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Showdown: Knights vs. Samurai!

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  • It's a really really tough call. If we assume they both have full equipment and horses, the knight has the immediate advantage of heavier armor. And if he gets the samurai with the lance, game over. However, the samurai is much faster, and has a sharper blade. It's a classic case of slow guy with lots of defense and incredible damage versus faster guy who does less damage per hit, hits more often, and has less armor.

    I think it comes down to the abilities of the individual.
  • My friend (Who's a sword nut) put it pretty much like Scott put it: If the knight actually manages to hit the samurai, he's going down. But the samurai's tough to hit with a slow, heavy weapon like a broadsword.
  • Both in full equipment, and experts on everything that involves being a knight or a samurai, the samurai wins.

    If both are riding horses, the samurai has his bow and arrows with some armor piercing tips, if no such tips exist, kill the horse, knight falls, probably won't be able to get up soon enough.

    If both are on the ground, the samurai not only know how to slash, but how to stab, and since they don't rely on armor that much for protection, are more agile and accurate easily hitting the sluggish knight on the exposed articulations.
  • easily hitting the sluggish knight on the exposed articulations.
    That's if the armor has exposed articulations. If he's in full plate, it's going to take the samurai a lot longer to get through that armor than you think.
  • edited March 2008
    then simply out fights him... I'm guessing that full plate would tire a knight faster than a Japanese armor would a samurai. Like an out-boxer fighting an in-boxer, just make him run and chase you until he gets tired. Just provoke him to swing his best shots.
    Post edited by MrRoboto on
  • Just provoke him to swing his best shots.
    If he's smart, and the samurai really can't get through the armor easily, then a smart knight will just wait it out. Then it will all come down to who is the better warrior at the moment the samurai decides to get in close for the kill.
  • Armor advantage to the knight, perhaps a slight mobility advantage to the samurai.

    Most katanas, I think, would not be capable of penetrating plate armor, and their curved blades would be ill-suited to slipping into joints. I'm less certain about mail's effectiveness, but I think even that would pose a serious obstacle. A knight's lance or warhammer, on the other hand, would crush samurai armor with relative ease.

    On the other hand, samurai had a tradition of archery that European knights did not, and an arrow at close range could penetrate that armor.

    I foresee both getting one good shot off that, if it hits, would end the fight (lance charge vs. close-range arrow). If it came to close fighting, I think the knight would have an edge.
  • edited March 2008
    Dunno, the samurai have some pretty good disarming techniques and are wicked fast. And still, even if its just standing up, the knight would tire faster.

    I think it really boils down to which one you like most, as probably both are able to defeat the other.
    Post edited by MrRoboto on
  • Question, what type of armor is the knight wearing?

    If the knight is wearing standard full plate armor then the knight will win if the fighters are both off of horses as the sword is completely ineffective against it. If the knight is wearing more of a mail type of armor then the fight will probably be more balanced as mail allowed for the knights to have more maneuverability, while not necessarily matching the speed of samurai it would be close enough that it would not mater. Shields can also play into this as different types of shields provide different types of defense.

    However if they are fighting on horses then the samurai wins no matter what type of armor the knight is wearing, they specifically practiced horse archery while the European knights may have practiced archery but not horse archery.
  • Plate armor really isn't that slow. The weight gets spread over your body and if you know how to wear it you know how to fight in it. I've hear it compared to how much weight moderns soldiers carry on an A pack and that is just carried on the shoulders and hips. Samurai armor isn't much for defense against European weapons.

    Physically Europeans are bigger. That's kind of a big thing in a death match.

    Katanas are great slashing weapons. If the samurai knew to aim for the joints in the armor, he would be able to kill someone in plate armor. It would be hard but you could pull it off. The problem is the cutting edge on a katana is fairly brittle. If the knight locks blades or parries hard, he maybe able to damage the sword.

    A knight's sword is longer and more durable. I think that more then makes up for any speed difference. The speed comes into play only on the first strike. The guard is also meant to give an extra level of protection and punch someone. A knight could also lock his sword into his gauntlet.

    Shields are not just a defensive tool. They can be used to make openings for a counter strike or simply you can hit someone with it. Most of the time they had a reinforced edge. Having to cut through would not leave most blades pretty messed up. And yeah it's a huge defensive bonus. I do SCA fencing with about a 12 inch buckler and it's enough to piss most people off. I could not imagine trying to get a solid hit around a full size kite shield.

    A lance would beat a yari from horse back. It's bigger.

    Mounted archery samurai in spades. If the knight could cheat and get a crossbow, that would complicate things.

    I am really going to have to go with the knight for this one. Other then liking Excalibur a bit more then Seven Samurai, I don't have much to back this up.
  • Plate armor really isn't that slow. The weight gets spread over your body and if you know how to wear it you know how to fight in it. I've hear it compared to how much weight moderns soldiers carry on an A pack and that is just carried on the shoulders and hips. Samurai armor isn't much for defense against European weapons.
    It is not that it slows the wearer down immediately but that it is heavy and causes the wearer to tire quicker than a person not fighting in it, knowledge and experience mean nothing when you are to tired to move your arms.
    Katanas are great slashing weapons. If the samurai knew to aim for the joints in the armor, he would be able to kill someone in plate armor. It would be hard but you could pull it off.
    Samurai never faced European style armor, ever, and probably not know to go for the joints right off the bat, or at all for that matter.

    In addition to this is that slashing weapons absolutely sucks against full plate. Even if the samurai knew to attack the joints then his sword would get caught by the joints or would bounce off of the chain mail/leather under layer.
  • edited March 2008
    Samurai never faced European style armor, ever, and probably not know to go for the joints right off the bat, or at all for that matter.

    In addition to this is that slashing weapons absolutely sucks against full plate. Even if the samurai knew to attack the joints then his sword would get caught by the joints or would bounce off of the chain mail/leather under layer.
    From my sword nut friend:
    Meaningless. Katana had more than enough strength to stab, and full plate leaves some big gaps under the arms for movement purposes
    All you'd have to do is harass the knight until he expends himself and them kill him
    A katana isn't a dedicated slasher like a saber or a scimitar
    It's not like a guy in 100+.lbs of steel armor is gonna catch a guy wearing ten pounds of leather
    Post edited by Neito on
  • Horse, remember?
  • I personally believe that the samurai were better fighters in general, mainly because of how grueling their training was, starting from age 5 at the latest. They mastered one weapon and learned how to use others. I don't know much about how a night went through training over the years, but I'm don't believe they mastered the sword to the extent of the samurai. What the westerners really had on the japanese was their mastery of the sea. On land I personally think the japanese were better (assuming the weaponry is the same).
  • From my sword nut friend:
    Meaningless. Katana had more than enough strength to stab, and full plate leaves some big gaps under the arms for movement purposes
    All you'd have to do is harass the knight until he expends himself and them kill him
    A katana isn't a dedicated slasher like a saber or a scimitar
    It's not like a guy in 100+.lbs of steel armor is gonna catch a guy wearing ten pounds of leather
    What knight uses a saber or scimitar? They use a bastard sword or something like that. Those kinds of swords are more bludgeons than slashing weapons.
  • The Japanese also had guns....
  • edited March 2008
    Samurai, he could simply knock a knight over, who would never be able to get himself up again (cranes were used to get an armored knight on the horse) and his squire wouldn't be able to get him up in time again.
    Samurai used light armor, which made quick movements possible. So their Katanas would probably get blunt quick as it's made to pierce leather and not a full metal armor, however due to medical and sanitary reasons, even a small wound would get infected and the knight dies.

    Arrows fired from a quality bow could pierce a plate armor and bolt from a crossbow could penetrate a mail shirt.
    The Japanese also had guns....
    Weren't the Chinese first?
    Post edited by Jain7th on
  • RymRym
    edited March 2008
    The Japanese also had guns....
    Barely.

    Besides, if we fight contemporary forces against one another, there is scarcely a period in all of history where Japanese military technology could have faced Western technology or tactics even in equal numbers. A "one versus one" scenario is silly, since it would never occur. Heavily armored knights existed for cavalry charges, and were used much like armor is today. Different levels of armor were used by different classes of troops. A lone knight would never face a lone opponent unmolested in a real battle, and their armaments and tactics were never designed for such a contrivance. It's like asking which would win in an off-road race: a Jeep or an F-1 car?

    Consider:

    What were Japanese battle tactics and armaments like when the Roman legions marched? How about when Byzantine combined arms were the undefeatable super-force of the world? What about during the military renaissance of the late middle ages? The advent of Napoleonic tactics?
    Post edited by Rym on
  • edited March 2008
    The Japanese also had guns....
    Weren't the Chinese first?
    They were, but as far as I can tell the Japanese got them from Europe rather than from China. And not until the 16th century, at that.

    Also, plate armor did not weight "100s of pounds". I've seen full suits listed as weighing up to 50 pounds, and I think those were even parade armor (not meant for extended use, made bulky and ornate to be more impressive, and so forth).

    EDIT: And actual samurai armor - the metal-and-silk-cords kind - was not much lighter. A far cry from "ten pounds of leather".
    A "one versus one" scenario is silly, since it would never occur.
    Both cultures had dueling traditions of various kinds. So setting aside the improbability of a knight and a samurai meeting under circumstances where a duel might be arranged (which we are), a one-on-one combat is not so unreasonable.

    (edited yet again for formatting and typos)
    Post edited by Alex on
  • The Japanese, once introduced to guns, made some pretty good parallel innovations of their own, such as rifling for improved range and accuracy, a device to allow matchlocks to fire in the rain, and a limited form of trench warfare tactics. Japan at one point had more guns than certain European nations, such as England(cite). Gun control laws essentially froze all gun-related technological development early on, which was later exasperated by a cultural resistance to new military technology versus traditional weaponry.

    Japanese military technology and organization lagged considerably behind the Roman Legions when they were the foremost superpower, as well with the Byzantine forces. While the Age of Warring States took place during the equivalent time period of the Late Middle Ages, the lack of expanded training for footsoldiers and specialization of roles would continue to hinder Japanese military tactics for many years. Oda Nobunaga's reforms helped to make his military one of the most modernized in the world at the time, however many of his improvements were reversed by successive generations of rulers.

    The cultural shift that occurred in Europe during the latter part of the Late Middle Ages concerning firearms and standards of command and bravery did not have a chance to take root in Japan due to it's unification and enforced peace during the equivalent Edo Period. With its military technology virtually at a standstill, and no pressure to expand its borders beyond the home archipelago, there was no chance for Japan to develop, or even adopt, Napoleonic warfare tactics.
  • I thought that the Japanese versions of guns weren't as good as Europeans because the Japanese were not used to working with the types of metals used to make guns. I'm talking recently after the gun was introduced. I've heard that many samurai, despite their code, preferred bows and arrows because they were more accurate.
  • Yes, right after the arquebus was first introduced, Japanese craftsmen had a difficult time replicating the technology. But after a bit of experimentation, they were able to improve on the original designs and produce weapons with a higher caliber and greater accuracy, sacrificing reload times and manufacturing costs for increased individual effectiveness.

    Archery is one of the primary samurai traditions, and was the weapon of choice amongst samurai until the dominance of the sword in the Kamakura Period. A trained samurai with a bow and arrow is more effective than a single gunner. However, it is much easier to raise a platoon of gunners than a platoon of skilled archers, so the realities of war would move in favor of the guns.
  • What do people think of another fantasy match ups? Lets say a Roman gladiator vs the samurai ,or maybe a viking berserker vs. the knight???
  • I think we have fodder for Thursday shows until the end of time.
  • The fight also depends on the enviroment. If it's raining and muddy, I believe that the Samurai would definitely be at advantage.

    If they were out in a dessert, who would win? Would the knight lose because his armor is baking him alive? Or would his armor reflect the sun enough? The is also assuming that the knight had clothing underneath the armor too. Would the samurai suffer the same?
  • The is also assuming that the knight had clothing underneath the armor too.
    You have to have padding on under almost any kind of armor, otherwise you're screwed.
  • The is also assuming that the knight had clothing underneath the armor too.
    Youhaveto have padding on under almost any kind of armor, otherwise you're screwed.
    I recall reading that the crusaders got burned by their armor because they weren't wearing any clothing under their armor. I might be wrong.
  • ......
    edited March 2008
    Captain Picard vs. Scott Johnson!

    To just throw some names out there for consideration in a showdown.

    EDIT: No wait, Scott Pilgrim is the name of that comic guy right? I forgot.
    Post edited by ... on
  • Sephiroth beats them all.
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