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Mac Pro

AprecheApreche
edited January 2008 in Technology
Normally when there's a new Mac I always say the same thing. I go on about how you can get basically the same computer for less money by building it on Newegg. However, the new Mac Pro has two quad cores. That's 8 cores. I can't even find a motherboard that can do that on Newegg. Part of me says I should buy one of these, but I'm going to hold out. I need those monies to pay off my car. I don't see a new desktop in my future for another year or two. If the Apple offering at that time is anything like this, I might have to go for it.
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Comments

  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    Didn't you guys say a quad is useless on a desktop not too long ago? My friend and I fully spec'd a Mac Pro out a little while ago for shits and giggles and the total was over $16K. My brother's computer has a single quad intel in it and that should be enough computing power for all but the 3D graphic arts render.
  • AprecheApreche
    edited January 2008
    Well, now the new Mac Pro is $3k, not $16k. Usually I would say that 8 cores is indeed overkill. However, if I were to buy this machine, I would be replacing my desktop as well as the server on my bedroom floor. Also, I'd use VMWare Fusion so that I could continue running Linux and Windows without rebooting.

    The tech world has developed in such a way where I need Windows to play games, I need Linux to do actual work, and I need OSX to manage my music and my iPod. All I need to do my every day computing is Firefox, which is available on all three OSes. Because of this insane machine I can actually get the best of all three worlds at the same time without rebooting.

    For most people it is overkill. For me, I would have it running a web server, running a database server, running a file server, playing an fps on Steam, bittorrenting, iTunesing, and instant messaging all at the same time. I would also have Firefox open somewhere eating up resources. I still don't think I'm going to go for it, but I have to give it careful consideration.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    Well for $3K you only get 8 cores ("only" lol), 2 gigs of memory, a ATI 2600XT, and a single 320GB HD. Doesn't even come with a monitor. You want 4 gigs of memory, sure, no prob, that'll be $500.

    Now, in late august my brother built his gaming PC on newegg., this computer was just over $2000
    - 2.4 intel quad
    - 4 gigs 800MHz DDR2
    - 8800 GTS 320
    - 2 250GB HDs for RAID 0
    - Vista Business
    - totally awesome 21 inch widerscreen LCD

    I really don't know how much of a load a web and database server would put on a computer, but I can say with confidence that computer would have no trouble running a file server, bit torrent, itunes, IM, and play any game you want to. Hell, I can do that on my old dual AMD. And you certainly don't need 3 OSes to do that, itunes runs in windows. If you wanna run a bunch of virtual machines, you're gonna need RAM, and Apple will totally bend you over in that regard.
  • AprecheApreche
    edited January 2008
    First, I can buy RAM on Newegg. I don't need to get the RAM from Apple. Second, I already have monitors and all that stuff. Lastly, I know iTunes works on Windows. I've used iTunes on both Mac and PC. The PC one is close, but is slightly not the same as the Mac one. Also, because we have a Mac mini in the living room there would be a seamless integration between my personal desktop where the media is stored and the living room where it is watched.

    I can pretty much guarantee this isn't going to happen. At least probably not in the next year or so. But for the first time, Apple has actually made a product that destroyed my expectations, and actually seems to kick general ass, on paper at least.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • Mr. EricMr. Eric
    Why don't you just make 3 computers and hook them all up to the same moniter, then have a push-button thing to switch each tower to the moniter? That would still be cheaper than 3,000.
  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    I'm curious as to how you intend to run 3 OSes and play modern video games that require 3d graphics. Your primary OS would have to be windows. Still 8 cores is overkill even for what you wanna do.
  • AprecheApreche
    I'm curious as to how you intend to run 3 OSes and play modern video games that require 3d graphics. Your primary OS would have to be windows. Still 8 cores is overkill even for what you wanna do.
    VmWare Fusion.
    Why don't you just make 3 computers and hook them all up to the same moniter, then have a push-button thing to switch each tower to the moniter? That would still be cheaper than 3,000.
    Have you looked at the price of quality KVM switches? Also, that's a cabling mess, it's loud, it takes up too much room, and the electric bill is through the roof.
  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    edited January 2008
    Any virtualization software has almost no support for video card virtualization. VmWare Fusion is probably the best in this regard, but it only allows you to run DirectX 8.1 games. So that limits you to things like the original Max Payne and such. So if you wanna play games you gotta run Windows.

    EDIT
    Seems they've moved the support up to include DX 9.0, but it's unclear if that is 9.0 a, b, or c.
    Post edited by George Patches on
  • AprecheApreche
    edited January 2008
    Any virtualization software has almost no support for video card virtualization. VmWare Fusion is probably the best in this regard, but it only allows you to run DirectX 8.1 games. So that limits you to things like the original Max Payne and such. So if you wanna play games you gotta run Windows.
    Considering that most of the games I want to play are Steam games, that's not a problem. Also, VMWare Fusion can allow you to virtualize your boot camp Windows XP installation. This way you won't need two separate Windows setups if you want to dual boot and also virtualize. I did just realize that if I want to replace the DNS/DHCP server, dual booting is out of the question.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    The most amazing bit is that I wrote a huge paper on virtualization technology 3 month ago. At that time I had the same idea you do, I'm going to virtualize everything and never reboot, etc. However, at that time it was completely impossible to play games on a virtual machine. VM Ware seems to have completely rewritten the rule book.
  • AprecheApreche
    edited January 2008
    VM Ware seems to have completely rewritten the rule book.
    Yes, Virtualization has been making leaps and bounds recently. I use VMWare player, the free version of VMware, on my Core2Duo at work (only 1 gig of RAM) to test web sites in IE. It works astonishingly well.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • OmnutiaOmnutia
    edited January 2008
    I need OSX to manage my music and my iPod
    I appreciate that you've gone to all the trouble of getting your filing system sorted out but Amarok is seriously super and the iPod integration is good too, it will add songs and podcasts (podcatcher included) and there are also linux programs that can add the various other things such as videos and audiobooks.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • AprecheApreche
    I need OSX to manage my music and my iPod
    I appreciate that you've gone to all the trouble of getting your filing system sorted out but Amarok is seriously super and the iPod integration is good too, it will add songs and podcasts (podcatcher included) and there are also linux programs that can add the various other things such as videos and audiobooks.
    I've used the Amarok with the iPod. It's good, it works, but it's not iTunes good.
  • SailSail
    edited January 2008
    Amarok only barely works for iPod management. My experience has been that if you add a song to your iPod and then go to play it, it adds about thirty blank seconds at the end of the track. iTunes is still very necessary if you own an iPod.
    Post edited by Sail on
  • OmnutiaOmnutia
    edited January 2008
    Duely noted. Have you tried looking up that problem and fixing it?
    I found this list and Floola looks good.
    [Edit]Ooh ooh, Floola lets you play the music from your iPod using a program on your iPod, I could save a few gigs and use it in Windows and Linux.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • ThaedThaed
    This is quite interesting to me as I am in the market for a new machine. The graphics card is wimpy and would have to be replaced. I am already running 4 computers on a KVM. This isn't the horrorshow Scott describes. I think of these computers as my children.

    This is my current future build:
    Qty. Product Description Savings Total Price
    1 Microsoft Windows Vista 32-Bit Home Premium for System Builders Single Pack DVD
    $109.99
    1 LITE-ON 20X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model LH-20A1L-06
    $37.99
    4 Western Digital Caviar GP WD10EACS 1TB 5400 to 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
    -$10.00 Instant
    $1,039.96
    $999.96
    ($1,039.96 each)
    1 OCZ Gold 4GB(2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model OCZ2G8004GK
    -$10.00 Instant
    -$20.00 Mail-in Rebate
    $103.99
    $93.99
    1 EVGA 512-P3-N841-A3 GeForce 8800GTS (G92) 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card
    -$20.00 Mail-in Rebate
    $359.99
    1 ZALMAN 9500A 92mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler
    -$15.00 Instant
    $63.99
    $48.99
    1 Thermaltake Purepower W0100RU ATX 12V 2.0 500W Power Supply
    -$15.00 Instant
    -$20.00 Mail-in Rebate
    $69.99
    $54.99
    1 ASUS MAXIMUS FORMULA LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Intel Motherboard
    $259.99
    1 Intel Core2 Quad Glitter Lamp - Quad-Core GiftIntel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz LGA 775 Quad-Core Processor Model BX80562Q6600
    -$5.00 Instant
    -$29.99 Combo
    $309.98
    $274.99
    Grand Total: $2,240.88
    Add all items to your cart
  • SycarSycar
    I am going to get the new mac pro. It is a good deal add the nvidia 8800 and you are at $3k for EIGHT cores. I can use all cores because I do CG work. I rather do that and have a stable osx environment than have to work around windows.
  • AprecheApreche
    I am going to get the new mac pro. It is a good deal add the nvidia 8800 and you are at $3k for EIGHT cores. I can use all cores because I do CG work. I rather do that and have a stable osx environment than have to work around windows.
    Let me know how the VMWare Fusion works.
  • SycarSycar
    Sure but I use it now on my iMac and MacbookPro. Works great and it has come a long way. If I want to play a steam game I reboot into bootcamp. I used to use Parallels too both are great but it is a battle of the patches one week one of them works better than the other and so on... Last I heard though they work with the same level of quality. Trying to do any CG work in either program does not work very well though.
  • AprecheApreche
    Trying to do any CG work in either program does not work very well though.
    Yes, but I would like to see if that is still true when you have 8 goddamn cores.
  • SycarSycar
    Oh yes me too! It will cut my render times in half maybe even more.
  • ThaedThaed
    It bugs me that this damn thing is a Mac. I have an iMac and it has done nothing but piss me off. At the same time, like Scott says, it's the only thing out now with 8 cores. That solves a lot of problems. The chips are Xeons, however. Does anyone know if this creates compatibility problems? Xeons are normally not used for desktops.

    God, I might hate myself if I buy another Mac... Intel is rumored to be releasing its 8 core chip at the end of '08.
  • SycarSycar
    What problems have you had? I rarely have any but I don't think Xeons should make compatibility problems. Some programs might have to be recompiled for the 45nm core but they should still work.
  • AprecheApreche
    Some programs might have to be recompiled for the 45nm core but they should still work.
    You don't have to recompile anything for 45nm.
  • SycarSycar
    Oh thats good.
  • ThaedThaed
    My major iMac problem is that it's a G5! I bought it a year before Apple went to Intel.

    So the fastest PC money can buy is now a Mac. Sigh. I'm trying to stay under $3k for my next flagship machine. I also want 4 TB of HD storage in RAID 5. Adding that to the Mac Pro would make it god-awful expensive. I suspect that when I pull the trigger (in late January or February), it won't be on the Mac Pro. I just have to keep telling myself that nothing optimizes for 8 cores now anyway.
  • TaselTasel
    Keep in mind (although purist would disagree) you need not purchase hard drives and RAM from Apple. That drastically reduces the cost if you want to sup up those things.
  • ThaedThaed
    It looks like that you will soon be able to build your own dual quadcore system on NewEgg. It would make sense. If this happens, buying the Mac Pro would be a mistake.
  • AprecheApreche
    It looks like that you will soon be able tobuild your owndual quadcore system on NewEgg. It would make sense. If this happens, buying the Mac Pro would be a mistake.
    While that's great and all, I don't see it making a big difference. The power of 8 cores is only part of the equation here.

    Let's say I built an 8-core machine on Newegg for less than the cost of the Mac Pro. Alright. My options now are I can dual-boot Windows and Linux, and apply some VMware (or equivalent) to the situation. That's nice, but it's no different than what I have now. I still have to dock my iPod downstairs in the living room. The computer will still probably be loud as hell. It requires an extra large WATX case. I want smaller and quieter, not bigger and louder. Also, the article you linked to says something about prices starting above $4,000. Even if you add the overpriced RAM, the Mac Pro is still less than that.

    The Mac Pro is alluring not because of VMWare Fusion. With that, I would be able to use Adium and iTunes on OSX, use Ubuntu to get real work done, and play my games on Steam without the need to reboot ever. The 8-cores are only important because it makes that setup feasible. 8-cores without the VMWare Fusion are no more convenient for me than a core 2 duo.

    If I was going to put down OSX I would say that the OS is so bothersome that it isn't useful to me unless it is backed up by insane amounts of processing power to virtualize other operating systems to do real work. The problem, is that if I do just that, it creates a computing scenario that is as close to optimal as I can currently get.
  • ThaedThaed
    edited January 2008
    I see what you're saying. It really comes down (as always) to what do you need your computers to do? What you describe is appealing to me and it would cause me to grow as I have no experience with VMWare. However, you and I will always have fundamental differences in our computer needs/wants. I will always be a hobbyist and you will always be a pro. I create large amounts of data with video, pictures, audio and .pdfs. But I do zero programming. I don't do hosting now and if I had a need for it, I'd use GoDaddy. The only think I ever use OSX for is garage band and that's rarely. Plus, I already have an iMac. Instead of putting everything I do into one box, I've spread it out over many (too many) computers and that seems to be working.

    I have great confidence in computers that I build. It *seems* like the Mac Pro lets you in, but I'm not sure that I trust them. I wish I had enough cash to just buy the Mac Pro and see if it's what I want. I'd be lying if I said there wasn't something of a siren's song coming from the Mac Pro. But the cost is a once a year kind of expense. If I get it and have problems, I am essentially hosed for a year. On the other hand, I can build the machine I described above and be certain that it will do what I need it to do.
    Post edited by Thaed on
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