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Overpopulation Nation

edited October 2007 in Flamewars
Suppose there is a society that knows without a doubt it is coming close to dangerous overpopulation. If something is not done, there is no doubt that people will die from lack of resources within a generation. Suppose that society begins a mandatory sterilization program. What is your opinion of such a thing?

What if the society instead made sterilization voluntary and paid people to do it? What if the society targeted the disabled with an ad campaign to convince them to choose sterilization?

What if the society went further and paid people to commit suicide? The money would go to the family, of course. What would you think of that?

Comments

  • I don't think the human race will survive the next thousand years, unless we spread into space. There are too many accidents that can befall life on a single planet. But I'm an optimist. We will reach out to the stars.
    -Stephen Hawking
  • I would just mount a PR campaign to discourage making babies. It would work nearly as well without posing the moral quandaries.

    Also, overpopulation is a myth. We have plenty of space to fit all the people. We can all live in individual mansions that will all fit within the state of Texas. With big lawns, industrial, commercial and public space, every person could fit in the US easily. Also, we produce enough food for more than everyone on earth to eat healthily. There are also enough resources to maintain a fair standard of living for every person currently on earth. The only problem is poor distribution of resources. If we all decided to move to just one place, distribution would no longer be an issue.
  • edited October 2007
    Also, overpopulation is a myth.
    I didn't ask about overpopulation in real life. I asked you to suppose there was a society had no doubt that overpopulation was going to be a problem for itself.

    Also, are you suggesting that there is no such phenomenon as overpopulation? Whether or not you believe that humanity will need to deal with overpopulation in real life, you surely must admit that the condition can occur.
    Actual examples can, in fact, be found of the results of human overpopulation. In Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed, Jared Diamond pieces together the data to argue that it was overpopulation that led the now recovering inhabitants of Easter Island (a.k.a. Rapa Nui) to destroy their once beautiful island paradise.

    “ From circa AD 1000 to circa 1650/1700 AD, Rapa Nui's population increased significantly. Some estimate the population reached a high of 10,000 or even 15,000. Moai carving and transport were in full swing from 1400 to 1650, less than 100 years before the first recorded European visitors to the island. By the late nineteenth century the population had fallen to a low of 132. Deforestation, civil wars, European diseases and slave raiding all contributed to the population crash. Core sampling and archaeology from the island has revealed a slice of Rapa Nui history that speaks of deforestation, extinction of native bird populations, soil depletion, and erosion as well as loss of access to deep sea fish as wood became scarce. From this devastating ecological scenario it is not hard to imagine the resulting overpopulation, food shortages, and ultimate collapse of Rapa Nui society. Evidence of cannibalism at that time is present on the island, though very scant. Van Tilburg cautiously asserts, "The archaeological evidence for cannibalism is present on a few sites."
    Source.
    We have plenty of space to fit all the people.
    Overpopulation is not simply a function of the size or density of the population. Overpopulation can be determined using the ratio of population to available sustainable resources. If a given environment has a population of ten, but there is food or drinking water enough for only nine, then that environment is overpopulated; if the population is 100 individuals but there is enough food, shelter, and water for 200 for the indefinite future, then it is not. . . .

    In the context of human societies, overpopulation occurs when the population density is so great as to actually cause an impaired quality of life, serious environmental degradation, or long-term shortages of essential goods and services. This is the definition used by popular dictionaries such Merriam-Webster. Overpopulation is not merely an imbalance between the number of individuals compared to the resources needed for survival, or a ratio of population over resources, or a function of the number or density of individuals, compared to the resources (ie. food production) they need to survive
    Source.
    There are also enough resources to maintain a fair standard of living for every person currently on earth. The only problem is poor distribution of resources. If we all decided to move to just one place, distribution would no longer be an issue.
    It should be noted that if developing countries were to consume resources and produce pollution at the current U.S. per-capita level, it would require several planet Earths just to sustain their economies.
    Source.
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • To answer directly to your question, as a 17 year old who only knows about this through social studies and some other things...

    I would do a voluntary sterilization with cash or other benefits... with perhaps a higher bonus for genetically disabled/diseased peoples (those with severe arthritis and other genetic disorders). I do not believe in things being mandatory, like conscription.

    In my mind, the main people who would go have sterilization would probably be those low on cash (poverty stricken people) or those who need money for drugs of some sort. *

    For those who wish to actually raise children, I'd encourage them to adopt by dropping the prices (to adopt) and give benefits, even for healthy children.**

    * - Reading this over, I think this might be a little bit of nasty from me... I despise drugs/alcohol because of the effects it has on a lot of people, and it's really hammered home when I talk to one friend who is, in my opinion, throwing her life way for a bit of partying.
    ** - As far as I understand, in Canada at least, to adopt healthy children you must pay a rather large sum of money. If you adopt a special needs child (whether that ranges from severe disability to hunger-stricken children or just the medically/mentally disabled, I'm unsure...) you receive money from the government. Again, unsure.
  • If there really were more people than there were available resources for those people, I'd most likely just do nothing. It would be the same as when there are too many deer in an area. Some of them go hungry and die. They keep on dying and fighting until you reach a state where there are more than enough resources for those remaining. Eventually if there are no resources left, and no new resources, we're all screwed anyway. Sterilizing people will only delay the inevitable.
  • I think Joe is speaking of localized over-population while Scott is talking about global over-population.
  • I think Joe is speaking of localized over-population while Scott is talking about global over-population.
    Localized overpopulation can be solved by moving people around. No need for death.
  • I think Joe is speaking of localized over-population while Scott is talking about global over-population.
    Localized overpopulation can be solved by moving people around. No need for death.
    Not if there is no where to go (think hamster cage).


  • Not if there is no where to go (think hamster cage).
    Then it is effectively the same as global, and will sort itself out.


  • Not if there is no where to go (think hamster cage).
    Then it is effectively the same as global, and will sort itself out.
    No, global is a hamster cage with an open door (open space is available just needs work done to build housing/farms). Local overpopulation is when the hamster cage door is closed (Rapa Nui) or the nearest hamster cage is not easily reached to off-load population units too.

  • No, global is a hamster cage with an open door (open space is available just needs work done to build housing/farms). Local overpopulation is when the hamster cage door is closed (Rapa Nui) or the nearest hamster cage is not easily reached to off-load population units too.
    If there is space that you can work to make available, then there isn't any overpopulation.
  • I think the issue is that there is local overpopulation in regards to the resources and economies of local areas.  It's always bothered me that, even in an industrialized society, the people with the least means to support children tend to reproduce the most.
  • I think the issue is that there is local overpopulation in regards to the resources and economies of local areas.  It's always bothered me that, even in an industrialized society, the people with the least means to support children tend to reproduce the most.

    It's because the people who can afford to have children do not want to compromise their lifestlye.
  • It's always bothered me that, even in an industrialized society, the people with the least means to support children tend to reproduce the most.
    So - maybe even without the supposition of the society posited above, maybe we can talk about whether it would be appropriate to give the people you describe a monetary award for being voluntarily sterilized.

    If they accepted the money, they would be in better financial shape, and their potential children might be spared suffering and misery. So would that be a good policy?
  • RymRym
    edited October 2007
     
    If they accepted the money, they would be in better financial shape, and their potential children might be spared suffering and misery. So would that be a good policy?
    I see no moral problems with eugenics or population control that is 100% voluntary.  My only worry is that many people might make short-sighted decisions for a quick buck, but find themselves wanting children later.  Of course, those people probably shouldn't be having children anyway if they're so short-sighted, but still...
     
    The key word is voluntary.
    Post edited by Rym on
  • Yeah, I'm with Rym. Offering people money to do things, or charging them money to do other things (like taxes on tobacco) is no problem. People still have freedom to do as they please. They are in complete control of their decisions. If they make a decision they later regret because of monetary incentive, that's their own damn fault.
  • edited October 2007
    China has their "one child" policy which has been "reported" to lead to a lot of infanticide when a daughter is born. I don't know how much I believe that because there obviously are Chinese woman giving birth over there.

    Though a population program does make sense I fear that the minorities of the world would be against it simply because they would see it as the "rich white guy" trying to keep them down. If you were only allowed to have one kid then population levels would remain constant and a minority would forever be a minority. There would be some variance for mixed race relationships.

    The other problem is that the poor tend to make more babies based on the old "farm" mentality. The more kids you have the more income producers you have in the family. The poor look at a kid and see a potential income producer while the rich see it as a potential income drain.

    Why do I say this? A rich child is far more likely to go to college and require expensive things while growing up. A poor child will go without more things because they have never known the same level of comfort a rich kid has.

    Example: I have an only child who is spoiled (by my reckoning) and gets more "stuff" than she needs. I have a friend with 5 kids and those kids are lucky to get anything. Most of the things they get are hand-me-downs or fall under group ownership rules.

    Growing up my family had one Atari 2600 for the whole family. Each of us kids got one game when we got the system and if we were lucky we would get one game on our birthday, but that was it. Today we have a Wii in the house and 10+ games. My daughter has a ton of DS games and can wrangle about one a month out of her mother.

    I never turn the AC on in my car, I just roll down the windows. My wife ALWAYS uses the AC.

    Because of these realities it costs far more money to raise a rich kid than a poor kid. In turn a poor kid becomes a "profit center" at a much earlier age than a rich kid. Tell me Scrym, are all of your college loans paid off? Joe, how long after you got out of school did it take to pay off your college loans? What about that "poor" kid doing landscaping for $15 an hour?

    Didn't India have a "vasectomy for a transistor radio" program years ago?
    Post edited by HMTKSteve on
  • Tell me Scrym, are all of your college loans paid off?Mine are almost entirely paid off.  In fact, I'm entirely free of meaningful debt.
    The problem with China's policy is that it's not voluntary.  Dictating what people do with their bodies among consenting peers, be that making a child or otherwise, should never be restricted.  It can and often should, however, be subject to voluntary encouragement.
  • Voluntary encouragement? Isn't that what the IRS tax code says?


  • Not if there is no where to go (think hamster cage).
    Then it is effectively the same as global, and will sort itself out.
    No, global is a hamster cage with an open door (open space is available just needs work done to build housing/farms). Local overpopulation is when the hamster cage door is closed (Rapa Nui) or the nearest hamster cage is not easily reached to off-load population units too.
    What? That doesn't really make sense to me. If there IS space to which a population could migrate, it WILL migrate there, regardless of whether or not there is work that has to be done to make the space livable. Even if it's not EASILY reached, it is reachable, and those populations that migrate there and make it livable will thrive. Darwin, etc.
  • My only worry is that many people might make short-sighted decisions for a quick buck, but find themselves wanting children later.  Of course, those people probably shouldn't be having children anyway if they're so short-sighted, but still...The key word is voluntary.
    How voluntary would the decision be if a person is strapped, in debt, looking at eviction, hungry, and so forth? Is the ability to reproduce an inalienable right that deserves protection? Would it be acceptable to you to offer such people money for their bodily organs?
  • You kind of need your organs to function as a normal human being. Well, only one kidney, I guess. You get the point.


  • Not if there is no where to go (think hamster cage).
    Then it is effectively the same as global, and will sort itself out.
    No, global is a hamster cage with an open door (open space is available just needs work done to build housing/farms). Local overpopulation is when the hamster cage door is closed (Rapa Nui) or the nearest hamster cage is not easily reached to off-load population units too.
    What? That doesn't really make sense to me. If there IS space to which a population could migrate, it WILL migrate there, regardless of whether or not there is work that has to be done to make the space livable. Even if it's not EASILY reached, it is reachable, and those populations that migrate there and make it livable will thrive. Darwin, etc.
    Let's say you live an island in the middle of the ocean. You know there are other islands but the island you live on lacks the resources to build a seaworthy vessel. You can build outriggers but only a few. You are living in a hamster cage.

    Even though there are other lands in existence you have no way of getting people to them in great enough quantities to put a dent in your population.
  • edited October 2007
    You kind of need your organs to function as a normal human being. Well, only one kidney, I guess. You get the point.
    Calls to legalize organ selling
    China selling prisoner organs

    Remember Baron Karza's Body Banks?
    Post edited by HungryJoe on


  • Not if there is no where to go (think hamster cage).
    Then it is effectively the same as global, and will sort itself out.
    No, global is a hamster cage with an open door (open space is available just needs work done to build housing/farms). Local overpopulation is when the hamster cage door is closed (Rapa Nui) or the nearest hamster cage is not easily reached to off-load population units too.
    What? That doesn't really make sense to me. If there IS space to which a population could migrate, it WILL migrate there, regardless of whether or not there is work that has to be done to make the space livable. Even if it's not EASILY reached, it is reachable, and those populations that migrate there and make it livable will thrive. Darwin, etc.
    Let's say you live an island in the middle of the ocean. You know there are other islands but the island you live on lacks the resources to build a seaworthy vessel. You can build outriggers but only a few. You are living in a hamster cage.

    Even though there are other lands in existence you have no way of getting people to them in great enough quantities to put a dent in your population.
    If I had enough resources to build a few small outriggers, I have enough resources to build a larger vessel with a better chance of getting to another island. I could then have access to another spot with more resources. If I had a small population, I could distribute them among the two islands to reduce resource burden, and maybe start putting together resources to make seaworthy vessels capable of getting even farther; how do you think the ancient Polynesians did it? The only scenarios in which you could not escape your location are 1) a 100% lack of resources (in which case, you can't really survive where you are) or 2) absolutely no available space in which to move (global overpopulation).

    Local overpopulation occurs not because a population CAN'T move, but rather occurs because they don't HAVE to move. Only when a person's survival is threatened will they consider leaving their surroundings, and humans have quite a knack for figuring out how to survive in many different situations. In other words, a population will figure out a way to survive where it is before it tries somewhere else; if someone can survive somewhere, someone WILL survive there, period, irrespective of how terrible the rest of us may consider that existence to be.

  • Local overpopulation occurs not because a population CAN'T move, but rather occurs because they don't HAVE to move.
    What happens when the time comes that the population has to move, but there aren't enough resources to make moving possible. For example, earth is out of resources, but we don't have enough fuel to make rockets.
  • How voluntary would the decision be if a person is strapped, in debt, looking at eviction, hungry, and so forth? Is the ability to reproduce an inalienable right that deserves protection? Would it be acceptable to you to offer such people money for their bodily organs?
    By that argument, couldn't you say sperm banks/egg donation are "involuntary"? Many people donate sperm for the same reasons you list, and they give up control of their genes. Is that right?

  • Local overpopulation occurs not because a population CAN'T move, but rather occurs because they don't HAVE to move.
    What happens when the time comes that the population has to move, but there aren't enough resources to make moving possible. For example, earth is out of resources, but we don't have enough fuel to make rockets.
    You're screwed in that case. As I said, you only can't move when you're absolutely out of resources. If there are ANY resources available that COULD be utilized to move any population of a size greater than zero, then those resources will be utilized when they have to be.


  • You're screwed in that case. As I said, you only can't move when you're absolutely out of resources. If there are ANY resources available that COULD be utilized to move any population of a size greater than zero, then those resources will be utilized when they have to be.
    But then no non-nomadic society will ever make it. They will not attempt to move until they need to move. They will not need to move until they have used all their resources for surviving. If they have used all their resources for surviving, they won't have any for moving.
  • How voluntary would the decision be if a person is strapped, in debt, looking at eviction, hungry, and so forth? Is the ability to reproduce an inalienable right that deserves protection? Would it be acceptable to you to offer such people money for their bodily organs?
    By that argument, couldn't you say sperm banks/egg donation are "involuntary"? Many people donate sperm for the same reasons you list, and they give up control of their genes. Is that right?
    The main difference is that an unaltered person can always make more. Sterilization would be much more permanent.
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