Atheists afraid to go into a church?

Sail

A friend called me up to ask me if he could use my bass amp(since he's been using a borrowed guitar amp for practice) for a gig and invited me to come. He said it was in a church, which he commented was kinda lame, but the auditorium was recently fitted with acoustics so it would end up being a pretty good venue after all. I asked him who else was coming and he said not many. When he mentioned to his other atheist friends that the show was going to be in a church they refused to go. Well, I just started my tirade right there.

I don't understand what an atheist would have to fear from going to a religious site. I have known other people like this before and, as an atheist myself, I could never understand it. The concert didn't even have anything to do with religion! Churches to me just look like buildings, sometimes really structurally beautiful ones. If I was standing outside the Sistine Chapel, there is no way I would not go in just because of the religious connections with the building.

What do you people think?

Railith

I think it's more of atheist not wanting to be around religious people because they feel they will be completely out of place. The same thing applies to everyone really. I'm pretty sure the old ladies at church really would not like to go to a anime or comic convention either.

Norvu

A lot of atheists also have bad memories of going to church and battling with their parents about being an atheist etc. and really don't want to be around anything that reminds them of the BS they had to go through.

Slightly off topic, but... I remember a couple of years ago sitting through a mass at a catholic church in Orlando, Florida. Went on vacation with a friend and found out we were going to a mass as we were walking towards the church, wasn't happy. I ended up sitting down in the 5th row reading my book, not standing up, not singing or anything till it was over. I still remember the grandmother of the friend I went with being a little snooty to me after that.

Kilarney

I ended up sitting down in the 5th row reading my book, not standing up, not singing or anything till it was over.

You're better off not going than being disrespectful. Even you had to go, you could have at least sat in the very back.

kiwi_bird

I just find the atmosphere in most churches disturbing. Other than that, I have better things to do in my free time than sit through church.

I've been to a folk-rock concert once in a church and it was OK, although I would have rather been in some other venue.

Apreche

I don't go into churches not out of fear, but on principle. I don't think they should exist, and if I go into one that sort of validates its existence.

Victor Frost

I don't see why an atheist should be afraid to go to a church. Uncomfortable, maybe, but afraid? No. No fear is a suitable reason to avoid good acoustics.

am_dragon

On the other side of things I'm afraid to go into some churches and I'm Christian. When we first moved to southern Missouri we had to go around and find a new church. I don't believe in stuff like speaking in tongues, fits, and many other more subtle ways people have twisted the belief in Christ. Then there's the polytheistic churches... It could be that they are not so sure there is no God and don't really want to be tested.

Rym

I avoid churches and church-sponsored events simply to avoid lending any legitimacy or respect by means of my presence: it has nothing to do with fear.

whatever

I don't see why an atheist should be afraid to go to a church. Uncomfortable, maybe, but afraid? No.

All the holiness will burn our heathen souls.

Jason

I don't see why an atheist should be afraid to go to a church. Uncomfortable, maybe, but afraid? No.

All the holiness holier-than-thou-ness will burn our heathen souls.

Fixed.

Victor Frost

I don't see why an atheist should be afraid to go to a church. Uncomfortable, maybe, but afraid? No.

All theholinessholier-than-thou-ness will burn our heathen souls.

Fixed.

Haha! Well done, Jason. Well done.

Sail

I can fully understand not going into a church when there is religion going on. But I think there have to be exceptions. Going to see a band made up of four really good friends of mine(two religious, two not) is one of them. Also weddings, funerals, and of course the Sistine Chapel to see one of the most spectacular works of painting ever.

rhinocero

I work in a church. Doesn't bother me. Of course, I have not so much the hostile attitude towards religion a lot of people in this thread seem to have, so maybe that doesn't hurt.

kage_rod

I feel apprehensive going into churches myself, but overall, I don't mind it. For a concert: definitively. I've gone to Carol of the Bells with my friends - it's a Christmas churchy thing - and ended up having a great time; although it amused my friend when they did the Lords Prayer and I could not find the stupid thing -anywhere-.

They told me afterwards that they memorized it and laughed. A lot.

However, her church is United; it allows gays pastors and is one of the few types of churches that'll allow gay weddings, and they're basically very slack and will allow anyone in. If it was any other church, I wouldn't of been able to attend; I'd be pissed off because I refuse to help organizations who discriminate.

Sir_Xander

I'm not afraid of churches at all. My parents have dragged me to church for the last 16 years, so churches no effect on me either way. The only reason I go is so that they won't bother me about it. I see how they're afraid of the 'afterlife', but I'm not. If I die; so be it, I can't change that. If I don't, I get another day to screw with people. My church would probably not allow rock(of any type) concerts, but if it was a genre I cared to listen to, I'd most likely go.

merry_minstrel

I'm a nihilist, but I actually like most churches around where I live. And one of the most awesome concerts I ever went to was Bach's Christmas Oratorio in a Gothic-style cathedral.
Furthermore, I rather like beer brewed in monasteries, and I have absolutely no second thoughts about buying it. Actually, I'd rather support a monastery than a corporation buying small breweries. Christian beer > capitalist beer.
Whatever your thoughts about god and religion may be, there is no reason to be dogmatic about it in either direction.
Furthermore, science and religion/philosophy are two distinct things, and anyone who gets the two mixed up sucks.

TheWhaleShark

Actually, I'm somewhat interested in churches now, but more from a behavioral science standpoint moreso than anything else. You see, about 3 weeks ago, I had to go to Long Island for my grandfather's funeral. He was an Italian Catholic, so the full services lasted 3 days (2 days of waking, 1 day of actual funeral), and the actual funeral service involved a Catholic mass.

Now, I had not been to a Catholic mass, or any religious service, in over a decade, and I was rather happy about that. Being an atheist, I have no reason to waste an hour each Sunday playing an advanced version of Simon Says. However, to support my mother and aunt, I sat through the mass and, rather than participate, I observed.

I was dumbfounded by the sheer level of insanity that was present at the mass. I mean, I was really, really, really take aback by just HOW bizarre the whole ritual really is. I sat around watching nearly everyone else so mechanically recite prayers such that they sounded devoid of all meaning. The blessing of the Eucharist was in a brand new league of batshit crazy; I simply could not fathom the idea that people around me REALLY thought that a bunch of singing and bell-ringing turned a styrofoam-like wafer and some shitty wine into the actual body and blood of a zombie god.

So, now I'm really curious. I want to observe more church behavior and try to figure out whether or not these people REALLY believe in the things they're saying and doing. I hypothesize that unless they're all literally crazy, church-goers CANNOT actually believe in all that jazz. It's just too ritualized to have any real meaning left, unless each person gives it their own meaning. If the latter is the case, why even bother with church at all? It doesn't make any sense at all, and if people are capable of that level of irrationality, then this species is doomed.

So, yeah. I could say I'm not afraid of churches per se, but instead I am afraid of the implications church-based worship has for our society. I mean, really, regularly immersing oneself in a sea of total insanity cannot be healthy for one's psyche.

Sir_Xander

I am afraid of the implications church-based worship has for our society. I mean, really, regularly immersing oneself in a sea of total insanity cannot be healthy for one's psyche.

I agree; looking back on my own church experiences; most of these mass type ceremonies are completely ritualistic and when they are done I see the eyes of many of the people around me glaze over. Then later I ask them about it and they give me some bad excuse about it. The worst I've heard as of yet was "the spirit was touching my soul..."

merry_minstrel

So, now I'm really curious. I want to observe more church behavior and try to figure out whether or not these people REALLY believe in the things they're saying and doing. I hypothesize that unless they're all literally crazy, church-goers CANNOT actually believe in all that jazz. It's just too ritualized to have any real meaning left, unless each person gives it their own meaning. If the latter is the case, why even bother with church at all? It doesn't make any sense at all, and if people are capable of that level of irrationality, then this species is doomed.

Like I said, I think neither atheists nor believers should take a scientific approach to religion, IE mix the two, because they do not belong together. The approach to problems and observations that we call 'scientific' and the language and ways of argumentation used are not something that fell from the sky or is directly coded into our genes. Those are cultural techniques that developed over many centuries. When a 'religious' human carbonoid unit claims that those lumps of matter that we have come to declare as 'life' have been made out of nothing by the almighty and invisible Flying Spaghetti Monster/God/pick whatever name you want, and furthermore claims that this 'truth' overrides scientific theories, it (the unit) does not display its faith, but rather that it got two different cultural approaches mixed up.
Religion is a set of symbols, and you could also claim science to be a set of symbols (scientific theories are models used to describe reality, in other words symbols), therefore, mixing the two up would be like... say you get an ASCII text, but you decode it with UTF-8 or something. Naturally, the result is utter chaos and makes no sense at all. The people who pray to the utter chaos are stupid and don't know what the fuck they're doing.
Therefore, criticizing religion as such by waving the falsely decoded piece of data around may be considered significantly more intelligent than praying to the falsely decoded piece, but I still advise people to learn something about language and culture theory.

Rym

Like I said, I think neither atheists nor believers should take a scientific approach to religion, IE mix the two, because they do not belong together.

But every major religion on Earth has evidence of a secular origin. They're just as subject to the observations and evidence of science as anything else. To claim that one or other belief of humans is beyond the realm of understanding or inquiry is a laughable, dangerous, and simple-minded position.

Rym

When a 'religious' human carbonoid unit claims that those lumps of matter that we have come to declare as 'life' have been made out of nothing by the almighty and invisible Flying Spaghetti Monster/God/pick whatever name you want, and furthermore claims that this 'truth' overrides scientific theories, it (the unit) does not display its faith, but rather that it got two different cultural approaches mixed up.

Cultural relativism does not excuse fallacious or dangerous beliefs.

merry_minstrel

But every major religion on Earth has evidence of a secular origin. They're just as subject to the observations and evidence of science as anything else. To claim that one or other belief of humans is beyond the realm of understanding or inquiry is a laughable, dangerous, and simple-minded position.

Secular does not equal scientific. Yes, religion is subject to scientific observation as a phenomenon, and I consider it a very interesting phenomenon. I am merely criticizing the interpretation of the bible or whatever like it was a scientific paper or a report of what happened, because that's not what it is. Both believers and atheists often have this misconception.
An example: You know the whole Christmas story with Bethlehem and whatnot. The official position of the Vatican on that story is, that it is completely made up. Let me say that again: the Vatican is fully aware that this particular bible story has no historical roots whatsoever, but was made up during a meeting of church officials. They don't say it very loud, but they don't deny it either. My source is a friend (who is also an atheist, by the way) who is taught about Catholic theology by a Monsignor who is also a professor of theology.
What I want to show with this example: The church is not merely a bunch of people who don't know shit about science and logical thinking, because they wouldn't have survived that long if they were. There's more to that.

Cultural relativism does not excuse fallacious or dangerous beliefs.

Exactly, that was what I was trying to say. Believers, fundamentalists, who interpret the things written in the Bible literally don't know shit about their own religion and should remain silent.

I'll say it again: I'm not trying to defend intelligent design or the existence of an omnipotent mystical entity here. I'm not a believer, let alone a fundamentalist. All I'm saying is, that criticism in the form of "Ha, what's written in the bible is scientifically impossible, thus religion is a huge pile of bullshit" is not valid, because the bible has more to do with literature than with science.
I am also not claiming that the Christian belief is beyond the realm of understanding, I am merely pointing out that it has to be read and understood differently, maybe requiring skills that only humanities geeks possess. Trying to read everything mathematically is a laughable, dangerous and simple-minded approach

williammathis2

Getting back to the original topic, I to find it strange the desire to not enter a church by many atheists...I am a Christian and my best friend is an atheist and seemingly had the same issues for many years but got over it eventually, I always thought it odd that he hung out with many Christians such as my self but had some fear of the building. I likened it to being sure that the boogie man did not exist but being in a panic every time the lights went out.... to each his own...

Norvu

I ended up sitting down in the 5th row reading my book, not standing up, not singing or anything till it was over.

You're better off not going than being disrespectful. Even you had to go, you could have at least sat in the very back.

It was either stand outside in the blistering heat of Orlando in June or sit inside. I would have liked to of gone elsewhere, but, didn't have much option, thus I didn't really feel bad about not showing respect to something I have no respect for.

Norvu

I am also not claiming that the Christian belief is beyond the realm of understanding, I am merely pointing out that it has to be read and understood differently, maybe requiring skills that only humanities geeks possess. Trying to read everything mathematically is a laughable, dangerous and simple-minded approach

So because we know the bible (and various other religious texts) are mostly made up of bullshit, we shouldn't be mixing the two together? Problem is, when you have people who do believe that the bible is science and want that "science" to be taught in schools, you're messing with minds with the potential to do actual good rather than praising the holy jebus.

I don't think there's anything wrong with comparing the bible to the real world and seeing what is real and what isn't, it's probably the minority who were disbelievers in certain things in the bible (whether they came to that disbelief or never did believe to begin with) is how we have the basic fundamentals of biology or physics and even meteorology.

I (kind of) get what you're saying, I find mythology (including that found in the bible, such as Niphilim and Grigori) fascinating and am exploring Norse mythology as far as wikipedia will take me, since I don't really feel like searching around the tubes for other information (lazy).

I am tired (very little sleep) and I'm not sure if the above paragraphs are coherent or follow any logical path. I rambled, a lot. Read at your own digression.

tl;dr: We know religion is b.s. anyway, various claims have been proven wrong with science already. People still believe anyway, so who cares?

williammathis2

Flame on! lol.

Ametto

Norvu, for god's sake, please make your text black.

Double Z

I don't go into churches not out of fear, but on principle. I don't think they should exist, and if I go into one that sort of validates its existence.

I thought you liked visiting old places and buildings and all. Wouldn't you go to some old church building for just tourist, archaeological or architectonic business. Some of those churches are like castles.

Kate Monster

So, now I'm really curious. I want to observe more church behavior and try to figure out whether or not these people REALLY believe in the things they're saying and doing. I hypothesize that unless they're all literally crazy, church-goers CANNOT actually believe in all that jazz. It's just too ritualized to have any real meaning left, unless each person gives it their own meaning.

You are forgetting that in the mindset of most believers, the fact that their expressions of faith have been so ritualized is its very appeal. It can be intoxicating and powerful to be a member of a large group all doing the same or similar behaviors - particularly if this is supposed to have some greater or deeper meaning. The fact that these rituals have been carried out for hundreds or thousands of years makes it all the more intoxicating. I have more first hand experience with this phenomena with Born-Again Christians and Sufi Muslims, not so much Catholics, but I would think it could be the same. People feed off of each others energy and work themselves up into a "religious frenzy". More importantly, if you are a non-believer or non-participator, there is this odd social pressure for some to join in and be a part of what everyone else is doing.

...

Norvu, for god's sake, please make your text black.

Eh, I think he did that so people would read the warning at the bottom first. You can just select the text for better readability.