun online.

Wrong.

The Berne Convention

Anime creators don't sue Americans because it's more trouble/money than it's worth. They are entirely able to do so legally.

Jason

I am wrong a lot lately. Must be low on Vitamin E.

Kite

Animesuki has a good answer in their FAQ

Fansubs violate copyrights
We have to admit it: the distribution of fansubs is technically a violation of copyright under the WTO TRIPS agreement. However the TRIPS agreement does not demand that distribution of copyrighted material is a criminal offence unless it is done on a commercial scale. This means it is up to the copyright holder to bring the offender to court. The copyright of unlicensed material is held by the original creator. In the case of anime this usually means the Japanese distribution company. If something is licenced, the licensee holds the copyright and thus the right to sue any copyright infringers within the area covered by the license.

Up until now fansub groups have had little to worry about legal pressure from Japan. However US companies are more likely to sue, therefore it is an additional reason for fansub groups to stop distributing a series once it gets licensed in the US.

kenjura

I say it's about time for the American anime distributors to change things. They profit from fansubs; they use them as a massive, unpaid marketing engine to determine what is popular in the US, and therefore what they want to invest enough in to license domestically. They should be out there lobbying for changes to the law, specifically to decriminalize noncommercial consumption of copyrighted content that is not licensed or marketed in the United States. After all, the point of laws are to serve the people, and no harm is done by fansubs. In fact, the original copyright holder, not to mention the American distributor, only gains by the distribution of fansubs, where otherwise they'd have gained nothing.

Dave

Every person who says "I'm not gonna buy it, I already saw it in fansubs", of which there are no shortage, would tender to contradict your statement.

You don't get to just DECIDE something is free because you want it that way. Even if it's not hurting anyone (which is a point you'd be hard pressed to argue) that's not your prerogative, it belongs solely to the rights holder.

HMTKSteve

Right now I have every fan sub episode of Nana on my iPod. Once the anime becomes available stateside I will delete these files.

I will not buy the anime if I feel it is over priced but I will NetFlix it.

Rym

Every person who says "I'm not gonna buy it, I already saw it in fansubs", of which there are no shortage, would tender to contradict your statement.

You don't get to just DECIDE something is free because you want it that way. Even if it's not hurting anyone (which is a point you'd be hard pressed to argue) that's not your prerogative, it belongs solely to the rights holder.

The main way I use fansubs is to see if a show is worth watching: I'll NEVER spend money on something sight unseen (unless Satoshi Kon directed it ^_~).

Typically, we'll watch the first several episodes of something in fansub form. If it's worthwhile, we'll Netflix it from the start once it gets released. If it's amazing, we'll watch it as it comes out in Japan (fansubs) and buy the box set later. (I wouldn't even bother with this if there were a way to pay for early translations legitimately...)

The only shows I'll watch all the way though in fansub form without buying them are shows that aren't likely to be released in the US.

Interestingly, Netflix has done more to prevent people like me from buying anime than fansubs ever could. Where I used to pick up $10-$20 DVDs of new shows, I just throw them in the queue. Where I used to buy a boxed set of a show I'd always wanted to see, I just throw it in the queue. Casual anime buying is dead to me, and I can only justify buying DVDs in two very specific circumstances.

1. Gifts for family members who don't understand Netflix.
2. Shows/movies I distinctly plan on lending to others or re-watching frequently/marathoning.
3. DVDs that cost less than $5.

Even in the third case, I'll usually only buy the first DVD of a show even at this price. If I want to share a non-spectacular show with a friend, I'll lend them this one DVD and tell them to Netflix the rest. ^_~

Erwin

I am against downloading something that it is being release readily in America. However, in special cases ,such as Saint Seiya, where the rights of it were not renew and they just stop releasing it in the middle of a saga I will help in releasing the raws of it from my Mexican releases ( it has dual audio). Now that I think about it the only way to get that show legitimately if from getting it from either ebay from a Mexican seller that sells it at 500 dollars, and not many would pay that much for that show that it is not even in English.
Another special case is "Macross Do You Remember Love?", since it is very unlikely that it would ever be release in America again (please industry prove me wrong, and make me the happiest guy alive).

HMTKSteve

Here be some good reading on this subject.

Kite

The annoying little kids who download fansubs and refuse to buy dvds.. I kinda think of them as sunk costs, you are never ever going to get a single honest cent from them in a million years and it it wasn't fansubs they'd be stealing comic book scans, game roms or some other warez. In my mind they are a non-issues and the anime companies shouldn't worry about them. Instead they should concentrate more on appealing to the honest fansub watchers somehow.. I don't know enough to come up with anything specific but some series are destined to be niche titles that will only appeal to the hardcore. So maybe they can cut costs and production time by skipping the dub and releasing quick inexpensive boxsets.