Manga NOT from japan

Viga

What do you guys think about world manga or OEL manga?

I really like a lot like Gothic Sports, Dramacon, Aoi House and Re:play. I try a webmanga here and there as well. I think there's a lot of potential out there and I want to be one of those american manga-ka myself. I know some people wont even give it a chance just because it not from Japan. I think it's kinda bull. I think while there are some really bad stuff there's good out there too.

Also what are the world manga/webmanga you like?

Neito

I read Dramacon, but it took too long between new volumes. I also read Megatokyo, which suffers a similar problem. That's about it.

Sail

I know some people wont even give it a chance just because it not from Japan. I think it's kinda bull.

If you think that the fact that people won't give American-written comics a chance is stupid, then why do you people still parade under the facade of calling them "manga"? "American comics" is not a bad word, and I don't understand why something needs to be called "manga" or "manga-style" to be good. You and the people who create these comics are not and will never be "mangaka", and why should it matter?

Viga

It's called American manga because of the style used. I never said you can't lump them in with American comics nor said it needs to be called such to be "good".

Me and these people will never be manga-ka because we're in America? Shit, It's already happened to some whether you like it or not.

One Sin

Manga is a regional thing, not a stylistic thing. As long as your primary audience is American, then you are not a manga-ka. You are an American comic writer.

Viga

So if I made some spaghetti it can't be spaghetti because its not made in Italy.

snookernet

Would a graphic novel by any other name actually make it better? This is just like the pseudosciences that try to gain a respectful notoriety by passing themselves off as science.

Railith

Manga is a regional thing, not a stylistic thing. As long as your primary audience is American, then you are not a manga-ka. You are an American comic writer.

CORRECT!

I honestly don't like the Japanese style American comics because they mostly emulate the crappy parts of manga.

Viga

Would a graphic novel by any other name actually make it better? This is just like the pseudosciences that try to gain a respectful notoriety by passing themselves off as science.

Calling something anything doesn't make it good. There ARE some bad world/OEL manga out there but there's also some good well written and drawn stuff out there. Sometimes you have to dig but it's there.

So Sneaks, you're basically saying you hate artists that call their comic art manga?

Should I just make the generalization that you guys disrespect those using the medium?

Andrew

Who the fuck cares what it's called, if it's good, it's good. This is like the time Scott got in a fight with Clarissa from AWO over calling that one manga Shoujo. Talk about an exercise in futility.

raquor

I'm going to have to agree with Viga on this one. When I think of Manga I don't think of a particular "region" where media comes from, I think of the style. I'll grant you that I associate Japan with the style but I still see it as a style. Calling something Manga to me indicates: Black and White, exaggerated features, sold in a bound paperback format. Calling something a comic indicates: Color, perhaps sold as a flimsy and fragile 10-15 page stapled brochure for DC and the Video Game industry...and maybe Ball Park Franks.

My "definitions" have very little to do with the actual classification, I'm quite sure of that; but that is the perception I have of the two terms. (Obviously I'm not a fan of "comics"...)

One Sin

So if I made some spaghetti it can't be spaghetti because its not made in Italy.

That is a horrible analogy. That aside, you can't use a "manga style" because there is no such thing. You can attempt to emulate the common style used among a good deal of manga and anime in Japan currently, but "manga style" is a horrible misnomer, since it disregards any styles aside from the one made popular by certain shows such as Tenchi Muyo.

Self-proclaimed "OEL manga" artists or "American Manga-ka" are delusional weaboos and need to get their terms straight.

Viga

So if I made some spaghetti it can't be spaghetti because its not made in Italy.

Self-proclaimed "OEL manga" artists or "American Manga-ka" are delusional weaboos and need to get their terms straight.

Maybe it wasn't a good analogy and I wont knock your beliefs of manga style but you can only make a statement like the one above if you know every single american manga-ka or manga artist. Since you most likely don't that last statement I consider that moot. A horrible generalization. A bad thing to say about aspiring artists and fans of manga.

BTW. What manga made outside of japan have you read that led to such a hatred of it's creators and work? It is possible to have a misconception due to an experience?

Also about this...

"manga style" is a horrible misnomer, since it disregards any styles aside from the one made popular by certain shows such as Tenchi Muyo..

Are you talking about the fact that it's a harem? Genres of manga and art style of manga are different dude.

Sail

Viga, give a clear, concise definition as to what you believe manga is before this argument progresses.

One Sin

I frankly don't care if they're aspiring artists or not. Ignorance is ignorance.

Seeing as there was somehow a need to clarify, the art style used in Tenchi Muyo was not the norm prior to its release. Only after certain shows using the same style became popular did it become common.


Alright then, how 'bout this?
Define "manga-style" while accommodating for 80's anime designs, the various styles seen in Gekiga manga, etc.
If your definition is clear, concise, properly-reasoned, and whatnot, I will submit.

EDIT: Looks like you beat me to the punch, Sail.

Viga

I think that manga are comics drawn in the stylized way originated in Japan or originated in Japan.

One Sin

So this merely comes down to what YOU think manga is?

Gentlemen, I rest my case.

Sail

So this merely comes down to what YOU think manga is?

One Sin, I'm on your side, but that is a stupid argument.

I think that manga are comics drawn in the stylized way originated in Japan or originated in Japan.

I doubt the author of Dr. McNinja would call his comic "manga".

One Sin

Yes, my phrasing was rather poor, but the point remains. The definition of manga has already been established.

Sail

Yes, my phrasing was rather poor, but the point remains. The definition of manga has already been established.

By whom? Who has the right of the authoritative definition?

One Sin

I don't know. A general consensus among people who concern themselves in that area with any seriousness, I'd assume. No one has that right as far as I can tell, but look it up. All the sources I've run into define it simply as "Japanese comics". I have yet to see it defined as "Comics using ____ style".

Omnutia

I can't think of an art style off hand that has ever had strict rules for who can draw it and who can't (though I suspect someone will quickly provide an example). People see something they like and copy it then do their own thing. Manga and Western comics are easily distinguishable (IMO) so naturally people who like one and not the other will want to draw one and not the other.
Manga drawn outside Japan will not look like manga drawn inside Japan, that is due to differences in influences and audience, but if you look at that and can say "this looks like Manga" then that is a Manga.
If you want to argue over what is "true" manga then that is your choice and while your at it define what makes something art.

Conversely I would recommend people who want to draw manga should take influences from as many sources as possible and become as well rounded artists as possible, cause if you want to draw manga your going to need to know how to draw.
Also, people who use this specifically for the purpose of taking a sub par serial art (read "Making Comics" by Scott McCloud) and making it appeal more to a target audience is just a sad sign of the times.

snookernet

Would a graphic novel by any other name actually make it better? This is just like the pseudosciences that try to gain a respectful notoriety by passing themselves off as science.

Calling something anything doesn't make it good. There ARE some bad world/OEL manga out there but there's also some good well written and drawn stuff out there. Sometimes you have to dig but it's there.

So Sneaks, you're basically saying you hate artists that call their comic art manga?

Should I just make the generalization that you guys disrespect those using the medium?

I just feel like these are made by the same people that think Japanese art and culture is superior and should be held above all else. I mean, it's obviously marketed toward that crowd, they wouldn't dare let themselves be categorized with the rest of the comic industry.

Mamath

Comics: English for manga.

It's all just sequential art that you can often buy in book form, argh.

I think the whole "OEL" thing is dumb. Just publish your comics and see if people like them! However, I guess it's necessary to market these products in such a way because the people who buy them insist on differentiating, the dumbasses. If you really want to know where your author happens to live you can look them up on the interwubs or something! It's really doesn't matter.

Admittedly, the mainstream comics industry has been really unhelpful. Artists under the "OEL" label may well have more freedom just because they aren't expected to write/draw 10+ comics about Batman and nothing else.

I would never allow my work (if I had any, lolz) to be marketed under the "OEL" label. I refuse to encourage the "manga VS comics" mentality.

omegafinal

Ugh, I just hate the fact there are people who hates American comics with an anime flair just because it's not Japanese. I'll answer your question though. One good non-Japanese manga I remember fondly years back was Ragnarok by Myung Jin Lee, but I don't recommend buying it now, since he pretty much placed it on permenant hiatus. Amazing Agent Luna is my current favorite, since the writers also did New X-Men: Academy X (before House of M screwed them over).
But they are just comics in the end, no matter how you look at it. Even though I'm attracted to the general anime style, that's because I also draw in that style for reasons I don't feel like listing out right now.

snookernet

You're missing the point, we don't hate them, just stop trying to pass them off as manga.

Mamath

You're missing the point, we don't hate them, just stop trying to pass them off as manga.

I get the feeling that any publisher that doesn't make some allusion to how their "manga style" products are made by non-Japanese people will be accused of trying to "pass off" their product as "real manga" by, sadly, the majority of manga readers/purchasers. Publishers in this situation are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Erwin

In Japan:
manga = comics
In the rest of the world:
manga = comics from japan.
Marketing:
comics = word that is jaded
manga = HOT!
OEL = maybe we can fool people, right?
Smart Consumer:
manga: I do not care as long as it is good
comics: I do not care as long as it is good
OEL: I do not care as long as it is good
 

Apreche

chronocross definitely has the right idea.

Personally, I think that it would be best if we English speakers agreed to use the word manga to refer only to comics from Japan. It's a lot easier to say "check out this manga", than "check out this Japanese comic". Meanwhile, if we decide that the word manga should refer to a certain artistic style of comic, regardless of origin, then the word becomes useless to us. We'll have to start using a different word besides manga to talk about the comics made by Osamu Tezuka, Kazuo Koike, Yoshihiro Tatsumi, Eiji Otsuka, Naoiki Urasawa, etc. because they are comics from Japan that are not in the stereotpyical anime/manga style. Also because artistic style is subjective while country of origin is objective, we will end up fighting constantly about which "OELs" are manga and which are not.

In the end, I guess all that really matters is that people read good comics no matter where they come from or what they are called.

omegafinal

You're missing the point, we don't hate them, just stop trying to pass them off as manga.

I guess I kinda now get the point in your words. It's just the fact I use to have the mindset of everything Japanese is an automatic awesome. One time at the RIT Anime Club, I made a guest announcement few years back that I made a flash video and would like voice actors. I would've stopped there, but I had to add in, to put it bluntly, "I'm sorry, it's going to be in English, not Japanese."
===
Gah...chronocross_xp has placed it in words that I would never have thought of.

Tripwire

Sorry but I kinda side with those guys at AWO. If it isn't from Japan, initially intended for the Japanese public, probably by a Japanese person it isn't really manga. I mean who really wanted that Avril Lavigne garbage to be released?