So why democrats put forth a bill that will helps fund the war in Iraq without any strings and give Bush all the support he needs. They should stop all their nonsense. I know they want a democrat in the White House in 08, but their should do what’s best for the country. Their won't but I can dream. Theirs only one Commander and Chief and the Democrats don't realize that.
Yo, troll, unless you're in the army, he ain't your commander in chief. He's the first civil servant of the country, and works for us. He's not in charge of us until he drafts us or we volunteer.
We're starting from fundamentally different places here, so I'm not sure that we can come to any kind of consensus. The Democrats won both houses of Congress because the American People are tired of more of the same with the war, and adding more troops is a wonderful mix from the bottles of "More of the Same" and "Too Little, Too Late." They got a bill through both houses, but they don't have enough of a margin to override a veto. The majority of the country as represented by our legislative branch wants out, but not a large enough majority to get it done.
If they were all for "what's best for the country" why did they shove $20B+ of pork into an emergency spending bill?
Because they are politicians and exist in a situation where they can't afford to waste a single bill without squeezing every penny of services for the Home district into the bill. Also, part of the blame of this is on Bush. The funding of this war should be part of the normal budget and review process, not a special bill that he has to get rushed through Congress. If he sets it up as a bill that must pass through Congress, then everybody's going to want a seat at the table, because they're giving away Ice Cream!
If line item veto is unconstitutional, then the same ideology should apply to the legislative branch -- riders should not be allowed on unrelated bills. The original purpose of LIV power was to restrain the amount of tax-wasting, interest-feeding pork barreling. If you think that POTUS has too much power, it's just as equally valid to say that COTUS is making too many power moves under the table.
The President's power is to enforce the Constitution and the laws that are handed to him. If he thinks a law is wrong, then he can veto it and send it back, or find a test case to bring a law before the Supreme Court. He's not in the business of making laws. It's not his job, and he should have no power in the field of original lawmaking.
As for this particular issue, Congress should just take the "defund the war" step and stop pussy-footing around.
They've effectively done just that. If there is no law to allocate the funding, then funding ceases.
Amen. But the real question is if or when they take this step is: what next? Meaning if we simply stop funding the war what happens - will troops have no choice but to pull out or will Bush find loopholes as far as funding? What's going to happen next and have the Democrats researched the immediate consequences?
The consequences are going to come whether we are there or not.
The Shiite and Sunni camps are more than happy to blow the living hell out of each other, and foreign powers like Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia are equally as happy to do nothing about their own terrorist groups that send fighters in to kill just about anyone. What's worse, this whole re-Vietnam was started by Bush and his ilk, despite the warnings given and not having a single intelligent, legitimate reason to attack. Our The right-wings invasion has done nothing but create a disastrous situation and spoil what support we had when we went, justifiably, into Afghanistan. Oh yeah, remember that country? Where Bin Ladin was hiding? We sort of forgot about that country didn't we. Now, the Taliban are pushing back in, and UN/US forces are being targeted there as well as in Pakistan.
The Bush administration and their glorious 'plan for a new American century' has brought us nothing but low employment, higher gas prices, unnecessary wars, rapid inflation, the alienation of our allies, and a general contempt for our country. The worst part is those miserable bastards will be decrying the democrats and saying this was all their fault. Even now at the republican presidential candidate debates, they're slinging slanderous and contemptuous lines (like insinuating Kerry is gay) that show them for what they really are.
This war was a bad idea from the start, Bush and his cronies ignored every single piece of advice and with the veto ignored the will of the American people. The entire party is rotten to the core with their only goals being control of the people, filling their pockets, and waging war.
On the topic of reasons for getting into the war: Had the intelligence been valid, and had Saddam actually been in bed with Al-Queda, there would have been ample cause and justification for planning a war. Unfortunately, the intelligence was fabricated (not inaccurate, fabricated, we know this because it's all coming out now), and there was no planning. I don't know if it was oil, "daddy's war" or straight up stupidity but Bush wanted us in this war, he wanted us in it fast, and with minimal strings attached.
On the topic of the bill: This was a stupid waste of time. The democrats declared their intention, Bush declared his, they knew they couldn't override him. What they should have done was said "we tried, but we can't, so rather than wasting everyones time and leaving our people with no money, we're going to go negotiate now." The point isn't that they somehow needed to show that they would pass the bill, everyone knew that, and everyone knew that Bush would veto it. Going forward was nothing more than political grandstanding for the next presidential election.
On the topic of the Line item veto: The line item veto is not a good idea. It gives the president too much power. Restricting pork is a good idea. They should have to categorize bills. eg. Construction: transportation infrastructure, and then you can only put in provisions related to that. So if people want to build a bunch of bridges and repair roads and such they can add to their hearts content, but shrimp surveys can't get near the bill. It will mean more bills, but they will get through faster and you won't have the president unable to pass bills on health care because someone has tacked on a provision creating restrictions on abortion or mandating federal support of oil companies or building a new battleship we don't need for $500Billion or the like.
On the topic of pulling out: We made the mess and now we have to fix it. More troops is a band aid on an arterial bleeder, it will do nothing.
Comments
We're starting from fundamentally different places here, so I'm not sure that we can come to any kind of consensus. The Democrats won both houses of Congress because the American People are tired of more of the same with the war, and adding more troops is a wonderful mix from the bottles of "More of the Same" and "Too Little, Too Late." They got a bill through both houses, but they don't have enough of a margin to override a veto. The majority of the country as represented by our legislative branch wants out, but not a large enough majority to get it done. Because they are politicians and exist in a situation where they can't afford to waste a single bill without squeezing every penny of services for the Home district into the bill. Also, part of the blame of this is on Bush. The funding of this war should be part of the normal budget and review process, not a special bill that he has to get rushed through Congress. If he sets it up as a bill that must pass through Congress, then everybody's going to want a seat at the table, because they're giving away Ice Cream! The President's power is to enforce the Constitution and the laws that are handed to him. If he thinks a law is wrong, then he can veto it and send it back, or find a test case to bring a law before the Supreme Court. He's not in the business of making laws. It's not his job, and he should have no power in the field of original lawmaking.
The Shiite and Sunni camps are more than happy to blow the living hell out of each other, and foreign powers like Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia are equally as happy to do nothing about their own terrorist groups that send fighters in to kill just about anyone. What's worse, this whole re-Vietnam was started by Bush and his ilk, despite the warnings given and not having a single intelligent, legitimate reason to attack. Our The right-wings invasion has done nothing but create a disastrous situation and spoil what support we had when we went, justifiably, into Afghanistan. Oh yeah, remember that country? Where Bin Ladin was hiding? We sort of forgot about that country didn't we. Now, the Taliban are pushing back in, and UN/US forces are being targeted there as well as in Pakistan.
The Bush administration and their glorious 'plan for a new American century' has brought us nothing but low employment, higher gas prices, unnecessary wars, rapid inflation, the alienation of our allies, and a general contempt for our country. The worst part is those miserable bastards will be decrying the democrats and saying this was all their fault. Even now at the republican presidential candidate debates, they're slinging slanderous and contemptuous lines (like insinuating Kerry is gay) that show them for what they really are.
This war was a bad idea from the start, Bush and his cronies ignored every single piece of advice and with the veto ignored the will of the American people. The entire party is rotten to the core with their only goals being control of the people, filling their pockets, and waging war.
Had the intelligence been valid, and had Saddam actually been in bed with Al-Queda, there would have been ample cause and justification for planning a war. Unfortunately, the intelligence was fabricated (not inaccurate, fabricated, we know this because it's all coming out now), and there was no planning. I don't know if it was oil, "daddy's war" or straight up stupidity but Bush wanted us in this war, he wanted us in it fast, and with minimal strings attached.
On the topic of the bill:
This was a stupid waste of time. The democrats declared their intention, Bush declared his, they knew they couldn't override him. What they should have done was said "we tried, but we can't, so rather than wasting everyones time and leaving our people with no money, we're going to go negotiate now." The point isn't that they somehow needed to show that they would pass the bill, everyone knew that, and everyone knew that Bush would veto it. Going forward was nothing more than political grandstanding for the next presidential election.
On the topic of the Line item veto:
The line item veto is not a good idea. It gives the president too much power. Restricting pork is a good idea. They should have to categorize bills. eg. Construction: transportation infrastructure, and then you can only put in provisions related to that. So if people want to build a bunch of bridges and repair roads and such they can add to their hearts content, but shrimp surveys can't get near the bill. It will mean more bills, but they will get through faster and you won't have the president unable to pass bills on health care because someone has tacked on a provision creating restrictions on abortion or mandating federal support of oil companies or building a new battleship we don't need for $500Billion or the like.
On the topic of pulling out:
We made the mess and now we have to fix it. More troops is a band aid on an arterial bleeder, it will do nothing.