GeekNights 070619 - What's Wrong with D&D?

Rym

Tonight on GeekNights, we discuss what we think is wrong with Dungeons and Dragons. In the news, Albion hates freedom, and Rock Band hates not rocking.
Scott’s Thing - Hidden Vinyl Games

Rym’s Thing - Harder. Faster.

MitchyD

Holy shit. I wrote a seven page article today that I need to type up, but EVERYTHING you mentioned, Rym, is in there regarding why games aren't bad for you.

Hilary Clinton's in there, rock'n'roll, reading books about serial killers... Damn you!

ironzealot

I don't think those are a girl's hands in Rym's thing of the day. You can clearly make out dark long hairs on the forearms. This person is most likely an effeminate male of some sort.

Corbin

Uh, if you read the description on the youtube page it says it's a man's hands.

EDIT: Hmm looking back it looks like it doesn't say that in the description part, but I believe he did say that it was his hands and that he was a male with a lot of jewelry.

Apreche

Damn, that mans has some girly hands!

tmerren

First: Daft Hands Rocks!

Second: I have noticed the same problems with Dungeons and Dragons. I am trying to convince the group I am in to switch to Burning Wheel, but it is difficult. Living in Japan, I have not had the opportunity to attend any gaming conventions; much less a convention where Luke Crane demonstrated the greatness that is Burning Wheel. (Interesting side note: I started listening to Geeknights because of your interview with Luke Crane) I think I have a good grasp of the mechanics, but I still don't get Duels of Wits, scripted combat, and resources tests (to name a few). I have played Dungeons and Dragons since high school, and I was not really aware that other games existed until my second or third year in the Marines. Even after I was introduced to the White Wolf line of games, it took many more years for me to discover Indie games. I am now the proud owner of several different system books. (D&D, Exalted, Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Shadowrun, True20, Serenity, Rifts, Legend of the Five Rings, Hero System, Sorcerer, The Mountain Witch, Mortal Coil, Dogs in the Vineyard, Polaris, Universalis, Conspiracy of Shadows, and Burning Wheel) I have read through the rules for all of these systems at least one, some of them twice, and a few of them several times. I strongly feel Burning Wheel is by far the best of the systems I own. I have only gotten the chance to play D&D, Shadowrun (twice I think), and a one on one session of Burning Wheel. I attempted to run The Sword for two people once, but they were not down with intra party (is that supposed to be hyphenated?) conflict. Can you offer any advice for switching my group. Hrmmm... I think I rambled a bit there, sorry about that.

Third: What Burning Wheel rules were added to your D&D games?

Sincerely,

Trenton

Rym

What Burning Wheel rules were added to your D&D games?
Most significant is that characters have beliefs just as they do in Burning Wheel.  Playing to or accomplishing the goals of a belief are rewarded in game directly via multiple means.

Zeehat

You can clearly make out dark long hairs on the forearms.

Maybe it's a Mexican. Or according to Scott, an alien. lol.

HMTKSteve

I never encountered any Role-Playing problems with AD&D. I only touched D&D3E for a short span and found it played like a video game.

WOTC moved D&D3E back towards miniatures because they were launching a miniatures line. Yes, it was all about the mighty dollar.

I don't want a game with hard rules on how the role-playing part of the game has to work. I only want the hard rules for the physics portion of the game. Kind of like real life, we have rules for how the world works (law of gravity, Newtons laws, etc.) but the rules for how you act are more like guidelines. Granted killing others (and getting caught) will get you put in jail (or dead) but I don't think those are the sorts of rules you are complaining about.

Apreche

I don't want a game with hard rules on how the role-playing part of the game has to work. I only want the hard rules for the physics portion of the game.

I don't think you are understanding quite 100%. We're not talking about having rules governing your role playing. There are no limitations on how you may act. In fact, there is less than D+D which limits you with its alignment system. However, because of the way the system is structured, your role playing, and not just your physical actions, have actual in-game consequences. In D+D you can role play your brains out, but it wont have much effect on the game either way. You will still die if the monster has higher numbers and rolls better than you do. In a system like Burning Wheel you can defeat the monster with your role playing, and it will be just as enjoyable if you try and fail.

Rym

Burning Wheel makes battles of wits and arguments just as important as combat, removing the need to resolve everything with a pitched battle.

HMTKSteve

In D+D you can role play your brains out, but it wont have much effect on the game either way. You will still die if the monster has higher numbers and rolls better than you do. In a system like Burning Wheel you can defeat the monster with your role playing, and it will be just as enjoyable if you try and fail.

Huh? Are playing a dice-less game or something? As to your assertion that role playing your heart out will have no in-game effect, you must be playing with a shoddy game master.

If you encounter monster in a D&D; game you do not have to enter armed combat with it. You can choose to parley. not all encounters can be overcome by brute force, some require cunning and diplomacy.

Burning Wheel makes battles of wits and arguments just as important as combat, removing the need to resolve everything with a pitched battle.

How is this different than in D&D;? I can enter a battle of wits with a monster and based on its Inteligence level and my skills I can overcome it without drawing a blade. Can you provide an example of this system because I am just not getting your complaint.

PS: I do not play D&D3E.; I prefer AD&D1E; and HackMaster.

Rym

As to your assertion that role playing your heart out will have no in-game effect, you must be playing with a shoddy game master.They only have an in-game effect if the DM forces them to: they still exist outside of the construct of the game mechanics themselves.
The point is that the role playing exists entirely outside of the system of D&D.  That being the case, why even bother with the D&D in the first place?  All it gets you is a procedural and somewhat tedious combat-resolution system.

Apreche

How is this different than in D&D;? I can enter a battle of wits with a monster and based on its Inteligence level and my skills I can overcome it without drawing a blade. Can you provide an example of this system because I am just not getting your complaint.

Yes, you can enter a "battle of wits" with a monster in D+D. But as you say, success will depend entirely on dice rolls and the numbers written on your piece of paper. It is not really any different than combat. You are simply rolling different dice in order to achieve different numbers. In Burning Wheel your actual role playing, as well as some dice, will affect the results. If you play your character poorly, your character will fail to achieve their goals. If you play your character well, then they are more likely to achieve their goals. Despite this, no matter which way the tables turn, the game will continue to march forward and continue to be enjoyable.

Really, Burning Wheel is a completely different concept from most mainstream tabletop RPGs. You have to completely change the way you think about what a tabletop RPG is, or you just won't get it. This is why I think it's actually easier for novice players to get into it than experienced players. Experienced players have a frame of mind that needs to change, whereas novice players do not. It's actually pretty cheap to get the BW books. Even if you never plan on playing the game I highly recommend reading the core rulebook. The insight within that book will be beneficial to any role player, no matter what system they decide to actually play. Can't go wrong with $25 for two books.

Also, I just discovered that they are releasing a summer secret surprise. A new book called "The Blossoms are Falling" will provide rules to help play Burning Wheel in the setting of feudal Japan. I already ordered it. I could not resist.

One more thing to keep in mind. We talk about these RPGs in a way that makes it seem like somehow this system is flat-out better than that system. This is mostly because of our taste in tabletop games. We do not enjoy rolling dice, making to-hit rolls, casting spells, rules lawyering, etc. as much as we did in our younger days. Some people enjoy this style of play, and for them, D+D, Gurps, HackMaster, etc. are great systems. It's just not for us. In fact, we like our games to have as little hacking and dungeoning as possible. Dragons and mastering we don't mind so much.

Dr. Timo

Cool thing of the day, kind of reminds me of the RCA vinyl video disc technology which died horribly despite being totally cool in a sort of steam punk way.

HMTKSteve

I'll have to see one of these games in action.

I play HackMaster because it has a built-in system to reward players for playing their characters correctly. It is called the Honor System. When you do things in line with your character you gain honor, you lose it for doing the opposite.

Example: If a thief steals money they gain honor, if a Paladin steals money they lose owner. The effects are based on class and alignment.

I have never played in a game where dice ruled the day. We have always allowed modifiers based on a player's role-playing performance. I just can't grok this sort of gaming where it is all dice. I refer to that sort of gaming as role-playing.

I enjoy hack-and-slash just as much as most gamers but I have run many sessions where the players never left the confines of the local time because everyone was having too much fun doing "in-character" activities in the town.

When I hear you guys talking about this I can't help but feel you are trying to solve a problem that does not exist (at least in my experience and I've been gaming over 25 years).

Rym

The other real issue for me is character classes.  They're very rigid, stereotypical, and boring in D&D.  Prestige classes, as they are written and used, are even worse, providing  more min/max opportunities and little else.  More and more, I prefer systems where there are no such constructs.  D&D lends itself to certain styles of play that I've become increasingly bored with.
But again, D&D CAN be used in good role playing.  Its failing is that it does not in and of itself encourage good role playing.  It's very easy to allow the action to fade, the moment to be lost.  It's very easy to get bogged down in meta thinking and procedural garbage.  It's very easy to role play poorly.  The system's primary focus is on combat.  If you're so willing to role-play despite the lack of any game system accomodations, why bother using said system for fighting either?  Why not simply play out the fighting with minimalistic rules they way D&D handles things like diplomacy.
Systems like Burning Wheel make it easy to play a character that is not as capable as you.  It makes it easy to play a high charisma person even if you yourself are anticharismatic.  It makes it easy to play a stupid character even if you yourself are smart.  Most of all, it drives every action to the climax.  It pushes every meta or procedural mire straight to the critical role playing point of the moment.  It resolves the point of contention elegantly, providing a framework within which to play your part.
Role playing is acting.  Dungeons and Dragons is like acting while simultaneously playing a tactical fighting game: the acting is superfluous to the core system.  With Burning Wheel, the system writes the screenplay, and you play out the parts.  You flesh out the details and make the decisions: the system determines the direction of the script.

HMTKSteve

I need to see an example of play.

Your "Dungeons and Dragons is like acting while simultaneously playing a tactical fighting game: the acting is superfluous to the core system" is spot on. I just need to see a Burning Wheel game in action because what you are discussing sounds like some weird 'dice-less' game.

Apreche

I just need to see a Burning Wheel game in action because what you are discussing sounds like some weird 'dice-less' game.

No, it has crazy dice. But they're all d6s! Depending on the type of gamer you are, you might consider not having anything other than a mountain of d6es to be dice-less.

HMTKSteve

Well... Why not record a session of gaming for us and put it on the experimental feed?

Apreche

Well... Why not record a session of gaming for us and put it on the experimental feed?

That would require having a session of gaming.

HMTKSteve

When is the monthly session, or is it on hiatus until CON season ends?

Apreche

When is the monthly session, or is it on hiatus until CON season ends?

Our monthly session is still D+D, in case you weren't listening.

HMTKSteve

I am well aware that the monthly session is D&D. By recording that sesion we can better understand where you (as a group) find D&D limiting.

When you start heading to CONs you might get lucky enough to be able to record a Burning Wheel session.

Apreche

When you start heading to CONs you might get lucky enough to be able to record a Burning Wheel session.

Yeah, we've been planning to do that for a long time. One of the main reasons we have not is because we need to buy a boundary microphone.

HMTKSteve

Do what the guys at YogRadio do. Take a styrofoam head and stick microphones in the ears.

Johannes Uglyfred II

It's very easy to get bogged down in meta thinking and procedural garbage.

This is absolutely true. I'm currently playing in another D&D; campaign (besides the FRC game) where the divide between the acting/roleplaying and the meta tactics game is really clear. The really frustrating part is that some players in it, like me, favor the roleplaying side, and others favor the combat and tactics part. This leads to a distinction between the types of sessions we have - either roleplaying-oriented or combat-oriented - during which half the players are engaged and the other half are either bored or participating against their own inclinations. It would be unfair of me to call our DM in the game anything less than brilliant; the plot is amazing and mind-bending, and the combat is organized in a challenging and exciting way if you're interested in that sort of thing. The problem lies less with the way he runs the game and more with the fact that the D&D; system does nothing to reconcile roleplaying and miniatures combat, which either become competing or alternating aspects of play due to the structure of the system.

In D&D;, roleplaying provides the justification for combat, but the roleplaying does not extend into the procedures or choices made in that combat. As Rym said, it requires a certain amount of discipline to successfully transition between thinking from the perspective of your character during roleplaying to thinking from the perspective of the player during combat. I find this wearying, especially during long sessions, and it makes roleplaying well difficult because the mechanics of the game force you to disconnect from your character at times. In D&D;, if you do NOT think in a meta way during fighting - if you do not take advantage of the rules and tactics - you WILL fail the encounter. And if you fail, it holds up the plot, or your characters die. So to keep things progressing, players step outside of their RP roles to address the meta part of the game, or the DM has to downgrade the challenge level of the fight if he/she has decided not to allow meta during combat. Neither is very satisfying, and the fact that combat and roleplay (being in your character's shoes and mindset) cannot be engaged in at the same time in D&D; is part of what's wrong with the system.

Our current DM challenges his players to think - but I realize now that it's a challenge to take the rules you are given and use them in the most intelligent and logical way in order to "win" in a situation. It's not a challenge to think as my character would, to stand, believably, in the shoes of another person - and this helps illustrate the most core design difference between D&D; and Burning Wheel.

(And seriously - if one "round" of combat in D&D; represents six seconds of in-game time - why in the HELL does rolling dice and performing the procedure of that round take FIVE MINUTES? >_<;;)

Sail

Also, I just discovered that they are releasing asummer secret surprise. A new book called "The Blossoms are Falling" will provide rules to help play Burning Wheel in the setting of feudal Japan. I already ordered it. I could not resist.

Oh man. I just got the core books and now I'm going to be forced to give them more money. Oh well.

Speaking of giving Luke Crane money, has anyone in here had any experience with Burning Empires?

navelfluff

I somewhat agree with HMTKSteve that your complaints about D&D and appraisal of Burning Wheel gives the impression that you are used to a bad playing style. Don't misunderstand me - I don't like D&D. But for several years that was the most used game system in my group of friends, and we had some fantastic character role playing moments. That kind of role play came naturally no matter what system we used.

I see how Burning Wheel forces you to concentrate on role playing and don't let the rule distract you from that. From your comments I understand the game is quick to play. I just want to point out that there are other strategies to obtain game immersion. One way is to have the rules such that they describe real life well (and fairly detailed). It makes your fantasy world very real, and forces your players/characters to interact with it like a real person, thus immersion. The only system I know that does this (that I know of, and I haven't really looked for any other) is the rather old and obscure MEGA Role-Playing System. I am actually credited as Interior Artist (named spelled wrong) in the MEGA system, and I was also one of test players during development. /bragging

The rules are quite complex, and fighting is slow. It's all based on real life. Even the toughest fighter will die of an arrow through their head. Fighting is something you avoid if you can. The realism also forces you to think about what motivation would make a person choose the dangerous life of the adventurer. Great character development and role play comes from that. Fighting is detailed and slow to play, but it works kind of like "bullet time" where the chaos of a battle can be perceived in details. The realistic details makes you feel like the fighting is really happening to your alter ego that you have developed and care for. Lot's of adrenaline!

What I just described is very different from your description of Burning Wheel. I just point out that there are different strategies to get great role play.

HMTKSteve

The original Cyberpunk game from R.Talsorian games had a very brutal combat system. In that game every combat that began was quickly over with massive casualties on both sides.

CrimsonGenesis

BTW new listener and first time poster.

I always enjoyed the 3.5 system. I found that though the classes were pretty standard and cliche', the openess and customizablity were a step-up from 2e. I mean, no longer were dwarves pretty much limited to martial classes. Now, if I wanted to, I could make a Dwarf Necromancer... or a gnome fighter... or a 1/2 orc paladin. So that was a huge plus in my column. Though the rules were a little more open ended in 2e, the system was restricting when it came to the customizablity aspect (even kits were limiting).

I viewed the 3.5 rules as kind of a double-edged sword. I enjoyed the fact that it limited arguing among the group. I could flip to page X in the DMG and show them what was needed to be rolled rather than arguing with my party about how this role would make more sense because of this. But the finite rules lost their appeal after a few years. Now it has devolved to where pretty much every action I took was looked up by our game's "rule nazi" (as we lovingly call him)... further lengthening our battle. Again these double-edged rules cursed us, because no matter what happened, someone was upset because the DM's call was inacurrate or the DM conceded and so-and-so got an advantage that someone else didn't get.

I guess that is my biggest gripe with 3.5. The battles take FOREVER! We have tried everything to speed it up... from an egg-timer were everyone gets a set amount of time... to rule-looking afterwards during the eventual smoke-break from our party's smokers... to DM call on everything. It doesn't matter, combat, no matter what, takes forever.

I have always tried to encourage roleplaying whenever I DM a game. And I have succeeded and failed. My biggest success came from appealing to my party's greed and rewarding bonus XP to the good roleplayers. But I agree, D&D in and of itself isn't as conducive to RP'ing as other systems.

Well that's just my 2cents with D&D and I am intrigued by Burning Wheel. I will see if my local game shop has it and flip through the core books.

Thanks guys for the tip and keep up the interesting podcasts!