Anyone in the mood for a good religious debate?

evan15342

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Discuss.

TheWhaleShark

http://richarddawkins.net/godDelusion

Debate over.

Erwin

I believe to let the ones that want to belive and also to the ones that do not, as long as anyone is harming anyone. It is like the son "Let it be".

evan15342

It's no fun if you're not nutty and irrational about it. Not even one BS pseudo-science flimsy explanation?

Erwin

Yeah, but is all that nutty stuff that messes the world up :P

HungryJoe

Why won't God heal amputees?

He's testing their faith. If they were faithful enough and really believed that they would be healed, He would heal them, but the unfaithful bastards persist in despair, a mortal sin. So He allows them to stay maimed as punishment.

Alex

I believe to let the ones that want to belive and also to the ones that do not, as long as anyone is harming anyone. It is like the son "Let it be".

Generally, I agree with the "live-and-let-live" philosophy. However, I will summarize some arguments Dawkins makes in The God Delusion in order to keep this going, and because I'm not yet sure where I stand on them.

Essentially, he argues that by allowing children to be taught the everyday forms of religion, we are shaping them to be vulnerable to more extreme forms. If the person in question truly believes in the supernatural, it will undoubtedly color their thoughts and actions. Regardless of how harmless their beliefs seem, they are acting in an irrational fashion based on false assumptions. It's possible that this will never cause a real problem, but it's also possible that someday the person will be faced with a life-or-death decision upon which their belief in the supernatural will bear strongly. If they choose to follow it, they have, without actually changing any of their beliefs, become "one of the crazies" in truth.

Once that reliance on faith over reason is planted, it can lead to some very dangerous places with disturbing ease. The faith that leads suicide bombers to detonate themselves for Allah, or that leads to abortion clinics being bombed in the name of Jesus, is first planted in its outwardly harmless form. Once religious authority is given that special exception from rational thought, it becomes all too easy for a corrupt or fanatical figure of religious authority to lead believers into very extreme acts.

Andrew

I believe this topic has been discussed thoroughly here. The only way we could ever carry out a length discussion is if someone came in here with spiritual beliefs and will debate about them. I believe that there is a strong majority of atheists on the board, and unless anyone counteracts us, this will be a very boring discussion...

Starfox

I like this quotation:

"Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Not that there's anyone here debating. Just throwin' that in there.

evan15342

FSMism is the one true path. I've met the midget. It's all true, since you can't prove it isn't.

Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Sail

I laugh at your Pastafarianism... Everyone knows the Ramenites hold the TRUE noodly appendage!

evan15342

The Ramenite Heresy and it's sodium infused followers (mostly of college age) will get theirs in the end. Pastafarianism is the religion with the big balls (and a midget).

AtheriShadow

Does the Church of the F.S.M. have a bible-type document?

AtheriShadow

Does the Church of the F.S.M. have a bible-type document?

Jekkio

I really do not understand where the whole "Christians are retards" idea was started, but I find it quite insulting.

I consider myself to be a rational man and I have always seen science as a gateway to understanding all that God has created in this vast universe.

The more science unwraps the mysteries of life all around us I cannot help but see God in every aspect of it. From the most minute particle to the process involving the birth and death of Stars, I find it all quite fascinating.

I know quite a few people who like myself see Science as faith enhancing, rather than something that replaces God.

Anyhow that's just my 2 cents.

For the Science lovers


Size of our Universe
Quantum Physics
A Tiny Glimpse
Huge Object *snicker*
Doomed (ok enough jokes)

evan15342

I don't think Christians are retards, unless they think that the Earth is 6k years old and god put dinosaur bones in the ground to trick us. Anyone who thinks that is pretty laking in the mental facilities dept. in my opinion, no matter who or what they pray to. The real problem I have is with organized religion, which is just a system of political control and social indoctrination. I think it's funny that most people will believe whatever you tell them and do whatever you tell them to do as long as you hit them with a combo of ego stroking and shame. Tell them that they're the center of the universe, and that something greater than everything else has a personal interest in them, and then tell them that that supreme being hates them for being bad, and they're hooked.

As an interesting side note, a survey showed that 98% of people think that they're of above average intelligence.

Omnutia

I personally wouldn't find it hard to believe that got likes practical jokes as much as the next man if it were possible for him to exist.
In my correct and righteous opinion religion is a lie that serves a purpose; which means that though god cant be proved or disproved as cant an infinite number of things, Including the invisible pink unicorn which I fervently believe exists, it doesn't really matter if they do or not as the only effect they have on the world is people believing them.

Andrew

The more science unwraps the mysteries of life all around us I cannot help but see God in every aspect of it. From the most minute particle to the process involving the birth and death of Stars, I find it all quite fascinating.

What evidence do you have that God created it? Apart from your faith, there is no reason to believe anybody created it.

There are indeed some very smart people who are religious. The thing is, they compartmentalize their life. They are logical and skeptical about everything, except for religion which goes in a separate box. They have been brought up and told that they shouldn't apply their scientific brain to their religion. Culture has told us that we should treat religion as a special thing that shouldn't be questioned or debated about. Religion is a very illogical thing.

HMTKSteve

The only god is Dr. Manhattan.

GreatTeacherMacRoss

Dr. Manhattan, I choose you!

Andrews' Law.

Discussion over.

evan15342

Andrews Rule states that: "As a Geeknights forum discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Pokemon approaches one." It doesn't say anything about ending a discussion. If, however you pointed out that if an individual believed in a god that was all knowing, all power full, and benevolent, while at the same time believing that the holocaust happened, your belief's a logically inconsistent, then you might succeed in invoking Godwin's Law.

trogdor9

Does the Church of the F.S.M. have a bible-type document?The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is sitting behind me.  Jekkio, how can you say that there is a God, but not a Flying Spaghetti Monster?  We Pastafarians have just as much evidence--even more, one might say; our prophet is still alive--than you have for God.

HMTKSteve

Unlike those "god" followers, Pastafarians do eat the body of their god!

Sail

Unlike those "god" followers, Pastafarians do eat the body of their god!

Yeah, and even if they did, he would sure taste better!

Jekkio

Does the Church of the F.S.M. have a bible-type document?

The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monsteris sitting behind me.  Jekkio, how can you say that there is a God, but not a Flying Spaghetti Monster?  We Pastafarians have just as much evidence--even more, one might say; our prophet is still alive--than you have for God.

Never claimed there was not a flying S'ketty monster , you have the right to worship Mickey Mouse if you want and I have no right to tell you otherwise.

My point is that I as a Christian do follow science, I am not here to dash any one's beliefs or make you believe mine.

Science is the study and understanding of the Material, Religious faith is a Spiritual issue.

Faith is not about material proof, I gained my faith from looking at myself and from the experiences of my life, no Preacher, Priest, or anyone else turned me to Christianity.

My family never once tried to influence me religiously or politically, they taught me good values and let me decide the latter for myself, and in suit that's the stance I take on such things.

Sail

There's a great chapter in The God Delusion that talks about why religion can't coexist with science. I'm too tired to remember it, perhaps someone more awake could summarize -_- z z z

Jekkio

There's a great chapter inThe God Delusionthat talks about why religion can't coexist with science. I'm too tired to remember it, perhaps someone more awake could summarize -_- z z z

Einstein himself believed very differently.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

But then again Einstein could not tie his own shoes. ; )

tuttle88

Does the Church of the F.S.M. have a bible-type document?

The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monsteris sitting behind me. Jekkio, how can you say that there is a God, but not a Flying Spaghetti Monster? We Pastafarians have just as much evidence--even more, one might say; our prophet is still alive--than you have for God.

My local library has a copy. Maybe that isn't a big deal but I live in a small city in an affluent, conservative area. I was shocked to see it.

Andrew

Einstein himself believed very differently.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

But then again Einstein could not tie his own shoes. ; )

"I don’t try to imagine a personal God; it suffices to stand in awe at the
structure of the world, insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to
appreciate it."

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie
which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God
and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in
me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the
structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. This is a somewhat new kind
of religion."

"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything
that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a
magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that
must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely
religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."

"The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even
naive."

So many people like to skew the words of people the world considers smart, taking one quotation to try and validate their own, unfounded ideas. Einstein was obviously not a Christian, and I am almost certain he was not religious in a supernatural way. I even believe that he was extremely skeptical about the idea that there was even any sort of supernatural force in the world.

Why don't you stop quoting people who are smarter than you and actually try to prove just one of your claims?

Sail

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

But look how he defined religion.

You will hardly find one among the profounder sort of scientific minds without a peculiar religious feeling of his own. But it is different from the religion of the naive man.

For the latter God is a being from whose care one hopes to benefit and whose punishment one fears; a sublimation of a feeling similar to that of a child for its father, a being to whom one stands to some extent in a personal relation, however deeply it may be tinged with awe.

But the scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation. The future, to him, is every whit as necessary and determined as the past. There is nothing divine about morality, it is a purely human affair. His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.

This feeling is the guiding principle of his life and work, in so far as he succeeds in keeping himself from the shackles of selfish desire. It is beyond question closely akin to that which has possessed the religious geniuses of all ages.

Einstein did not believe in a personal god. He defined religion as awe, not a belief in a savior god. Kinda twists your quote around the other way, doesn't it?

Jekkio

Einstein himself believed very differently.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

But then again Einstein could not tie his own shoes. ; )

"I don’t try to imagine a personal God; it suffices to stand in awe at the
structure of the world, insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to
appreciate it."

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie
which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God
and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in
me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the
structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. This is a somewhat new kind
of religion."

"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything
that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a
magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that
must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely
religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."

"The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even
naive."

So many people like to skew the words of people the world considers smart, taking one quotation to try and validate their own, unfounded ideas. Einstein was obviously not a Christian, and I am almost certain he was not religious in a supernatural way. I even believe that he was extremely skeptical about the idea that there was even any sort of supernatural force in the world.

Why don't you stop quoting people who are smarter than you and actually try to prove just one of your claims?

I made a mistake, I am only human friend .