I'll give you a quick example. Zul'aman is a 10-man instance where you must kill 4 bosses. There are many trash monsters in the way to each boss. Once you walk in and talk to a guy, a timer starts, and you have a certain amount of time to down all 4 bosses to get the most loot possible. You can take different paths, and certain bosses add more time to the timer than others. The gorup make-up and strategic decisions dictate where you go, and how you get there. You can do it differently every time, and you can get them all down every time, it just depends on your group.
But you've solved it, there is nothing more to gain. With perfect gameplay (no one fucks up), you will get the best result every time. Why do you keep playing it? I'm guessing it's so you can get different in-game objects, which I think is a worthless goal to play for.
Well, I didn't want to get into the very specifics of WoW, but it's almost essentially two different games: WoW PvE (player vs. environment) and WoW PvP (player vs. player). The two aspects are incredibly different, and in many cases test totally different skillsets.
I'm aware of PvP, but then you get into PvP servers and PvE servers and specific PvP areas and arenas.
I'll give you a quick example. Zul'aman is a 10-man instance where you must kill 4 bosses. There are many trash monsters in the way to each boss. Once you walk in and talk to a guy, a timer starts, and you have a certain amount of time to down all 4 bosses to get the most loot possible. You can take different paths, and certain bosses add more time to the timer than others. The gorup make-up and strategic decisions dictate where you go, and how you get there. You can do it differently every time, and you can get them all down every time, it just depends on your group.
But you've solved it, there is nothing more to gain. With perfect gameplay (no one fucks up), you will get the best result every time. Why do you keep playing it? I'm guessing it's so you can get different in-game objects, which I think is a worthless goal to play for.
Have you ever played a puzzle game? Why do you play? I'm guessing it's so you can solve the puzzles. I did the instance many times, and found my favorite way to do the instance, and that is my solution. Then I move on. But to move I have to unlock the next instance, by reputation, or with gear to be able to do it. Kind of like doing the arcade mode in Melee to unlock new characters. You might have solved Mario, and you want to try Star Wolf, but you have to do arcade, or play Vs. a lot to get him.
Have you ever played a puzzle game? Why do you play? I'm guessing it's so you can solve the puzzles. I did the instance many times, and found my favorite way to do the instance, and that is my solution.
I don't play a puzzle over and over again so I can play a different one. If a puzzle required me to solve another one 20 times before I could play it, I wouldn't bother in the first place. There are lots of other puzzles, many of them that are a lot harder, which I can learn to solve in the time it would take me to do the same puzzle 20 times.
Kind of like doing the arcade mode in Melee to unlock new characters. You might have solved Mario, and you want to try Star Wolf, but you have to do arcade, or play Vs. a lot to get him.
This sucks too. Why should I have to do the same action over and over again just to get another character? It's retarded.
Have you ever played a puzzle game? Why do you play? I'm guessing it's so you can solve the puzzles.
You don't have to grind between puzzles. That's my only gripe with WoW. I don't see how WoW is that different from most videogames - except for the grinding.
If you can play back-to-back interesting and challenging dungeon crawls, then power to you. If you have to grind to get to additional interesting parts, then it makes much less sense to me.
Assuming the grinding is minimal, WoW is probably enjoyable in moderation. The problem is that there are many folks who let it consume their life. I don't care what game you are playing - that's a bad thing.
You don't have to grind between puzzles. That's my only gripe with WoW. I don't see how WoW is that different from most videogames - except for the grinding.
THIS is the crux of the issue. I don't share Scott's vitriol at all: WoW wouldn't be that bad of a game if you could:
Arbitrarily choose your class and level
Arbitrarily choose your equipment
Then, you could play the game of WoW without having to grind to effectively unlock these two sliders: level and equipment.
If I could arbitrarily choose my level and equipment, I would probably play WoW.
If WoW let you (meaning everyone) arbitrarily choose your level and equipment (I'll even allow an exception for special "trophy" items being semi-unique), would you still play?
That's the only problem, eh? How do you feel about this, then? It's too late to enter, but the results have been interesting thus far.
EDIT: If I could just make a level 70 character and deck him out how I wanted, I'd totally play. Hell, right now, it's not even that difficult to get to 70, and there's a lot of gear you get along the way that lets you enjoy the game. The great thing about WoW is that it's really casual-friendly.
I think I have found a better way to explain the concept of solved games.
Think of sudoku. Once you've solved one sudoku, you've solved them all. Even if you give me ten sudokus, and I don't fill in a single number, they are all still solved. I know an algorithm, a ordered list of instructions, that when followed will result in finding all possible solutions to any solvable sudoku problem. Actually solving a specific sudoku consists solely of manual labor. You aren't making any meaningful decisions, you are just following directions. It's no different than building a shelf from Ikea.
Now consider an unsolved game, like Go. There are no directions. Many people have tried, but nobody has yet written a set of instructions that you can follow to determine the optimal move for any Go board. They've got lots of ideas, but no concrete answers. When you play a game like Go, you aren't just executing an algorithm. Instead, you are coming up with an algorithm. You are actually solving an unsolved problem. You are testing your solution against the solutions of others.
When you play a game like T+E, you are coming up with a new algorithm and testing how it holds up against the algorithms your opponents have come up with. When you play a game like WoW, you are just testing how good you and your friends are at executing an already known algorithm. It's the difference between building a factory and working in a factory. It's the difference between designing a machine and being a machine.
Figuring out the algorithms is where strategy lives. Executing algorithms is the realm of meaningless busywork.
No, you're not a feral druid. You only play one in the game. Saying that, followed by a giant chunk of WoW-speak, doesn't really help your argument.
What the hell? I thought we were trying to have a civil discussion, and you make some bullshit statement. I thought we were speaking as adults, and you seem to be talking down to me like I have a problem. You know full well what I meant when I said that, and you're trying to make me look ridiculous to help your argument.
Whether you call it a "paragraph of nerd" or a "giant chunk of WoW-speak", the original post I referred to made you look exactly like the caricature of a mindless WoW-addict that this thread is bashing, the type of guy who can't separate himself from the game anymore. It was, in my opinion, the definition of what not to say to convince people that WoW isn't a boring waste of time. Sorry if that upsets you.
I think I have found a better way to explain the concept of solved games.
Think of sudoku. Once you've solved one sudoku, you've solved them all. Even if you give me ten sudokus, and I don't fill in a single number, they are all still solved. I know an algorithm, a ordered list of instructions, that when followed will result in finding all possible solutions to any solvable sudoku problem. Actually solving a specific sudoku consists solely of manual labor. You aren't making any meaningful decisions, you are just following directions. It's no different than building a shelf from Ikea.
Now consider an unsolved game, like Go. There are no directions. Many people have tried, but nobody has yet written a set of instructions that you can follow to determine the optimal move for any Go board. They've got lots of ideas, but no concrete answers. When you play a game like Go, you aren't just executing an algorithm. Instead, you are coming up with an algorithm. You are actually solving an unsolved problem. You are testing your solution against the solutions of others.
Not entirely as go has standard answers to certain situation most players go by, but I think we can see the point.
Ok, I have refrained from delving into any WoW based arguments but now, after sampling both sides of the argument, I feel I had enough knowledge to throw my weight around with a far larger degree of accuracy than most of our posters.
Firstly, my WoW background; I no longer play the game. I had a level 70, full epic, PvE raiding restoration (healing) Druid. When I stopped playing, around 6 months ago, my guild had progressed as far as the final boss in the 25 man instance Serpentshrine Cavern; 'Lady Vashj'. We had also killed the first two bosses of the 'Tempest Keep' instance. I had also participated in the 2v2 arena, achieving a top 5% ranking with poor PvP gear (a point which I shall come back to later)
Firstly, I shall address the arguments 'for' World of Warcraft, and see if I can rectify any of the apparent misconceptions of this game, and then I shall argue the 'against' viewpoint and summarise why I quit, and what I currently think of the game as an ex-player, with several of my friends still playing.
I'm going to argue that the concept here of 'skill' is irrelevant; it surmounts to different things in different games. In CounterStrike, the 'skill' required, in its most basic level is reaction time, and accuracy of the basic motor functions required to move a pointer over a head. It can also be argued in that in the more co-ordinated games teamwork and tactics are required. This is entirely the same for World of Warcraft; and this is particularly evident in the PvP scene. as I have mentioned before, I had a far progressed guild in PvE terms, but when it comes to PvP the armour and items required are different. No one who has played World of Warcraft can argue that in PvP different armour is required than that of PvE. Me and my team partner would REPEATEDLY come against equivalent combinations (Warlock, Druid) with what is called 'straight upgrades' of our own gear. In essence, they had everything better than us, and we would beat them, repeatedly, without difficulty. This is because skill is, unquestionably, required to participate in the arena. I assume you agree that reaction time is a factor of the 'skill' required to play Counterstrike, and is certainly required in WoW too; if I saw an enemy casting, for example, as disabling effect on my teammate then I would have to react, quickly with perhaps a moonfire, or another instant spell do disrupt the cast. We would be constantly talking over Ventrilo during matches, and to suggest that teamwork and co-ordination (another 'skill' factor) is not required is simply ludicrous.
I do not, in summary, think that the game is any worse than CounterStrike, Final Fantasy, Team Fortress, or any other game. And the case does exist that playing WoW was considerably cheaper than buying a £20 game and finishing it every month, and in WoW I met some truly great people, one of whom I would consider among my closest friends, and who I'm going with to University next year. This is not to say, however, that playing this or any other game is as good as doing something creative. Write a book, draw something, do a podcast, whatever interests you. In the time I saved from stopping WoW I invested several hundred hours learning how to use the source SDK, and released a Portal map which several thousand people have downloaded and (I hope) enjoyed. The reward from that is far better than your new Tier 6 epic Thunderheart greathelm. I assure you.
I don't get why this has turned into an argument. Some people enjoy playing WoW and some people do not. Some people like reading sci-fi books and some do not. Some people like having anal sex and some people do not. WHY are people investing so much time in what boils down to an argument of taste. I will never convince Mr.MacRoss that strawberry-rhubarb pie tastes good and he will never convince me that it tastes bad. This thread is a waste of time and I am genuinely perplexed as to why anyone gives a crap.
In other words: Some people equate WoW to anal sex, some others equate it something different involving the same body part.
There's no reason you can't enjoy BOTH anal sex AND strawberry-rhubarb pie.
In fact, the combination of the two can be quite enjoyable.
As for the topic at hand, debating the merits of video games can be a worthwhile endeavor. If one is trying to figure out where to spend one's time and money, one should really deeply consider it, especially with something that requires the investment of an MMO. WoW mitigates a lot of the normal MMO investment, but still, it requires a not-insignificant investment of time and money; it's certainly worth thinking about.
As for the topic at hand, debating the merits of video games can be a worthwhile endeavor. If one is trying to figure out where to spend one's time and money, one should really deeply consider it, especially with something that requires the investment of an MMO. WoW mitigates a lot of the normal MMO investment, but still, it requires a not-insignificant investment of time and money; it's certainly worth thinking about.
Not only that, but there are millions and millions of people around the world playing this thing, and investing a great deal of time and money into it. Even if you are not personally considering whether or not to play it yourself, it is very important to examine such a huge cultural phenomenon.
FCC commissioner says WoW is leading cause of college dropouts. Of course, this person has no scientific study to back this up, but it's worth discussing none the less. I can personally give plenty of anecdotal evidence of MMO addicted folk in the dorms of RIT. Someone's freshman year room-mate's Asheron's Call addition jumps to mind.
FCC commissioner says WoW is leading cause of college dropouts. Of course, this person has no scientific study to back this up, but it's worth discussing none the less. I can personally give plenty of anecdotal evidence of MMO addicted folk in the dorms of RIT. Someone's freshman year room-mate's Asheron's Call addition jumps to mind.
Someone else we know failed grad school because of Advance Wars. I think it has more to do with the person and their propensity for addictive games rather than the games themselves. Of course, you could blame the game manufacturers for purposefully making and marketing an addictive game, but that's sort of like blaming Smith & Wesson for gun crimes.
Personally, I'm done with WoW. Warhammer Online is where I'm at now; I much prefer the idea of playing a game based on massive PvP content, rather than static, predictable PvE encounters. Also, I'm a sucker for anything Warhammer related.
I wouldn't be surprised if it were true. My friend has missed more school and seemed lazier after playing Final Fantasy 11 than when he started smoking pot. He plays for like 12 hours a day, every day.
I played WoW on a private server for about a month, it was fun but eventually got boring so I quit (There are only so many times you can run BT/Kara/Hyjal before it gets old).
Anyway, games don't cause problems, it's the incompetents who can't manage their time properly who cause problems.
FCC commissioner says WoW is leading cause of college dropouts. Of course, this person has no scientific study to back this up, but it's worth discussing none the less. I can personally give plenty of anecdotal evidence of MMO addicted folk in the dorms of RIT. Someone's freshman year room-mate's Asheron's Call addition jumps to mind.
I knew someone who dropped out due to mIRC. There is much on the internet to addict people. WoW is just one of the many alternatives.
FCC commissioner says WoW is leading cause of college dropouts. Of course, this person has no scientific study to back this up, but it's worth discussing none the less. I can personally give plenty of anecdotal evidence of MMO addicted folk in the dorms of RIT. Someone's freshman year room-mate's Asheron's Call addition jumps to mind.
I'm sure this happens, but when I was in college, you know in 1998 through 2003, the primary cause of people dropping out due to video games, was FPS's, but that was because the early part of those 5 years was before most people had cable modems, you would come to college and suddenly have a 23 ping!!! You'd be pwning n00bs for hours. Oh the memories. Anyhow, my floor was full of CS and IT students who played FPS's constantly and by the mid point of the year about half of them remained. Some never went to class choosing to play FPS's almost all their waking hours. Trying to ping this on MMO's completely misses the point that a student with poor time management skills (and self-control) will do EXTREMELY poorly in college.
Comments
This is my view of the situation.
If you can play back-to-back interesting and challenging dungeon crawls, then power to you. If you have to grind to get to additional interesting parts, then it makes much less sense to me.
Assuming the grinding is minimal, WoW is probably enjoyable in moderation. The problem is that there are many folks who let it consume their life. I don't care what game you are playing - that's a bad thing.
- Arbitrarily choose your class and level
- Arbitrarily choose your equipment
Then, you could play the game of WoW without having to grind to effectively unlock these two sliders: level and equipment.If I could arbitrarily choose my level and equipment, I would probably play WoW.
If WoW let you (meaning everyone) arbitrarily choose your level and equipment (I'll even allow an exception for special "trophy" items being semi-unique), would you still play?
EDIT: If I could just make a level 70 character and deck him out how I wanted, I'd totally play. Hell, right now, it's not even that difficult to get to 70, and there's a lot of gear you get along the way that lets you enjoy the game. The great thing about WoW is that it's really casual-friendly.
Think of sudoku. Once you've solved one sudoku, you've solved them all. Even if you give me ten sudokus, and I don't fill in a single number, they are all still solved. I know an algorithm, a ordered list of instructions, that when followed will result in finding all possible solutions to any solvable sudoku problem. Actually solving a specific sudoku consists solely of manual labor. You aren't making any meaningful decisions, you are just following directions. It's no different than building a shelf from Ikea.
Now consider an unsolved game, like Go. There are no directions. Many people have tried, but nobody has yet written a set of instructions that you can follow to determine the optimal move for any Go board. They've got lots of ideas, but no concrete answers. When you play a game like Go, you aren't just executing an algorithm. Instead, you are coming up with an algorithm. You are actually solving an unsolved problem. You are testing your solution against the solutions of others.
When you play a game like T+E, you are coming up with a new algorithm and testing how it holds up against the algorithms your opponents have come up with. When you play a game like WoW, you are just testing how good you and your friends are at executing an already known algorithm. It's the difference between building a factory and working in a factory. It's the difference between designing a machine and being a machine.
Figuring out the algorithms is where strategy lives. Executing algorithms is the realm of meaningless busywork.
Firstly, my WoW background; I no longer play the game. I had a level 70, full epic, PvE raiding restoration (healing) Druid. When I stopped playing, around 6 months ago, my guild had progressed as far as the final boss in the 25 man instance Serpentshrine Cavern; 'Lady Vashj'. We had also killed the first two bosses of the 'Tempest Keep' instance. I had also participated in the 2v2 arena, achieving a top 5% ranking with poor PvP gear (a point which I shall come back to later)
Firstly, I shall address the arguments 'for' World of Warcraft, and see if I can rectify any of the apparent misconceptions of this game, and then I shall argue the 'against' viewpoint and summarise why I quit, and what I currently think of the game as an ex-player, with several of my friends still playing.
I'm going to argue that the concept here of 'skill' is irrelevant; it surmounts to different things in different games. In CounterStrike, the 'skill' required, in its most basic level is reaction time, and accuracy of the basic motor functions required to move a pointer over a head. It can also be argued in that in the more co-ordinated games teamwork and tactics are required. This is entirely the same for World of Warcraft; and this is particularly evident in the PvP scene. as I have mentioned before, I had a far progressed guild in PvE terms, but when it comes to PvP the armour and items required are different. No one who has played World of Warcraft can argue that in PvP different armour is required than that of PvE. Me and my team partner would REPEATEDLY come against equivalent combinations (Warlock, Druid) with what is called 'straight upgrades' of our own gear. In essence, they had everything better than us, and we would beat them, repeatedly, without difficulty. This is because skill is, unquestionably, required to participate in the arena. I assume you agree that reaction time is a factor of the 'skill' required to play Counterstrike, and is certainly required in WoW too; if I saw an enemy casting, for example, as disabling effect on my teammate then I would have to react, quickly with perhaps a moonfire, or another instant spell do disrupt the cast. We would be constantly talking over Ventrilo during matches, and to suggest that teamwork and co-ordination (another 'skill' factor) is not required is simply ludicrous.
However, on the flip side it is certainly true that a horrendous amount of time has to be expended in the game if you want to achieve anything, and I certainly will not dispute the expense, or mind-numbing tedium of repeated dungeon crawls. And on another note, the game is fundamentally broken, seeing as I recently watched a video of a rogue with 103% avoidance to melé attacks.
I do not, in summary, think that the game is any worse than CounterStrike, Final Fantasy, Team Fortress, or any other game. And the case does exist that playing WoW was considerably cheaper than buying a £20 game and finishing it every month, and in WoW I met some truly great people, one of whom I would consider among my closest friends, and who I'm going with to University next year. This is not to say, however, that playing this or any other game is as good as doing something creative. Write a book, draw something, do a podcast, whatever interests you. In the time I saved from stopping WoW I invested several hundred hours learning how to use the source SDK, and released a Portal map which several thousand people have downloaded and (I hope) enjoyed. The reward from that is far better than your new Tier 6 epic Thunderheart greathelm. I assure you.
Now for a lie down...
Mr. MacRoss, I don't think we can be friends anymore.
I like strawberry and rhubarb pie.
In fact, the combination of the two can be quite enjoyable.
As for the topic at hand, debating the merits of video games can be a worthwhile endeavor. If one is trying to figure out where to spend one's time and money, one should really deeply consider it, especially with something that requires the investment of an MMO. WoW mitigates a lot of the normal MMO investment, but still, it requires a not-insignificant investment of time and money; it's certainly worth thinking about.
FCC commissioner says WoW is leading cause of college dropouts. Of course, this person has no scientific study to back this up, but it's worth discussing none the less. I can personally give plenty of anecdotal evidence of MMO addicted folk in the dorms of RIT. Someone's freshman year room-mate's Asheron's Call addition jumps to mind.
Personally, I'm done with WoW. Warhammer Online is where I'm at now; I much prefer the idea of playing a game based on massive PvP content, rather than static, predictable PvE encounters. Also, I'm a sucker for anything Warhammer related.
Anyway, games don't cause problems, it's the incompetents who can't manage their time properly who cause problems.