You can earn so many more braggin rights doing a lot of other things than beating Guitar Hero songs on expert.
No way dude... I have a friend that has a friend that said if you get a perfect score on all the songs it solves world hunger.. Though it still doesn't pull us out of Iraq. You need to beat Ninja Gaiden Black using only shirkens for that to happen.
In Metal Gear Solid 3 (when skipping every bit of story) I tried to beat the whole game without being seen or killing anyone
Or getting all the dog tags... Or finding funny things, which are EVERYWHERE. You don't need the XBox achievement system to have fun playing games in different and challenging ways.
No one ever, ever, ever said that. The discussion was always "they add more, cool!" not "games are shit, achievements are here, rejoice". Mario Galaxy looks amazing and it's got no achievements but I'm sure it'll be fun as hell. Would you complain if when you got all the stars you got some trophies or something? I think the difference is that he stopped playing Pokemon some time ago, while you're still playing WoW. ^_~
I think MMO's are pointless. You gain nothing.
Posted By: Rym Myonlycomplaint is that sometimes the achievements are uninspired or could have been handled in a less lazy, direct way.
you mean like beating hard or expert on GH3 with a 360 controller?
Yeah.
So you need motivation to play a game?
Yeah. You proved yourself wrong. The fun IS THE MOTIVATION. Still, I don't get why you can't comprehend more fun in games. does it really add so much to make the difference between playing and not playing?
I got more playtime out of doing crazy things in Crackdown than I ever would have without achievements. Also, Gears of War's online achievements inspired me to go online and nab a couple after I decided I was done with that game. I still play Gears a year later because I'm close to getting some of these achievements. I had fun doing it too. Listen people. If bragging rights make things so much more fun, why are you playing video games? You can earn so many more braggin rights doing a lot of other things than beating Guitar Hero songs on expert.
Because it adds to your gaming experience. What's wrong with that? Why is that such a problem for you? People enjoy having a great time while gaming and if they want to nab some trophies on the way, why not? Why is that grounds for stopping playing games and finding something else to brag about?
You've proved yourself wrong already, dude. It all comes down to the fun. You get more of it. Period. Though it still doesn't pull us out of Iraq. You need to beat Ninja Gaiden Black using only shirkens for that to happen.
If there's a draft, I'm moving to Canada.
Oh, yeah. :D
Scott, I am not talking about motivation to play a game, I am talking about motivation to play a game again. That's why I gave the TMNT game as an example of how achievements should not be incorporated into games.
I have beaten Half-Life 2 like 4 times before The Orange Box came around, and if it wasn't for the achievements and the challenging two bits in the game, the aforementioned Ravenholm with Gravity Gun only and Sandtraps without touching the sand, I would probably not have bothered to play it again. The same goes for Episode 1.
I also find the example of Portal rather interesting, as the game includes achievements for doing the advanced maps or the challenge modes. It's not me personally, but I believe that there were a few XBox players who would have just left them by the wayside or given up halfway through these without the additional motivation of the gamerscore they would earn for it.
...or more, even, if you don't complete it.
The Orange Box came around, and if it wasn't for the achievements and the challenging two bits in the game, the aforementioned Ravenholm with Gravity Gun only and Sandtraps without touching the sand, I would probably not have bothered to play it again.
I looked for that singing Vortigaunt forever for that achievement.
At worst, achievements are another thing for nerds to lord over other nerds. Of course, nerds will lord ANYTHING over other nerds, so that doesn't really affect anything.
At best, achievements make you play the game in a way you didn't necessarily think was possible, encouraging lateral thinking. Think about the achievement in Half-Life 2: Ep 2 for destroying all those striders without losing a building. The fact that the achievement exists gives you a metric by which to judge your improvement in skill; getting that one is FUCKING HARD, and if you do it, you know you're rocking the game and really thinking laterally.
If achievements are done properly, as they are in the Orange Box games, then they only ADD more to the game. They're not something you HAVE to get in order to progress, nor are they necessarily the goal in and of themselves; they're little enticements to play the game again in a different way.
Scott, are you proposing achievements be removed from games, or simply that people ignore them?
[...] Having an icon pop up when you beat the bonus mode, is just a pop up. In fact, I see it detracting from the game in some ways. You're playing a game totally immersed in the world of the game, then this pop up bring you out to the meta, the world outside the game.[...]
And how are health meters and ammo meters different? Just because they supply useful information? Would you prefer there be a little screen in the elevator that displays your statistics, in the same way that the big sign on the wall at the beginning of each test chamber informs you of your progress and the dangers that await you?
I think what he means is that the pop up isn't directly connected to the game. The health meter is telling you something useful about the game (and doesn't just pop up out of nowhere) where as the achievement doesn't feel like part of the game; its overlaid on top. What you suggested might not be so bad. Having areas where you can chill out and check your stats instead of them appearing in the middle of the action and disrupting everything would be more conductive to good gaming.
On the whole subject of achievements on one hand you have punk kids saying they are no1 on the server when there is no way of checking and when you can check they will try as hard as possible to make it so as now being high ranked can be seen by all. You can't win.
Granted, some games handle achievements better than others.
Phantasy Star Universe? Bad. Good for gamerscore, but bad in that you beat the single player game? Awesome, here's all 1000 points. And that carries no meaning whatsoever.
Halo 3? Eh. Some of the achievements are kind of vague and inconsistent in how they're earned *cough*multiplayer kill achievements*cough*. But the achievements do speak to the sort of level player you are.
Ultimately, achievements are another tool for developers to, ideally, keep the carrot in front of us as we run that gaming treadmill. These rewards, in return, provide proof to back up our badassery, our reliance on GameFAQs, or even just that we've beaten a game.
However, it would be great if there were more tangible rewards attached to achievements than the number and icon. H3, for example, provides new armor once you've hit 500 points in the game, and the full Hayabusa armor with 1000 and all skulls. Because of course, if you can pull that off, you ARE a ninja. But regardless, that sort of rewards system is great, and I only wish more devs would do it.
I guess I'm just bothered by the fact that we have people spending lots of time doing effectively nothing in order to earn artificial rewards. It's like I see all these people lining up to sit in skinner boxes as if it's the greatest thing ever. However, the skinner boxes they are going to only offer fake food. At least go to a skinner box with real food and get fed!
Doesn't that sum up video games in general though? People do effectively nothing for hours of their lives so they can get a pat on the head and a "A winner is you!" after completing the game.
Doesn't that sum up video games in general though? People do effectively nothing for hours of their lives so they can get a pat on the head and a "A winner is you!" after completing the game.
Yes, many people play games like that, but I'm not one of them.
Comments
Though it still doesn't pull us out of Iraq. You need to beat Ninja Gaiden Black using only shirkens for that to happen.
Or getting all the dog tags... Or finding funny things, which are EVERYWHERE. You don't need the XBox achievement system to have fun playing games in different and challenging ways.
No one ever, ever, ever said that. The discussion was always "they add more, cool!" not "games are shit, achievements are here, rejoice". Mario Galaxy looks amazing and it's got no achievements but I'm sure it'll be fun as hell. Would you complain if when you got all the stars you got some trophies or something? I think the difference is that he stopped playing Pokemon some time ago, while you're still playing WoW. ^_~
I think MMO's are pointless. You gain nothing.
Posted By: Rym Myonlycomplaint is that sometimes the achievements are uninspired or could have been handled in a less lazy, direct way.
you mean like beating hard or expert on GH3 with a 360 controller?
Yeah.
So you need motivation to play a game?
Yeah. You proved yourself wrong. The fun IS THE MOTIVATION. Still, I don't get why you can't comprehend more fun in games. does it really add so much to make the difference between playing and not playing?
I got more playtime out of doing crazy things in Crackdown than I ever would have without achievements. Also, Gears of War's online achievements inspired me to go online and nab a couple after I decided I was done with that game. I still play Gears a year later because I'm close to getting some of these achievements. I had fun doing it too. Listen people. If bragging rights make things so much more fun, why are you playing video games? You can earn so many more braggin rights doing a lot of other things than beating Guitar Hero songs on expert.
Because it adds to your gaming experience. What's wrong with that? Why is that such a problem for you? People enjoy having a great time while gaming and if they want to nab some trophies on the way, why not? Why is that grounds for stopping playing games and finding something else to brag about?
You've proved yourself wrong already, dude. It all comes down to the fun. You get more of it. Period. Though it still doesn't pull us out of Iraq. You need to beat Ninja Gaiden Black using only shirkens for that to happen.
If there's a draft, I'm moving to Canada.
Oh, yeah. :D
I have beaten Half-Life 2 like 4 times before The Orange Box came around, and if it wasn't for the achievements and the challenging two bits in the game, the aforementioned Ravenholm with Gravity Gun only and Sandtraps without touching the sand, I would probably not have bothered to play it again. The same goes for Episode 1.
I also find the example of Portal rather interesting, as the game includes achievements for doing the advanced maps or the challenge modes. It's not me personally, but I believe that there were a few XBox players who would have just left them by the wayside or given up halfway through these without the additional motivation of the gamerscore they would earn for it.
...or more, even, if you don't complete it.
The Orange Box came around, and if it wasn't for the achievements and the challenging two bits in the game, the aforementioned Ravenholm with Gravity Gun only and Sandtraps without touching the sand, I would probably not have bothered to play it again.
I looked for that singing Vortigaunt forever for that achievement.
You used to gain something when you were able to sell in-game items to newbs.
At best, achievements make you play the game in a way you didn't necessarily think was possible, encouraging lateral thinking. Think about the achievement in Half-Life 2: Ep 2 for destroying all those striders without losing a building. The fact that the achievement exists gives you a metric by which to judge your improvement in skill; getting that one is FUCKING HARD, and if you do it, you know you're rocking the game and really thinking laterally.
If achievements are done properly, as they are in the Orange Box games, then they only ADD more to the game. They're not something you HAVE to get in order to progress, nor are they necessarily the goal in and of themselves; they're little enticements to play the game again in a different way.
[...] Having an icon pop up when you beat the bonus mode, is just a pop up. In fact, I see it detracting from the game in some ways. You're playing a game totally immersed in the world of the game, then this pop up bring you out to the meta, the world outside the game.[...]
And how are health meters and ammo meters different? Just because they supply useful information? Would you prefer there be a little screen in the elevator that displays your statistics, in the same way that the big sign on the wall at the beginning of each test chamber informs you of your progress and the dangers that await you?
What you suggested might not be so bad. Having areas where you can chill out and check your stats instead of them appearing in the middle of the action and disrupting everything would be more conductive to good gaming.
On the whole subject of achievements on one hand you have punk kids saying they are no1 on the server when there is no way of checking and when you can check they will try as hard as possible to make it so as now being high ranked can be seen by all. You can't win.
Phantasy Star Universe? Bad. Good for gamerscore, but bad in that you beat the single player game? Awesome, here's all 1000 points. And that carries no meaning whatsoever.
Halo 3? Eh. Some of the achievements are kind of vague and inconsistent in how they're earned *cough*multiplayer kill achievements*cough*. But the achievements do speak to the sort of level player you are.
Ultimately, achievements are another tool for developers to, ideally, keep the carrot in front of us as we run that gaming treadmill. These rewards, in return, provide proof to back up our badassery, our reliance on GameFAQs, or even just that we've beaten a game.
However, it would be great if there were more tangible rewards attached to achievements than the number and icon. H3, for example, provides new armor once you've hit 500 points in the game, and the full Hayabusa armor with 1000 and all skulls. Because of course, if you can pull that off, you ARE a ninja. But regardless, that sort of rewards system is great, and I only wish more devs would do it.
Please explain.